Zone1 Can We Agree Consent is primary?

[Zincwarrior]

Of course it does.

No. This thread is about whether minor autonomy and consent, not minor's assaulting others.*
Historically, minors did not have the right to consent, nor contract unless they had been emancipated - typically via court.
In practice that gets squishy in teen years, but its an excellent policy to prevent fraud and harm.

*This guy's breath assaults me every time he yawns.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Well, no, actually. You kind of get this one wrong right off the bat. Age of consent varies from state to state. Most states it's actually 16. Very few states require you to wait until you are 18 to have the sexy fun times.

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Most states also have "Romeo and Juliet" laws that prevent the exact kind of scenario you lay out of teens being criminally prosecuted for being horny teens.

FURTHERMORE, when a teen commits an awful crime, you "conservatives" are the first ones to demand he be tried as an adult. Heck, until SCOTUS outlawed it, we were one of the few countries that still executed people for crimes they committed as children.

So your argument is flawed right off the bat.

Regardless of what the actual age is for whatever state, it doesn't change my point. If you are under the age of consent, all of logic still applies.

Um, by your logic, a minor shouldn't be able to consent to ANY surgery.

How silly. It depends on what the surgery is for.
1. If the surgery is to repair damaged portions of the body, that's clearly in the best interest of the child's physical well-being.
2. If a surgery is unnecessary and irreversibly harms the child for no reason, that's immoral and completely against the well-being of the child.

So, nice try I guess?

Of course, very few minors are getting ANY kind of GAC, and the few who do have their parents on board, in most cases, unless their parental rights have been suspended.

Well the numbers are skewed, as many rogue hospitals have been performing them in secret. It happened at Vanderbilt Medical Center, and took people whistle-blowing and putting pressure on them before they admitted to it.

You will complain about the 5000 or so gender dysphoric minors getting hormone treatments, but have no problem with millions of even younger kids being given SSRIs to make them more manageable in the classroom.

Again, how silly. Hormone treatments in the quantities and strategies for kids cause irreversible harm. An SSRI you can go on and go off, and there's no permanent damage that harms your development, reproductive system, etc.

And it might be at some point, we may consider that GAC wasn't the right way to treat Gender Dysphoria. But all the Scientific evidence at THIS point (when you get the religious objections out of the way) indicates that it provides benefits.

It has nothing to do with religion, and "all" scientific evidence absolutely doesn't indicate that. There are a few hack studies that trans activists like to throw around, but they are all well-outside of accepted standards to be taken as any sort of reputable source. Meanwhile.. these points remain:

1. A child should not have unneeded surgery that irreversibly harms their completely healthy body. To do so violates their consent.
2. Suicide levels are insanely high in this group.. and there's a reason: They are psychologically unstable. And, the evidence points to a maintained high suicide rate after surgery, hormonal treatment, etc. Pretty much all kids who get misdirected into trans ideology and are left alone just end up being gay. The kid has to be groomed by teachers, entertainers, society, psychologists, and parents to seek trans ideology.

You really ought to have more compassion for these kids and desire to guide them to more healthy mindsets and ideologies. You use them like freaks to virtue signal for yourself.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

You think the young make that decision independently, without informed consent from their parents, psychologists, and their doctors?

Well, what if a child decided he indentifies as a one armed person? They feel completely depressed and unstable having 2 arms. Parents, a weirdo doctor, and a twisted psychologist determine that for the mental health of the child, they are going to cut off this kid's arm.

Would you be okay with that?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

What you describe doesn't happen.

So you contend that there has never been a sex change surgery on a minor? I know even celebrity examples. So, you're incorrect.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

This notion that you should live at home and be in school until your mid-20s- this delayed adulthood- is a large source of many of our social problems.

Thank your woke, leftist, democrat party for that.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Honestly, no.

What's perpetuating this is the 40 year war the One Percenters have been waging on the working class.

WIth you "Traditional Value" types cheering them on all the way.

Or, you're just jealous because you don't have power, so you need to villainize and deconstruct the current system to try to cut those above you down.

 

[BULLDOG]

Well, what if a child decided he indentifies as a one armed person? They feel completely depressed and unstable having 2 arms. Parents, a weirdo doctor, and a twisted psychologist determine that for the mental health of the child, they are going to cut off this kid's arm.

Would you be okay with that?

You're more stupid than I thought. Where do you come up with such crazy ideas?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

You're more stupid than I thought. Where do you come up with such crazy ideas?

Because it's a hypothetical that tests your logic. The situation fills the exact same factors. I get it, you're busted here, and have to resort to ad hom attacks because you're beat.

 

[candycorn]

Its an interesting thread. Can a minor be forced to use their body against their will for the benefit of a fetus/unborn baby, permanently changing their body and increasing risk of harm or death?

If the minor is a female, in the OP’s mind...of course.
If the minor is a male...no way in hell.

It would be refreshing if he just came clean and said what we all know he is thinking.

 

[BULLDOG]

Because it's a hypothetical that tests your logic. The situation fills the exact same factors. I get it, you're busted here, and have to resort to ad hom attacks because you're beat.

Of course you claim some sort of victory because you're nuts

 

[Concerned American]

What you describe doesn't happen. But something that does happen is that Christians in the U.S. lead the world in circumcisions.

Wow, that's a stretch--you're equating circumcision with gender transition surgery on a prepubescent child? You should seek help. You are mentally unstable.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Of course you claim some sort of victory because you're nuts

Well you’d have to explain how the hypothetical isn’t valid when it contains all of the same factors. You can’t, so you just have to run away

 

[BULLDOG]

Well you’d have to explain how the hypothetical isn’t valid when it contains all of the same factors. You can’t, so you just have to run away

Because it is far too absurdly stupid to be a valid comparison. Wanting to have a limb amputated for no valid reason is not something that would ever happen, to say nothing about the parents, doctors, and psychiatrists that must approve it. You don't get that?

 

[JoeB131]

Thank your woke, leftist, democrat party for that.

No, that's your capitalist idiots destroying Unions and the middle class. Used to be, you graduated HS, joined the Union, and were able to provide a living to your family in a few years.

Now we have people delaying adulthood into their 30s, rushing to make a baby before the Biological Clock runs out.

 

[JoeB131]

Regardless of what the actual age is for whatever state, it doesn't change my point. If you are under the age of consent, all of logic still applies.

Um, no, you made a comment that a 19-year-old can be jailed for having sex with a 17-year-old, and that's simply not true in most of the country. In fact, it's not true anywhere. Now, a 25 year old can be jailed for having sex with a 15 year old, absolutely

How silly. It depends on what the surgery is for.
1. If the surgery is to repair damaged portions of the body, that's clearly in the best interest of the child's physical well-being.
2. If a surgery is unnecessary and irreversibly harms the child for no reason, that's immoral and completely against the well-being of the child.

Ah, here we go, that word "immoral", coming from the people who throw little brown children into concentration camps because their parents don't have papers.

Well the numbers are skewed, as many rogue hospitals have been performing them in secret. It happened at Vanderbilt Medical Center, and took people whistle-blowing and putting pressure on them before they admitted to it.

So you can't prove that it's happening in any real numbers, so you just make things up?

Not sure why you think people violating HIPAA is a good thing, but never mind.

Again, how silly. Hormone treatments in the quantities and strategies for kids cause irreversible harm. An SSRI you can go on and go off, and there's no permanent damage that harms your development, reproductive system, etc.

You're kidding, right? We are raising a generation of Ritalin Zombies, for no other reasons that many teachers just suck at classroom management. But you freak out when a handful of kids get hormone treatments (not all of it for Gender Affirming Care.)

Um, yeah, SSRI's are harmless. That's why the commercials have 30 seconds of an announcer speed-reading through all the harmful side effects.

It has nothing to do with religion, and "all" scientific evidence absolutely doesn't indicate that. There are a few hack studies that trans activists like to throw around, but they are all well-outside of accepted standards to be taken as any sort of reputable source. Meanwhile.. these points remain:

Actually, the Scientific studies consistently show benefits to GAC.

The benefits of gender-affirming care

Together, we can make health care inclusive for trans youth

sph.washington.edu

Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care - PubMed

This study found that gender-affirming medical interventions were associated with lower odds of depression and suicidality over 12 months. These data add to existing evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care may be associated with improved well-being among TNB youths over a short period...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(24)00439-7/fulltext

2. Suicide levels are insanely high in this group.. and there's a reason: They are psychologically unstable. And, the evidence points to a maintained high suicide rate after surgery, hormonal treatment, etc. Pretty much all kids who get misdirected into trans ideology and are left alone just end up being gay. The kid has to be groomed by teachers, entertainers, society, psychologists, and parents to seek trans ideology.

Suicide is high among transgenders because they have to deal with bigots every day.

No one is being groomed. This is one of your mythologies.

You really ought to have more compassion for these kids and desire to guide them to more healthy mindsets and ideologies. You use them like freaks to virtue signal for yourself.

I have plenty of compassion for these kids being mistreated by religious types who want to impose their religion on the rest of us.

 

[Hafar1014]

Um, no, you made a comment that a 19-year-old can be jailed for having sex with a 17-year-old, and that's simply not true in most of the country. In fact, it's not true anywhere. Now, a 25 year old can be jailed for having sex with a 15 year old, absolutely



Ah, here we go, that word "immoral", coming from the people who throw little brown children into concentration camps because their parents don't have papers.




So you can't prove that it's happening in any real numbers, so you just make things up?

Not sure why you think people violating HIPAA is a good thing, but never mind.



You're kidding, right? We are raising a generation of Ritalin Zombies, for no other reasons that many teachers just suck at classroom management. But you freak out when a handful of kids get hormone treatments (not all of it for Gender Affirming Care.)

Um, yeah, SSRI's are harmless. That's why the commercials have 30 seconds of an announcer speed-reading through all the harmful side effects.



Actually, the Scientific studies consistently show benefits to GAC.

The benefits of gender-affirming care

Together, we can make health care inclusive for trans youth

sph.washington.edu

Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care - PubMed

This study found that gender-affirming medical interventions were associated with lower odds of depression and suicidality over 12 months. These data add to existing evidence suggesting that gender-affirming care may be associated with improved well-being among TNB youths over a short period...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(24)00439-7/fulltext

Suicide is high among transgenders because they have to deal with bigots every day.

No one is being groomed. This is one of your mythologies.


I have plenty of compassion for these kids being mistreated by religious types who want to impose their religion on the rest of us.

A 19 year old can be charged with statuary rape with a 17 year old. The exception is when both are under 16 a 3 year difference in age determines the charges. In those cases there will be mandatory treatment in a locked residential treatment center. States vary but are mostly alike.

Suicide is high after gender affirming surgery because the underlying mental illness is never addressed.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden - PMC

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results​

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions​

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire i

 

[JoeB131]

A 19 year old can be charged with statuary rape with a 17 year old. The exception is when both are under 16 a 3 year difference in age determines the charges. In those cases there will be mandatory treatment in a locked residential treatment center. States vary but are mostly alike.

Not really. Look up "Romeo and Juliet" Laws. Most states, 16 or 17 is the age of consent. No one is getting locked up for that.

Suicide is high after gender affirming surgery because the underlying mental illness is never addressed.

No, actually it's lower compared to transgender people who don't get GAC.

The way you get to the higher number is comparing them to cisgendered people, which is comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Hafar1014]

Not really. Look up "Romeo and Juliet" Laws. Most states, 16 or 17 is the age of consent. No one is getting locked up for that.



No, actually it's lower compared to transgender people who don't get GAC.

The way you get to the higher number is comparing them to cisgendered people, which is comparing apples to oranges.

Its not the age of consent when two minors are involved. In PA a 16 year old can have sex with a 13 year old and not be charged. They will be mandated to residential treatment for therapy. But if the age difference is over 3 years then it is a crime. I had a few cases like this when I worked at Foundations For Behavioral health. Some were very sad

 

[JoeB131]

Its not the age of consent when two minors are involved. In PA a 16 year old can have sex with a 13 year old and not be charged. They will be mandated to residential treatment for therapy. But if the age difference is over 3 years then it is a crime. I had a few cases like this when I worked at Foundations For Behavioral health. Some were very sad

Um, what does that have to do with anything?

The OP claimed a 19 year old would be charged with rape for having consensual sex with a 17 year old, and that's simply not true.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Because it is far too absurdly stupid to be a valid comparison. Wanting to have a limb amputated for no valid reason is not something that would ever happen, to say nothing about the parents, doctors, and psychiatrists that must approve it. You don't get that?

It fits the criteria though. The fact that such an immoral and outrageous scenario could happen under your logic and prescription shows how obtuse it is