Evangelicals and Trump

[Correll]

#854 reply to #832

1. It is not any "Authority" we have the makes our definition be the one that is true, but the strength of the supporting arguments.


2. In the past, I've seen demographic trends on the percentages of self identified Christians in the US. The numbers until recently, if I recall correctly were all very high. A group that is vastly majority something can be defined as that group.

3. My position is not that America was one denomination. Thus any differences between individual beliefs is irrelevant.

Why do you keep avoiding the Madison Question?

Because I don't care about your quibbling over different denominations or what have you. Especially very small fringe groups that were tiny minorities.

 

[Correll]

You do admit that in the year of our Lord 1787 the dominant religion in the United States was white Protestant Christian. That is the religion of all white ethnicity that you say gets to set America’s religious identity as founded as a Christian nation. That’s the demographic reality - There is no dispute about it. So since that is your baseline you need to carry Demographic reality forward to the present day.

Smooth. Excellent attempt to move the goal post.


My position was NOT that America was founded as a "white Protestant Christian Nation".


That is a Strawman you made up.


I can see that you are proud of it, but I respectfully decline your invitation to join you in playing with it.


It is yours, all yours, and has nothing to do with me.


When you are done playing dishonest games, we can move the conversation forward.

 

[Correll]

#895 reply to #18

That is marxism pretending to be faith,

How do you determine fake Christianity? I thought you say anyone who self identifies as a Christian counts as a Christian in your imaginary Christian Nation.

It is theological judgement. I read up on the one Pope's analysis and it is clearly heretical.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

# 904 reply to #902

My position was NOT that America was founded as a "white Protestant Christian Nation".

Then tell us exactly what was the most common race and denomination or sect of Christianity that inhabited the Thirteen Colonies before they became United States?

it’s not a matter of moving a goal post . You argue that America was founded as a Christian Nation based on a perceived majority of inhabitants, but you refuse to define what the term Christian means. We all know they were white.

America was not founded as a black or white or both Catholic Nation was it. Yet most of the Christians in the world were Catholic.

You won’t even say if being a Christian requires a belief in the sin and salvation aspects of both Catholic and Protestant Christianity.

How can you identify America founded as a Christian nation based upon majority membership in an established church but refuse to identify the churches to which they belong and ignore the fact that all the founders were white and male, and a large number of them were never sin and salvation Christians - Protestant or Catholic?

 

[Correll]

How can you identify America founded as a Christian nation base upon majority membership in an established church but refuse to identify the churches

I never mentioned "membership in an established church".


You keep bringing up all kinds of shit to try to distract from how absurd your position is.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#906 reply to #905

I never mentioned "membership in an established church".

I didn’t say you did. You tell me America was founded in the 18th century as a Christian Nation where you want to define Christian Membership identity exactly the same as part of a 21st Century universal body of multi-ethnic, racially tolerant and pluralistic sects where Catholics and Protestants get along.

You are lying. The Christian inhabitants at the time of our founding were a white and Protestant monoculture subdivided into separate denominations that pretty much agreed on one thing - Catholicism was bad, very very bad and even not Christian.

I speak the truth - you are lying. You can’t reverse historical reality by converting 18th Century white Protestant Christians into the situation that being Christian means today with most of them being Democrats anyway.

 

[Correll]

Then tell us exactly what was the most common race and denomination or sect of Christianity that inhabited the Thirteen Colonies before they became United States?

Why? Breaking it down by denomination does not make sense if the question is, was it a CHRISTIAN nation.

 

[Correll]

#906 reply to #905

I never mentioned "membership in an established church".

I didn’t say you did. You tell me America was founded in the 18th century as a Christian Nation where you want to define Christian Membership identity exactly the same as part of a 21st Century universal body of multi-ethnic, racially tolerant and pluralistic sects where Catholics and Protestants get along.

You are lying. The Christian inhabitants at the time of our founding were a white and Protestant monoculture subdivided into separate denominations that pretty much agreed on one thing - Catholicism was bad, very very bad and even not Christian.

I speak the truth - you are lying. You can’t reverse historical reality by converting 18th Century white Protestant Christians into the situation that being Christian means today with most of them being Democrats anyway.

That Christianity was more sectarian then, does not mean that the nation as a whole, was not a Christian Nation.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#909 reply to #908

That Christianity was more sectarian then, does not mean that the nation as a whole, was not a Christian Nation.

When you say America was founded as a Christian Nation based solely on the number of Christian inhabitants you are saying that America was founded as a white male dominated Protestant Christian Nation.

However It is still a lie when you leave out “founded as” and say the nation as a whole, was a Christian Nation.

If I have a treasure box and in it are 7 bars of gold worth $1000 and 3 dried dog turds in the shape of the bars of gold worth nothing and you want to buy it from me. But I will sell you ten pieces “as a whole” for $10,000 Because most of them are real bars of gold and you would gladly buy them.

A Majority of Christian inhabitants does not enforce some kind of oppression on the minority group that they must be identified the same as the Christians by virtue of living in a nation that has no requirement to be
Christian or religious at all.

You are messed up when you make up your own rules like that.

 

[Correll]

When you say America was founded as a Christian Nation based solely on the number of Christian inhabitants you are saying that America was founded as a white male dominated Protestant Christian Nation.

No, I'm not. You know how I'm not? Cause you just said that I said something else.


I used different words, because I meant something different.


That you need this shit explained to you, is pretty alarming.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

I used different words, because I meant something different.

You can use any combination of words you want but you cannot change the reality that when you say, based on Christian majority of Population, America was founded as white male dominated Protestant Christian Nation. It cannot be anything else because that is the reality at that point in history.

Why do you object to the true meaning of your Christian NATION IN 1787.?

 

[Correll]

I used different words, because I meant something different.

You can use any combination of words you want but you cannot change the reality that when you say, based on Christian majority of Population, America was founded as white male dominated Protestant Christian Nation. It cannot be anything else because that is the reality at that point in history.

Why do you object to the true meaning of your Christian NATION IN 1787.?

You asked me if I considered this nation to be a Christian Nation founded as a Christian Nation and I said yes.

You did not ask me if I considered this to be a White Male dominated Protestant Christian Nation.


So, you are moving the goal posts, to the end of ginning up a conflict so you can try to create the illusion that "white male dominated Protestant Christian Nation" is a threat to the rest of the country, to justify your vilification of your enemies and your anti-Christian bigotry and discrimination.

 

[Andylusion]

Post#871 AndyAndy for evidence

Third, I would be very interested in what evidence you have that this country was not created by white Christians.

Do you have any evidence to support that at all?

Post#875 I ask for clarification

Is it your understanding or argument that America’s founding fathers were all entirely white male Protestant Christian or something other than that?

Post#879 AndyAndy already betrays reason

I don't even think it matters.

Why have a discussion with someone about the 21st Century Christian urge to identify the 18th Century United States of America as to have been founded as a Christian Nation when said person, perhaps a Christian, says he doesn’t think evidence that a large number of our founding fathers openly rejected the sin and salvation Christian religious faith that has become the belief system of all the 21st Century Christians?

So Andylusion are you interested in the evidence you requested, because the evidence does not end with our second President John Adams who was a Unitarian who openly in written letters recorded his strong rejection of sin and salvation Christianity..

Knowing his rejection of sin and salvation Christianity and his religious self-identity as a Unitarian, why do you have an urge to identify America as founded as a sin and salvation Christian Nation.

Should not the urge be at least in part to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation since the evidence has shown that to be more accurate?

By the way my wife and were married in a Unitarian Church 20 years ago next month.

My comfort with and respect for the Unitarian Church and it’s influence on the Revolution and Constitution does not give me an urge to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation. That would be wrong because America was not founded with a religious preference to sin and salvation Christianity or any other religion or no religious belief at all.

I already proved conclusively from John Adams own words, that your claim that the country was not founded on Christian principals, is undeniable.

Now you want to move on, when you already lost the argument?

Ok, feel free. What's next?

My comfort with and respect for the Unitarian Church and it’s influence on the Revolution and Constitution does not give me an urge to identify America as founded as a Unitarian Nation.

To which my answer is.... so what? Who cares? Let's even pretend that every single person in government in 1776, was an avowed Unitarian, and John Adams wrote instead that the founding principals were not Christian, and were Unitarian instead.

What difference does that make to us today?

None? Then why does it matter so much to you, to deny what is clearly documented and true? What exactly is it, that you think you are arguing against?

 

[Andylusion]

# 904 reply to #902

My position was NOT that America was founded as a "white Protestant Christian Nation".

Then tell us exactly what was the most common race and denomination or sect of Christianity that inhabited the Thirteen Colonies before they became United States?

it’s not a matter of moving a goal post . You argue that America was founded as a Christian Nation based on a perceived majority of inhabitants, but you refuse to define what the term Christian means. We all know they were white.

America was not founded as a black or white or both Catholic Nation was it. Yet most of the Christians in the world were Catholic.

You won’t even say if being a Christian requires a belief in the sin and salvation aspects of both Catholic and Protestant Christianity.

How can you identify America founded as a Christian nation based upon majority membership in an established church but refuse to identify the churches to which they belong and ignore the fact that all the founders were white and male, and a large number of them were never sin and salvation Christians - Protestant or Catholic?

I still don't get why you think that matters.

There are hundreds of Christian Sects, that have similar fundamental beliefs in Jesus Christ the Lord.

Why would I care if the someone is Methodist, or Lutheran, or Presbyterian, or any other, if they all still believe in the core fundamentals of Christianity?

Had a church group go to Israel, and do baptisms in the Jordan River. Christians that live on the other side of the river, came out and celebrated baptism with the Americans on the west side. Why? Because even though they are a completely different sect, and language, and even country, all Bible believing Christians share common core values.

Being influenced by the core values of the Christian faith, is what matters. Which is EXACTLY what John Adams said in his letter to Thomas Jefferson, that I posted. John Adams said in no uncertain terms, that it was the core fundamentals of Christianity that defined the formation of this nation.

So again.... WHO CARES? What are you arguing about? And why do you think it makes any difference to the point?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Post #
#106.1 reply to #94

3. The former service of Wright does not give him a pass for his racism, marxism or anti-Americanism.

4. My opinion of Wright's "church" is supported by Wright's own racist and anti-American words, and his admission that his church was Black Liberation Theology.

6. Fuck you for calling me wacist.

#106.1 reply to #94

If you dont want to be a racist don’t call Obama’s Christian Church and Preacher anti-American because you don’t like Black Americans having their own Christian Theology that does not match what your idea of being a cultural Christian and proper patriot might be.

it is not anti-American to believe whatever one wants to believe about what it was that Jesus the man, or Jesus the savior and Son of God taught about addressing poverty and oppression and how the unTrump meek are to go about inherenting the earth.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#916 reply to #914

John Adams said in no uncertain terms, that it was the core fundamentals of Christianity that defined the formation of this nation.

Try putting in your own words what you think are the core fundamentals of Christianity that John Adams was referring to?

Can an atheist have the same core Christian principles as you.

 

[Andylusion]

Post #
#106.1 reply to #94

3. The former service of Wright does not give him a pass for his racism, marxism or anti-Americanism.

4. My opinion of Wright's "church" is supported by Wright's own racist and anti-American words, and his admission that his church was Black Liberation Theology.

6. Fuck you for calling me wacist.

#106.1 reply to #94

If you dont want to be a racist don’t call Obama’s Christian Church and Preacher anti-American because you don’t like Black Americans having their own Christian Theology that does not match what your idea of being a cultural Christian and proper patriot might be.

it is not anti-American to believe whatever one wants to believe about what it was that Jesus the man, or Jesus the savior and Son of God taught about addressing poverty and oppression how the unTrump meek are to go about inherenting the earth

I don't care anymore if you call me racists. You guys call everyone who doesn't agree with everything you say, racists. It means nothing, because you made it mean nothing.

Rev Wright was anti-American, because he said anti-American things repeatedly.

And yes, if you believe America is fundamentally bad, then you are by definition anti-American. That is a dumb statement to claim you can say "American is terrible in every way" and then claim "That's not anti-America".

Further, I find it hilarious that you posted about blessed are the meek. You realize that by calling others racists, that by definition makes you not meek?

Rev Wright was not meek. And that's why his followers were in poverty and oppression, as a righteous judgement from G-d.

 

[Andylusion]

#916 reply to #914

John Adams said in no uncertain terms, that it was the core fundamentals of Christianity that defined the formation of this nation.

Try putting in your own words what you think are the core fundamentals of Christianity that John Adams was referring to?

Can an atheist have the same core Christian principles as you.

Sure, an atheist can have the same core principles. That doesn't mean they are less Christian in their basis.

You do realize that for 8,000 years before, no Atheists of any stripe believed in equality under the law. That came about because of Christian belief.

As for naming all the core fundamentals of Christianity, that's a Ph.D paper at a seminary. There are way too many to list here.

As it relates to the topic at hand, I would say freedom, equality under the law, property rights, and so on. Pretty much the fundamentals we see in the Constitution (without the bill of rights, or amendments that allow for taxation and so on).

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#919 reply to #913.1

Let's even pretend that every single person in government in 1776, was an avowed Unitarian, and John Adams wrote instead that the founding principals were not Christian, and were Unitarian instead.

What difference does that make to us today?

Then the {Bold} actual lie that you are defending would easily be rejected and not exist today.

This is the lie. Don’t substitute your own words. Read it as it is so you can eventually come to understand why it is a lie and why it matters today.

It is a lie when 21st Century white evangelical Protestant Christians tell you that America was founded as a sin and salvation Christian NATION.

The actual shorter version slogan is a lie too:

America was founded as a Christian NATION.

Adams was not a sin and salvation believing Christian in 1787. Are you a sin and salvation believing Christian in 2020? It matters. How about a straight yes or no answer?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Rev Wright was anti-American, because he said anti-American things repeatedly.

For the record “what anti-American things?