Zone1 Did you exist before you were born into this life?

How did you come to that conclusion?

Wasn't the CMB supposed to be homogenous according to Spinoza's big bang cult?
Answer to the first question:

If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

But don't take my word for it, take his.


George Wald, Nobel Laureate, responds to the second question:

"There is good reason to believe that we are in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. How many such places are there? Arthur Eddington, the great British physicist, gave us a formula: one hundred billion stars make a galaxy, and one hundred billion galaxies make a universe. The lowest estimate I have ever seen of the fraction of them that might possess a planet that could support life is one percent. That means one billion such places in our home galaxy, the Milky Way; and with about one billion such galaxies within reach of our telescopes, the already observed universe should contain at least one billion billion -- 1018 -- places that can support life

So we can take this to be a universe that breeds life; and yet, were any one of a considerable number of physical properties of our universe other than it is -- some of those properties basic, others seeming trivial, almost accidental -- that life, that now appears to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere.

I can only sample that story here and, to give this account a little structure, I shall climb the scale of states of organization of matter, from small to great.

But first, a preliminary question: How is it that we have a universe of matter at all?

Our universe is made of four kinds of so-called elementary particles: neutrons, protons, electrons, and photons, which are particles of radiation. (I disregard neutrinos, since they do not interact with other matter; also the host of other particles that appear transiently in the course of high‑energy nuclear interactions.) The only important qualification one need make to such a simple statement is that the first three particles exist also as antiparticles, the particles constituting matter, the anti-particles anti-matter. When matter comes into contact with anti-matter they mutually annihilate each other, and their masses are instantly turned into radiation according to Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, in which E is the energy of the radiation, m is the annihilated mass, and c is the speed of light.

The positive and negative electric charges that divide particles from anti-particles are perfectly symmetrical. So the most reasonable expectation is that exactly equal numbers of both particles and anti-particles entered the Big Bang, the cosmic explosion in which our universe is thought to have begun. In that case, however, in the enormous compression of material at the Big Bang, there must have occurred a tremendous storm of mutual annihilation, ending with the conversion of all the particles and anti-particles into radiation. We should have come out of the Big Bang with a universe containing only radiation.

Fortunately for us, it seems that a tiny mistake was made. In 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in New Jersey discovered a new microwave radiation that fills the universe, coming equally from all directions, wherever one may be. It is by far the dominant radiation in the universe; billions of years of starlight have added to it only negligibly. It is commonly agreed that this is the residue remaining from that gigantic firestorm of mutual annihilation in the Big Bang.

It turns out that there are about one billion photons of that radiation for every proton in the universe. Hence it is thought that what went into the Big Bang were not exactly equal numbers of particles and anti-particles, but that for every billion anti-particles there were one billion and one particles, so that when all the mutual annihilation had happened, there remained over that one particle per billion, and that now constitutes all the matter in the universe -- all the galaxies, the stars and planets, and of course all life..."

 
Scripture is not evidence that spirits exist.

When you point to scripture to back an argument that spirits exist, you are committing an appeal to authority logical fallacy.

I can write scripture too. I can write that spirits do not exist.
Be my guest and go ahead and write your own scripture. We'll see how well accepted it will become.
 
Scripture is not evidence that spirits exist.
True.
Be my guest and go ahead and write your own scripture. We'll see how well accepted it will become.
Any cockamamie story that promises a here-after will be accepted:

The Rajneesh Movement.
Twelve Tribes.
NXIVM.
Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ.
Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God.
Branch Davidians.
Solar Temple.
Heaven's Gate.
... and many more.
 
If I existed before this life, nobody ever told me about it.

You'd think they'd at least leave a note.
We weren't supposed to know. That would ruin everything.
 
Any cockamamie story that promises a here-after will be accepted:
How about one that teaches that successful behaviors naturally lead to success and failed behaviors naturally lead to failure?
 
Any cockamamie story that promises a here-after will be accepted:
How about one that teaches that at any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices?
 
If I existed before this life, nobody ever told me about it.

You'd think they'd at least leave a note.
That’s a good question. The answer is the scriptures say we did. So, why do we not remember is the real question. The answer is a veil has been placed over our minds so we cannot see unless God removes it. He has done this with prophets and apostles to tell us about our pre-earth life. He sometimes removes it to help us over a difficult situation. And, upon death’s door he has shown people the light and spirits of those who passed on before.

It’s interesting that transvestites and gays will say they are in the wrong body. Who’s in the wrong body? The only possibility would be their spirits. That would mean our spirits are also male and female. Now, could this really happen? I would say no. That it’s a mental illness or a reprobate mind doing tricks on them. The latter is most likely true.
 
The universe recycles everything. If souls exist, then whatever they are is also recycled, for possibly the lifespan of the universe. A soul could be a random mix of whatever is available to make a soul at that moment, and then it goes back into the cosmic soup again at death. We could be amalgamations of tiny bits of billions of people and other organisms before us.
 
Here is scriptural evidence that we all existed as the spirit children of God the Father before we were born into this mortal world:

Man, Antemortal Existence of


What is the scriptural evidence that we did not exist prior to being born into this world?
Outside of any Biblical context, I have always believed that.
 
Are you not a Mormon, who believes another Gospel than the one the apostles preached?
Nope. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who believes in the gospel that all the prophets and apostles of Jesus taught including those of the Book of Mormon and those who restored his true church in these latter days. It is the one true gospel that Jesus taught. I don't however believe the false interpretations of modern Christians who misrepresent the teachings of Jesus and are apostate to his truths. Your presumption is a falsity of its own.
 
15th post
Nope. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who believes in the gospel that all the prophets and apostles of Jesus taught including those of the Book of Mormon and those who restored his true church in these latter days. It is the one true gospel that Jesus taught. I don't however believe the false interpretations of modern Christians who misrepresent the teachings of Jesus and are apostate to his truths. Your presumption is a falsity of its own.
Jesus was against war. Mormons enlist in the military to fight wars. I call that a misrepresentation of the teachings of Jesus and therefore the Mormon Church is an apostate.
 
Jesus was against war. Mormons enlist in the military to fight wars. I call that a misrepresentation of the teachings of Jesus and therefore the Mormon Church is an apostate.
So you are one of those who believe that whenever the people of God are attacked by hostile forces that we should simply let them kill us and destroy the people of God. The teaching of the Bible do not speak much of self defense. But we have another testament of Jesus called the Book of Mormon which does teach us that it is lawful to defend yourself against enemy attacks and that it is lawful in the eyes of God to defend your rights, liberties, families, and religion against enemy attacks and that God will help in our defense. (see Alma 43 and 44 of the Book of Mormon). Do you really believe that God wants us to sacrifice our lives to those who would destroy our freedoms, liberties, and belief in God? The Israelites often engaged in war and were preserved by God. And guess who their God was? He was known to them as Jehovah or the Great I AM. Jesus is and was the Great I AM. When Moses fled the Egyptians and came upon the Red Sea, the Lord (Jesus) opened the Red Sea and made an escape for the children of Israel but then killed the armies of the Egyptians in the Red Sea. Did Jesus turn the other cheek when the Egyptians sought the lives of the children of Israel? NO! He destroyed their armies by drowning them in the sea!!
 

Renounce War, Proclaim the Gospel of Peace​

Lesson 39

Sections 98–99, 106, 108

Theme​

As peaceful, law-abiding citizens, Latter-day Saints renounce war and proclaim the gospel of peace but will stand unto death in defense of their God-given liberties.

Theme Analysis​

  1. As a church, Latter-day Saints renounce war and violence as a means of settling disputes.
    1. To those who would violate their peace and freedom, Latter-day Saints first lift the standard of peace.
    2. They bear repeated offences with patience while exploring peaceful alternatives to war.
  2. True followers of God engage in war only when it is the last remaining way to preserve life and liberties, and they are directed to do so by the Lord.
    1. War is justified when life, liberty, and other God-given rights are threatened with extinction by an implacable enemy.
    2. Faithful Church members respond to their country’s call for military service not because they love war, but because defense of one’s freedoms and liberties is a paramount obligation.
    3. Latter-day Saints are loyal citizens of the countries in which they reside and as such are subject to the governments of those countries (see Article of Faith 12). Saints are not conscientious objectors, but stand ready to serve in the armed forces of their governments and obey the laws of the land in which they live.
  3. One of the most effective methods of eliminating war is to proclaim the gospel to the nations of the world.

Study Sources​

Student Manual​

Sections 98–99, 106, 108

Use material from Historical Background and Notes and Commentary to teach each revelation in its historical context.

Standard Works​

  • D&C 98–99, 106, 108. Keeping in mind the theme of this lesson, read and ponder these sections.
  • D&C 98:5–7. What is the responsibility of the Latter-day Saints pertaining to the laws of the land? See also Doctrine and Covenants 58:21–22; Article of Faith 12.
  • D&C 98:8. What blessing does the Lord want his children to always have?
  • D&C 134:1–7. What is the doctrine of the Church concerning the role and powers of government?
  • D&C 98:9–10. What characteristics should those whom we select for public office have?
  • D&C 98:23–31. How many times should one bear personal abuse patiently before retaliating? What is the law of retaliation as set forth by the Lord?
  • D&C 98:32–38. What should be our initial reaction when war is proclaimed against us? What should be our reaction if our initial offering of peace is refused? What further action should we take?
  • Alma 43:45–47. Under what circumstances did the Lord say the Nephites were justified in shedding blood? See also Alma 48:14, 23–25; 44:1–6; 46:19–20.
  • D&C 134:11. To what source should men look first for redress when wronged? What are all men justified in doing?
  • D&C 105:38–40. What special efforts should we make before retaliating against an enemy?
  • D&C 99:1–2, 8; 106:2; 108:6. What were John Murdock, Warren A. Cowdery, and Lyman Sherman called to do?

Basic Library​

  • Teachings, p. 252. It will take the wisdom of God to establish universal peace.
  • Teachings, p. 391. The duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their household is an eternal principle.
  • Discourses, pp. 366–67. God never institutes war; men do. Latter-day Saints stand for “peace, plenty and happiness to all the human family.”
  • Gos. Doc, pp. 411–12. True patriots are loyal citizens who defend their country’s honor and promote the public interest. Patriotism is more than expressing willingness to fight in the country’s defense.
  • Gos. Doc, pp. 417–18. Latter-day Saints disdain war and seek for peace. Real peace will come when the truths of God are universally understood and lived.
  • Gos. Doc, p. 419. War is wrong, but self-defense is right. Men are justified by God in defending their lives, their homes, and their liberties unto death.

Additional Sources​

  • First Presidency [Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., and David O. McKay], in CR, Apr. 1942, pp. 88–97. One of the finest statements ever given on the Church’s attitude toward war and involvement in it.
  • David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, p. 280. “Peace will come and be maintained only through the triumph of the principles of peace.”
  • David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, pp. 285, 287–89. “War is basically selfish.” What are the principal justifications for going to war?
  • Boyd K. Packer, in CR, Apr. 1968, pp. 33–36. We have a citizenship responsibility. Faithful Latter-day Saints do not refuse to serve their country because of conscientious objections.

Some Suggestions for Presentation​

(Ideas Other Teachers Have Used)

“Why Should I Be Willing to Go to War If Called by My Government?” (Case Study)​

John was in a real quandry. He had received a call from his government to report for military induction, but he didn’t want to go. He felt that war is immoral and illogical; it solves nothing. Thousands of young men have been killed or have returned home physically maimed or emotionally disturbed. Why should he take such risks? How should he respond to his country’s call? John, a faithful member of the Church, wondered if the Church took any position on the matter.

Invite students to briefly discuss John’s problem, and then point out that the Church does have a, very solid stand on the issues John raised. Read the following statement of the First Presidency to the class:

“Christ’s Church should not make war, for the Lord is a Lord of peace. He has said to us in this dispensation:

“Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace …” (D. & C. 98:16)

“Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing —by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.” (Grant, Clark, and McKay, in Conference Report, Apr. 1942, p. 94.)

The Church of Jesus Christ cannot and does not favor the initiation of war in any form. Point out that two principles guide Latter-day Saints in the presence of a threat of war or violence. These principles are given by the Lord in Doctrine and Covenants 98:23–37. Read the scriptures with the class and write the principles on the chalkboard. (1) A standard of peace is always lifted to those of warlike or violent disposition. (2) Repeated offences are borne patiently while peaceful alternatives are explored.

Share with the class the statement by the First Presidency from Transparency 18, “The Proper Attitude.”

What If War Is Forced upon Us? (Discussion)​

A class discussion could be held on the subject of the justifications for war. Questions could include the following:

  1. How did the righteous people of the Book of Mormon justify their wars? (see Alma 43:45–47).
  2. For what reasons would we be justified today in war preparations and maneuvers?
  3. Does God condone war? Under what conditions does he consider it justified? (see D&C 98:35–36).
You might wish to conclude by reading the following statement by President David O. McKay.

“There are, however, two conditions which may justify a truly Christian man to enter—mind you, I say enter, not begin—a war: (1) An attempt to dominate and to deprive another of his free agency, and, (2) Loyalty to his country. Possibly there is a third, viz., Defense of a weak nation that is being unjustly crushed by a strong, ruthless one …

“Paramount among these reasons, of course, is the defense of man’s freedom. An attempt to rob man of his free agency caused dissension even in heaven …

“To deprive an intelligent human being of his free agency is to commit the crime of the ages …

“So fundamental in man’s eternal progress is his inherent right to choose, that the Lord would defend it even at the price of war. Without freedom of thought, freedom of choice, freedom of action within lawful bounds, man cannot progress …

“The greatest responsibility of the state is to guard the lives, and to protect the property and rights of its citizens; and if the state is obligated to protect its citizens from lawlessness within its boundaries, it is equally obligated to protect them from lawless encroachments from without-whether the attacking criminals be individuals or nations.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1942, pp. 72–73.)

Note: If the question of a Latter-day Saint’s being a conscientious objector comes up, you might wish to refer the student to Elder Boyd K. Packer’s talk in general conference, Apr. 1968, pp. 33–36. This talk gives an excellent treatment of the principles which should govern our attitude about war and participation in it.
 
So you are one of those who believe that whenever the people of God are attacked by hostile forces that we should simply let them kill us and destroy the people of God.!
So you are one of those who believe that whenever people yearn for peace, freedom, and Democracy that it is an attack against God? THAT is proof the Mormons are war-mongering heathens who worship Satan. Jesus was a prophet of peace ..... not war. Mormons have joined forces of the Devil. Many, many, many of them are also serial murderers, such as:

  • Mark Hofmann
  • Ron and Dan Lafferty
  • Brian Mitchell
  • Arthur Bishop
  • Ervil LeBaron
  • John Lee
  • Tom Green
  • Warren Jeffs
  • Lori Daybell
  • Ted Bundy
 

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