Dems, don't let Repubs bamboozle you, America IS a democracy.

[Rumpole]

I did. You started in on the "minority rule" crap, a completely fraudulent concept. Blocking majority rule is NOT minority rule.

Majority rule is a shitty way to make decisions in society, and should only be employed when it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, freedom of choice is a much better way to go.

I'll repeat it and highlight the point which deals with your question:
You wrote:
Do you agree that removing limits on democracy make it untenable?
And what I wrote, which you are ignoring, answers that question:

What the framers did was try their best, knowing that they didn't know that what they were going to do would even work, was to temper the excesses of democracy by establishing a bicameral legislature, a house of representatives, a senate, and an electoral college, noting that, in none of these institutions, was it ever intended for minority rule, the intent was just to temper democracy's faults and to the best degree possible, preserve minority rights.

The stuff about 'minority rule' was only to counter the oft argued point by repubs that 'democracy equals mob rule', which implies that the framers didn't want democracy, which is majority rule. What they actually wanted is stated above, but it's still majority rule. Now, you may differ on that point but it is one that I"ve heard rather often from the right.

But all of this is getting side tracked, because my point was that America is a democracy, just a democracy of a certain type. Terms like 'Constitutional Republic" and 'representative democracy mean pretty much the same thing when applied to America.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Sorry, I don't engage with morons

/-----/ So you don't engage with yourself. That's a start. BTW, the Constitution is the law of the land and clearly states that we are guaranteed a Republican form of government. Is that clear enough for you, Rumphole?

 

[dblack]

But all of this is getting side tracked, because my point was that America is a democracy, just a democracy of a certain type. Terms like 'Constitutional Republic" and 'representative democracy mean pretty much the same thing when applied to America.

These arguments over classification are usually just proxies for other debates. Which is why I'm asking both sides, "why does it a matter?".

The "yes it is, no it isn't" naysaying is great fun, but what do you all think is at stake? What will Republicans lose if they admit that the US is a democracy? What will Dems lose if we call it a republic and omit the democracy descriptor?

 

[Cellblock2429]

These arguments over classification are usually just proxies for other debates. Which is why I'm asking both sides, "why does it a matter?".

The "yes it is, no it isn't" naysaying is great fun, but what do you all think is at stake? What will Republicans lose if they admit that the US is a democracy? What will Dems lose if we call it a republic and omit the democracy descriptor?

/——/ We won’t admit our Republic is a democRATcy and allow you lefttards to take away our Electoral College.

 

[dblack]

/——/ We won’t admit our Republic is a democRATcy and allow you lefttards to take away our Electoral College.

So, is that the main thing you're worried about? Nothing else?

From those of you on the other side, is that the main goal of calling the US a "democracy", to abolish the electoral college?

 

[dblack]

/——/ We won’t admit our Republic is a democRATcy and allow you lefttards to take away our Electoral College.

By the way, you know I'm not a leftist, right? Or maybe that's just a slur you throw out to insult me because I don't agree with you on something?

 

[Cellblock2429]

By the way, you know I'm not a leftist, right? Or maybe that's just a slur you throw out to insult me because I don't agree with you on something?

/—-/ Then stop pushing their leftist agenda.

 

[Cellblock2429]

So, is that the main thing you're worried about? Nothing else?

From those of you on the other side, is that the main goal of calling the US a "democracy", to abolish the electoral college?

/——/ Except for gun confiscation and abortion, when do leftist reveal their real motives?

 

[dblack]

/—-/ Then stop pushing their leftist agenda.

I'm not. Why do you think that?

 

[dblack]

/——/ Except for gun confiscation and abortion, when do leftist reveal their real motives?

??? I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you?

 

[Cellblock2429]

??? I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you?

/—-/ Any Conservative understands. Which makes me question your claim you’re not a leftist.

 

[dblack]

/—-/ Any Conservative understands. Which makes me question your claim you’re not a leftist.

You're a fucking partisan idiot. I don't care what you "question".

 

[Rumpole]

These arguments over classification are usually just proxies for other debates. Which is why I'm asking both sides, "why does it a matter?".

The "yes it is, no it isn't" naysaying is great fun, but what do you all think is at stake? What will Republicans lose if they admit that the US is a democracy? What will Dems lose if we call it a republic and omit the democracy descriptor?

As of the last few years or so, some hard core republicans (Mark Levin, for example, and others on debate forums) are going around saying 'America is not a democracy'. So, the question is, why are they saying it? Why? Because they need something to make themselves feel better about not having won the popular vote, what, only one in some 30+ years? That's why.

 

[dblack]

As of the last few years or so, some hard core republicans (Mark Levin, for example, and others on debate forums) are going around saying 'America is not a democracy'. So, the question is, why are they saying it? Why? Because they need something to make themselves feel better about not having won the popular vote, what, only one in some 30+ years? That's why.

That's not what they claim. In any case, speak for yourself. Why is it so important to classify the US as a "democracy"? What does it change if you "win" the argument?

 

[Rumpole]

/-----/ So you don't engage with yourself. That's a start. BTW, the Constitution is the law of the land and clearly states that we are guaranteed a Republican form of government. Is that clear enough for you, Rumphole?

"....that fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail." --Alexander Hamilton

Does the majority prevail in a Democracy? Yes.

Does the majority prevail in a Republic? Depends on the type, for a constitutional and/or a democratic Republic (but not a socialist republic), the answer is yes.

"Democracy, as in Republic", they are not mutually exclusive terms, ASSHOLE.

Both are broad terms with alternate narrow usages. Each have a narrow use which are redundant. That 'democracy' is not in the constitution doesn't change the fact, nor does it in any pledge.

 

[dblack]

"....that fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail." --Alexander Hamilton

Does the majority prevail in a Democracy? Yes.
Does the majority prevail in a Republic? Depends on the type, for a constitutional and/or a democratic Republic (but not a socialist republic), the answer is yes.

"Democracy, as in Republic", they are not mutually exclusive terms, ASSHOLE.













View attachment 930677

One more time. Let's try a thought experiment. Let's say you unequivocally "win" the argument. Everyone agrees the US is a "democracy". What's changed? What will changed based on that pronouncement?

 

[Staidhup]

{Caveat: those who are weaned on soundbites, one liners and snarky quips, who have subsequent short attention spans, ignore this post]

This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump
has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.

*Republic, Not A Democracy.

Some Republicans claim that 'proof' is in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands..."

Uh, no...I'm sorry to inform you on the right, especially republicans, but "Republic", "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", etc., these are NOT mutually exclusive terms. I know you think they are, but no, they aren't. They are general terms for basically the same principle, that a Democracy, using the broadest sense of the term, which is the most common use of the term, means a nation of liberty, where free speech, freedom of assembly, everyone of age has the vote, and other assorted virtues, prevail, as opposed to a monarchy or dictatorship or totalitarian non democratic nations.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he/they were using the term in parochial sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. They weren't using the term as it has been used in academia, journalism and public spheres as it has ben used for a very long time.
Now, just in case some of you on the right assert that my Fed #22 quote is out of context, but no, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so context wasn't necessary.

And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections. This IS democracy.

Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy. Thus only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics; there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, (of late) they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with and usually that is a representative democracy of some kind.

America is a Constitutional [Federal] Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AKA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. A number of western democracies, or rather, most of them, elect their president by direct, majority vote, yet are still known as 'representative democracies' precisely because of the fact that they have, like that of the US, an elected body of representatives who propose legislation on behalf of constituents. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America".

I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, well, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it: IN FACT, this idea that 'America is not a Democracy' became popular with Republicans right about the time they started losing the popular vote. Gee, what a coincidence, it seems they need to dis democracy in order to feel about about their winning the presidency via a particular fluke in the electoral college system. And don't tell me that not winning the popular vote doesn't bother Republicans. I know it really annoys Trump which is why he lied when he said that he would have won the popular vote had not 3 million illegals voted (in the 2016 election, which was a lie). No, y'all would definitely prefer to win the popular vote. Don't tell me otherwise, I just don't believe you.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism hence the "Lincoln Project".

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in America, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, those of you on the right, and Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......

View attachment 772373

Any country that has as many elections as America has is a democracy. No, that it's a 'representative democracy' doesn't alter the statement. Remember, the term 'Democracy' has both broad and parochial usages.

The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to ...

www.dailykos.com

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.

Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.

BINGO!

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

Definition of republic

1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

View attachment 772394

AKA 'representative democracy' AKA 'liberal democracies' AKA 'western democracies' AKA or just 'democracy'.

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

www.theatlantic.com

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.


And it so states right on the Government's own website:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/lesson-plans/Government_and_You_handouts.pdf

Democracy in the United States.

The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

Democrats, do not let Republicans bamboozle anyone on this point, America IS a democracy. Yes, there are times when it might be in doubt, but in principle, though our democracy is far from perfect, so with all of it's flaws, America is a Democracy.

Apparently you fail to understand what a democratic republic actually is. Comparing apples and oranges is difficult for some to comprehend until they fully read the federalist papers, and discourse between the two factions.

 

[Curried Goats]

One more time. Let's try a thought experiment. Let's say you unequivocally "win" the argument. Everyone agrees the US is a "democracy". What changes?

That's infinitely less important than what happens when we weaken the idea of democracy.

 

[Rumpole]

Apparently you fail to understand what a democratic republic actually is. Comparing apples and oranges is difficult for some to comprehend until they fully read the federalist papers, and discourse between the two factions.

A democratic republic is a democracy.

America is a democracy, in the broadest sense of the term. To say it's a Republic, but not a democracy, is not accurate. They are pretty much used interchangeably in many respects.

Now, if you want to be specific, as in representative democracy, that's fine, but I'm using 'democracy' in the broadest sense of the term.

The federalist papers are a point in history. If we look at history since antiquity, the grander spectrum of the term, how the terms are used in academia, etc., we see it's broader meaning than that which is offered by Mssr Madison.

Even madison's contemporaries believed his use of the term was aberrant.

 

[dblack]

A democratic republic is a democracy.

America is a democracy, in the broadest sense of the term. To say it's a Republic, but not a democracy, is not accurate. They are pretty much used interchangeably in many respects.

Now, if you want to be specific, as in representative democracy, that's fine, but I'm using 'democracy' in the broadest sense of the term.

The federalist papers are a point in history. If we look at history since antiquity, the grander spectrum of the term, how the terms are used in academia, etc., we see it's broader meaning than that which is offered by Mssr Madison.

Even madison's contemporaries believed his use of the term was aberrant.

Yes, it is. No, it isn't. Yes, it is, No, it isn't. Yes, it is. No, it isn't.

Still strokin'?