CDZ Charity is a failure of government - Discuss

Tommy Tainant

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
24,409
Reaction score
4,810
Points
290
Location
Y Cae Ras

In this story the tory minister is praising the efforts of foodbanks in helping folk to not starve.

But we pay taxes to live in a society where people are not going to starve. People should not be at the mercy of charity to put some food on the table.

Everybody pays taxes so they have a right to expect help when they go through bad times. Welfare has a dignity that charity has not got. It is time to move on from Victorian era social policy.
 

2aguy

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
84,369
Reaction score
23,095
Points
2,180

In this story the tory minister is praising the efforts of foodbanks in helping folk to not starve.

But we pay taxes to live in a society where people are not going to starve. People should not be at the mercy of charity to put some food on the table.

Everybody pays taxes so they have a right to expect help when they go through bad times. Welfare has a dignity that charity has not got. It is time to move on from Victorian era social policy.

The government is incompetent, and never does anything well or even adequately.......they have no investment in doing things well....no matter how badly they do things, the bureaucrats always have their jobs, the tax money keeps coming in and no one holds them accountable for their screw ups........that is the the problem with those who support bigger and bigger government...they can't see that simple truth.
 

2aguy

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
84,369
Reaction score
23,095
Points
2,180

In this story the tory minister is praising the efforts of foodbanks in helping folk to not starve.

But we pay taxes to live in a society where people are not going to starve. People should not be at the mercy of charity to put some food on the table.

Everybody pays taxes so they have a right to expect help when they go through bad times. Welfare has a dignity that charity has not got. It is time to move on from Victorian era social policy.

Welfare has no dignity the government takes money at gun point, and gives it to people who did not earn it, and losing much of the money to waste, fraud and abuse with a tiny amount actually making it to those who need it........Charity is people, on their own, helping other people, giving freely of their own time and money, without the threat of violence to take the money from some, to give it to others, and it actually is far more efficient and less wasteful of resources since the people who give the money are doing it freely, and target the money to those who actually need it....... you don't understand that which is why you think the way you do.....
 

occupied

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2011
Messages
25,032
Reaction score
5,736
Points
280
Hunger and want is a failure in the economy. Welfare and charity are just stop-gap measures to keep the rich from being eaten rather than a measure of concern for the poor. In America we require that dignity be forfeited when someone seeks help from the government. It's a humiliating process meant to discourage people. Charity is almost always an ineffectual gesture by well meaning people that does very little actual good.
 

fncceo

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
26,458
Reaction score
11,221
Points
950
That depends on your definition of government.

Is the role of government to maintain sufficient order to allow people to succeed, or fail, on their own?

Or, is it the role of government to provide for all the needs and wants of the people subject to it?

If you subscribe to the former, then charity isn't caused by government failure, but by the failure of the individual.

If you subscribe to the latter, then everything a government provides is charity.
 
Last edited:
OP
Tommy Tainant

Tommy Tainant

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
24,409
Reaction score
4,810
Points
290
Location
Y Cae Ras
Hunger and want is a failure in the economy. Welfare and charity are just stop-gap measures to keep the rich from being eaten rather than a measure of concern for the poor. In America we require that dignity be forfeited when someone seeks help from the government. It's a humiliating process meant to discourage people. Charity is almost always an ineffectual gesture by well meaning people that does very little actual good.
That depends on your definition of government.

Is the role of government to maintain sufficient order to allow people to succeed, or fail, on their own?

Or, is it the role of government to provide for all the need and wants of the people subject to it?

If you subscribe to the former, then charity isn't caused by government failure, but by the failure of the individual.

If you subscribe to the latter, then everything a government provides is charity.
Those are two narrow alternatives. The welfare state is based on the principle that we all pay in when we work and so we are all entitled to relief when we are struggling. No society can survive when a large proportion are going hungry so there needs to be some kind of safety net to catch folk when they fall. The last century has shown us that capitalism falls over from time to time so this is likely to happen every few years.
 

JoeB131

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
128,455
Reaction score
13,717
Points
2,220
Location
Chicago, Chicago, that Toddling Town
The government is incompetent, and never does anything well or even adequately.......they have no investment in doing things well....no matter how badly they do things, the bureaucrats always have their jobs, the tax money keeps coming in and no one holds them accountable for their screw ups........that is the the problem with those who support bigger and bigger government...they can't see that simple truth.
No, the problem is that we tend to see poverty as a moral failing, rather than an economic one.

You're poor? Well, it must because you have bad morals.... not because you are the victim of 400 years of racism or that we have criminal levels of wealth inequality.

We spend billions on expensive military toys that don't work, and a pittance on keeping our poor from starving... just enough to keep them from rioting and ... OH shit, they're rioting!!!

Welfare has no dignity the government takes money at gun point, and gives it to people who did not earn it, and losing much of the money to waste, fraud and abuse with a tiny amount actually making it to those who need it........C
What, are you actually saying the government is taking money from you at Gunpoint, and despite your personal arsenal, you let them do it? What about those Second Amendment Solutions you keep talking about?

Charity is people, on their own, helping other people, giving freely of their own time and money, without the threat of violence to take the money from some, to give it to others, and it actually is far more efficient and less wasteful of resources since the people who give the money are doing it freely, and target the money to those who actually need it....... you don't understand that which is why you think the way you do.....
Actually, charities are even more inefficient than the government.



-- The 50 worst charities in America devote less than 4% of donations raised to direct cash aid. Some charities gave even less. Over a decade, one diabetes charity raised nearly $14 million and gave about $10,000 to patients. Six spent no cash at all on their cause.
-- Even as they plead for financial support, operators at many of the 50 worst charities have lied to donors about where their money goes, taken multiple salaries, secretly paid themselves consulting fees or arranged fund-raising contracts with friends. One cancer charity paid a company owned by the president's son nearly $18 million over eight years to solicit funds. A medical charity paid its biggest research grant to its president's own for-profit company.
 

CrusaderFrank

Diamond Member
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
116,506
Reaction score
29,729
Points
2,220
Location
Location, location
Hunger and want is a failure in the economy. Welfare and charity are just stop-gap measures to keep the rich from being eaten rather than a measure of concern for the poor. In America we require that dignity be forfeited when someone seeks help from the government. It's a humiliating process meant to discourage people. Charity is almost always an ineffectual gesture by well meaning people that does very little actual good.
Just look at Venezuela!
 

fncceo

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
26,458
Reaction score
11,221
Points
950
The welfare state is based on the principle that we all pay in when we work and so we are all entitled to relief when we are struggling.
In a welfare state, most will pay in indefinitely and some will be entitled indefinitely.

When being supported by others goes from being charity to an entitlement, there ceases to be any impetus to restrict it to the times when we are struggling.

Charity has always come with strings. If you pray the right prayers, we feed you. Attend our meetings and we feed you.

Entitlements, by definition, come with no strings.
 

pknopp

Gold Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
21,413
Reaction score
4,083
Points
215
Hunger and want is a failure in the economy. Welfare and charity are just stop-gap measures to keep the rich from being eaten rather than a measure of concern for the poor. In America we require that dignity be forfeited when someone seeks help from the government. It's a humiliating process meant to discourage people. Charity is almost always an ineffectual gesture by well meaning people that does very little actual good.
Just look at Venezuela!
We are Venezuela without the ability to just print money and that is not going to last forever.
 

JoeB131

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
128,455
Reaction score
13,717
Points
2,220
Location
Chicago, Chicago, that Toddling Town
In a welfare state, most will pay in indefinitely and some will be entitled indefinitely.

When being supported by others goes from being charity to an entitlement, there ceases to be any impetus to restrict it to the times when we are struggling.

Charity has always come with strings. If you pray the right prayers, we feed you. Attend our meetings and we feed you.

Entitlements, by definition, come with no strings.
You have a point there.

So you have "welfare" for poor people, and they are looked down upon if they get Medicaid, Section 8, Food Stamps or TANF. Those lazy welfare people. Oh, wait, they have jobs that only pay minimum wage. Well, those lazy welfare people not getting good jobs.

Meanwhile, you have middle class entitlements like Social Security, Medicare, Veteran's Benefits and Unemployment Insurance, which goes to mostly middle class white people. It can also be abused in various ways... and are. But we are fine with that because we've "earned" it.
 

JoeB131

Diamond Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
128,455
Reaction score
13,717
Points
2,220
Location
Chicago, Chicago, that Toddling Town
How is it not immoral then the expect taxpayers to bail you out of your bad business decisions?
I frankly wondered that in 2008 - 2009, when we bailed out AIG, Well-Fargo, GM, Chrysler and all the other places that made bad business decisions.

Socialism for me but not for thee.
 

fncceo

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
26,458
Reaction score
11,221
Points
950
Oh, wait, they have jobs that only pay minimum wage.
If there is a single non-criminal in America working a job involuntarily, let them know about the 13th Amendment.
 

miketx

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
85,577
Reaction score
24,700
Points
2,220
Hunger and want is a failure in the economy. Welfare and charity are just stop-gap measures to keep the rich from being eaten rather than a measure of concern for the poor. In America we require that dignity be forfeited when someone seeks help from the government. It's a humiliating process meant to discourage people. Charity is almost always an ineffectual gesture by well meaning people that does very little actual good.
That's because people like you steal it.
 

fncceo

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
26,458
Reaction score
11,221
Points
950
You're poor? Well, it must because you have bad morals...
Really?

View attachment 406880

To live in poverty isn't immoral.

To demand someone (or everyone) else to raise you out of your poverty is.
How is it not immoral then to expect taxpayers to bail you out of your bad business decisions?
It's exceptionally immoral.

Just as bailing out the individual rewards bad life decisions, bailing out a company rewards bad business decisions.
 

New Topics

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top