CDZ Burkini ban overturned

[oldsoul]

Couldn't disagree more. Demanding subservience is a precursor to abuse.

It is you who equates subservience with demanding.

So there's willing subservience? Are you sure it isn't strongly implied, and thus followed by the women?

There is subservience in nearly all situations involving more than one person, this is not unique to marriage. You, I assume, are subservient to the government in the sense that you (willingly or not) obey the rules (laws) and regulations of the land. You are subservient to your "boss" (even if you are self-employed, you have customers) in the sense that you follow the rules to serve the customer. So, yes, there is willing subservience, it is just not referred to as such most of the time.

Definitely not what we're talking about here in light of what Christianity demands of women (subservience in ALL things).

Please define what you mean here. In the tradition I was raise in (Lutheran) there are no such "demands" that do not go both ways.

Employer/employee relationship is contractual, so I don't think "subservience" applies. My clients can be fired at anytime if I don't want to work for them.

I don't care what "tradition" you were raised in, any Christian religion that believes the New Testament is the divine word of god demands that women shut up and listen to men in all things. Again, Timothy 2:12.

You cite the verse as if it applies to all aspects of life, when in reality it does not. Read the entire chapter and you will find that Timothy was discussing how worship should be conducted, not life in it's entirety. So, your reference fails to support your claim.

 

[320 Years of History]

Couldn't disagree more. Demanding subservience is a precursor to abuse.

It is you who equates subservience with demanding.

So there's willing subservience? Are you sure it isn't strongly implied, and thus followed by the women?

There is subservience in nearly all situations involving more than one person, this is not unique to marriage. You, I assume, are subservient to the government in the sense that you (willingly or not) obey the rules (laws) and regulations of the land. You are subservient to your "boss" (even if you are self-employed, you have customers) in the sense that you follow the rules to serve the customer. So, yes, there is willing subservience, it is just not referred to as such most of the time.

Definitely not what we're talking about here in light of what Christianity demands of women (subservience in ALL things).

Please define what you mean here. In the tradition I was raise in (Lutheran) there are no such "demands" that do not go both ways.

Employer/employee relationship is contractual, so I don't think "subservience" applies. My clients can be fired at anytime if I don't want to work for them.

I don't care what "tradition" you were raised in, any Christian religion that believes the New Testament is the divine word of god demands that women shut up and listen to men in all things. Again, Timothy 2:12.

You cite the verse as if it applies to all aspects of life, when in reality it does not. Read the entire chapter and you will find that Timothy was discussing how worship should be conducted, not life in it's entirety. So, your reference fails to support your claim.

That passage's interpretation depends on a hapax legomenon, one of many in the Bible? How can one know what to make of such passages, particularly ones that conflict with modern principles, other than to apply the then (1st century Greek?) accepted meaning and call it a day?

While Paul might not be considered feminist in the context of our modern culture, he did much to establish himself as a catalyst for the reexamining of gender roles in the first century C.E. Pronouncing that there is “neither male nor female” in Christ (Galatians 3:28), Paul recognizes a woman’s right to participate in public prayer alongside Christian men (1 Corinthians 11:5, 13). In a display of cultural radicalism, Paul entreats the church in Rome to “greet Priscilla and Aquila, [his] co-workers in Christ Jesus” (Romans 16:3), not only recognizing Priscilla as a fellow apostle, but naming her before Aquilla, a man and her own husband, as a gesture of respect. “Far from being repressive and chauvinistic,” Biblical scholar Robin Scroggs asserts, “Paul is the one clear and strong voice in the New Testament speaking for the freedom and equality of women.”

To my mind, Paul's writings must be read thematically not literally. It seems to me that Paul needs to be considered not literally and in terms of modern sensibilities but rather as the man of his day that he surely was. That, of course, poses difficulties and dichotomies for literal readers of the Bible. I'm not a literalist, so I don't have a problem with Paul. I can easily look at passages such as the one in Timothy as Paul just talking about life in the first century rather than something God or Jesus has ordained.

Even modern theists think and write about matters that have nothing to do with God, right? Why should Paul have been any different? I mean look at this thread about French legislation over Islamic women and practice that has now headed down a road of Biblical interpretation. Paul surely could get off topic too.

 

[oldsoul]

I don't care what "tradition" you were raised in, any Christian religion that believes the New Testament is the divine word of god demands that women shut up and listen to men in all things. Again, Timothy 2:12.

I also submit you Proverbs 18:22:
"He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the LORD."
Proverbs 18:22 He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the LORD.
Care to regail us again with your misinterpretations of the Bible?

 

[KokomoJojo]

Cracks me up, like the woman in Florida who sued to where her burqa in her DL picture. I'm thinking "doesn't your religion tell you that you can't drive?"

Dont tell me let me guess, the state told her to get fucked and she had to obey the well established state religion which is to show her face?



.

 

[GLASNOST]

Cracks me up, like the woman in Florida who sued to where her burqa in her DL picture. I'm thinking "doesn't your religion tell you that you can't drive?"

Dont tell me let me guess, the state told her to get fucked and she had to obey the well established state religion which is to show her face?.

I think you're on to something. That could very be her dilemma. She might have got herself into some trouble with the cops earlier and they told her "If you ever show your face around here again, You're gonna' be in REAL trouble!"

 

[OldLady]

Should women be forced to wear bikini's at a beach?

In free societies, we have choices of what to wear. We have cultural guidelines on MINIMAL standards (cover up the naughty bits) but we've never had cultural guidelines mandating maximum standards (ie you are not allowed to cover your legs and arms). We have some standards that come into play with the requirements of certain professions or public safety, but other than that we are free to choose.

Why, suddenly, is that freedom of choice being removed from certain classes of people?

One group calls it "oppression of women". Yet, isn't removing choice "oppression"? People who bring this up think there is never any choice when it comes to Muslims. They don't make the same argument for other religions where observent women are required to cover their heads and wear long sleeved clothing that covers their legs out of respect for their religious views on modesty.

The French tried to ban "burkinis" - but why? Should a woman be forced to wear a body baring bathing suit against her will any more then she should be forced to don a burka?

Banning burkas is more understandable - public safety comes into it. But burkinis?

The reason is very simple; because people are disgusted with islamism already...

How rational they claim to be, human beings are irrational creatures at the end of the day.
Nobody should expect French to go through a long reasoning process before reacting to certain stimuli put out there by the islamist ideology.

This is just the beginning...

Court might have overturned this ban, based on the laws...
But remember;
people have the power to make new laws, or change current laws...

This is going to get uglier in the near future...

Nobody should expect French to go through a long reasoning process before reacting to certain stimuli
Of course we should expect it, as we expect it of ourselves before instituting laws.
Human beings have the capacity to be rational and we'd best use it, else your dream of living in a primitive primate community will come true.

 

[OldLady]

As we know by now, the government and administration is completely out of touch with public feeling about Islam and hasn't got a clue how to control it either!

The popular move to ban burkinis was because quite rightly it reminded everybody of its link to fundamental Islam and all its problems and terrorism, including the latest atrocities in Nice.

French people go to the beach to relax and suddenly they see these alien apparitions lying next to them, which makes them feel very uncomfortable.

Also they wonder whether these people are intentionally making a religious statement or just couldn't care less.

Either way the French have the right to insist on their culture not being swamped by the barbaric culture of the 7th century.

Any way,what is so wrong and impure with a woman's body that Islam demeans it by insisting that it must be completely covered up or beaten at its master's will?

At last a bit of sanity is prevailing and the people have told the authorities they are not going to listen to their PC cowardly garbage and are going to do it their way!

Good luck to them and continue your defiance against Islam and the ridiculous authorities.

French resorts defiant as top court suspends burkini ban

Hasn't anyone figured out yet that the French are a bunch of snobs who feel no compunction in making outsiders "the other" feel like garbage beneath their shoes? The French have no more right to treat others that way than anyone else. This is part of what allowed the Paris attacks to happen; they refused to allow the Muslims living in their country to assimilate. Stick your nose in the air long enough and you're bound to stumble over a bump in the road at some point.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Cracks me up, like the woman in Florida who sued to where her burqa in her DL picture. I'm thinking "doesn't your religion tell you that you can't drive?"

Dont tell me let me guess, the state told her to get fucked and she had to obey the well established state religion which is to show her face?.

I think you're on to something. That could very be her dilemma. She might have got herself into some trouble with the cops earlier and they told her "If you ever show your face around here again, You're gonna' be in REAL trouble!"

Sure and if your religion requires that you do not aid and abett other peoples religion that is the antithesis of your own and you refuse to bake a cake to edify their actions dont worry the gvmnt will over rule your religion with their established religion and force you to bake a cake or run you out of town if you dont.

your religion had better conform to the state religion or else pay the price! Just ask the kliens

 

[Dogmaphobe]

[
Hasn't anyone figured out yet that the French are a bunch of snobs who feel no compunction in making outsiders "the other" feel like garbage beneath their shoes? The French have no more right to treat others that way than anyone else. This is part of what allowed the Paris attacks to happen; they refused to allow the Muslims living in their country to assimilate. Stick your nose in the air long enough and you're bound to stumble over a bump in the road at some point.

By the same rules of engagement applied so routinely by the illiberal leftists here towards anybody who objects to knuckle-dragging Islamic ways, does this mean you are a Francophobe?

As far as snobbery is concerned, I think the question shouldn't be why the French are snobs for rejecting primitive misogynistic attitudes arising from those who have no interested in adopting modern ways, but why you aren't.

Trying to justify mass murder based upon your imaginary sense that the French are snobs (like we haven't heard THAT one before) is beyond the pale. The attacks occurred because of the doctrine followed by the attackers.

The French are Snobs, the Germans are uptight, the Italians are lazy, the Poles are slobs and the Russians are drunks. Muslims, however, are beyond reproach!

 

[Tilly]

As we know by now, the government and administration is completely out of touch with public feeling about Islam and hasn't got a clue how to control it either!

The popular move to ban burkinis was because quite rightly it reminded everybody of its link to fundamental Islam and all its problems and terrorism, including the latest atrocities in Nice.

French people go to the beach to relax and suddenly they see these alien apparitions lying next to them, which makes them feel very uncomfortable.

Also they wonder whether these people are intentionally making a religious statement or just couldn't care less.

Either way the French have the right to insist on their culture not being swamped by the barbaric culture of the 7th century.

Any way,what is so wrong and impure with a woman's body that Islam demeans it by insisting that it must be completely covered up or beaten at its master's will?

At last a bit of sanity is prevailing and the people have told the authorities they are not going to listen to their PC cowardly garbage and are going to do it their way!

Good luck to them and continue your defiance against Islam and the ridiculous authorities.

French resorts defiant as top court suspends burkini ban

Hasn't anyone figured out yet that the French are a bunch of snobs who feel no compunction in making outsiders "the other" feel like garbage beneath their shoes? The French have no more right to treat others that way than anyone else. This is part of what allowed the Paris attacks to happen; they refused to allow the Muslims living in their country to assimilate. Stick your nose in the air long enough and you're bound to stumble over a bump in the road at some point.

Wow. How very bigoted.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Wow. How very bigoted.

Behind it lies the assumption that people have no right to self determination in the very countries in which they can trace their ancestry for generations, and that recent arrivals have every right to undermine the culture that has developed over centuries.

This is multiculturalism in a nut shell -- an irrational political orthodoxy that is anti-diversity (the diversity of the cultures of the West, any way), anti-liberal (in the way it seeks to preserve primitive social norms) and ultimately destructive in its desire to balkanize western civilization so thoroughly that there can be no possible cultural adhesion that acts to prevent bloodshed.

 

[KokomoJojo]

As we know by now, the government and administration is completely out of touch with public feeling about Islam and hasn't got a clue how to control it either!

The popular move to ban burkinis was because quite rightly it reminded everybody of its link to fundamental Islam and all its problems and terrorism, including the latest atrocities in Nice.

French people go to the beach to relax and suddenly they see these alien apparitions lying next to them, which makes them feel very uncomfortable.

Also they wonder whether these people are intentionally making a religious statement or just couldn't care less.

Either way the French have the right to insist on their culture not being swamped by the barbaric culture of the 7th century.

Any way,what is so wrong and impure with a woman's body that Islam demeans it by insisting that it must be completely covered up or beaten at its master's will?

At last a bit of sanity is prevailing and the people have told the authorities they are not going to listen to their PC cowardly garbage and are going to do it their way!

Good luck to them and continue your defiance against Islam and the ridiculous authorities.

French resorts defiant as top court suspends burkini ban

Hasn't anyone figured out yet that the French are a bunch of snobs who feel no compunction in making outsiders "the other" feel like garbage beneath their shoes? The French have no more right to treat others that way than anyone else. This is part of what allowed the Paris attacks to happen; they refused to allow the Muslims living in their country to assimilate. Stick your nose in the air long enough and you're bound to stumble over a bump in the road at some point.

Wow. How very bigoted.

govmnts always resort to religious profiling and overlay their religion in the name of secular and neutral.

 

[GLASNOST]

....... if your religion requires that you do not aid and abett other peoples religion that is the antithesis of your own by baking the cake dont worry the gvmnt will over rule your religion with their religion and force you to bake a cake or run you out of town if you dont. ..... your religion had better conform to the state religion or else pay the price!

That's a complicated subject. Most countries (dare I say all of them?) are initially governed by some kind of celestial hocus-pocus, what I think is often referred to as morals. I assume that you are American? If you look just beneath the surface you will find a Christian foundation. The beliefs of the American Indians weren't taken into consideration. Now of course, Judaism is deeply entrenched into American culture too. Islam had a period of attention but it was regarded as 'one of those black power diversions', not to be taken seriously AS A RELIGION. But maybe Islam will begin to find its' way into the American cultural fabric too. Who knows? Then you'll have to quit gawking at the burka just as you no longer stare at the kippah and payot.

 

[OldLady]

[
Hasn't anyone figured out yet that the French are a bunch of snobs who feel no compunction in making outsiders "the other" feel like garbage beneath their shoes? The French have no more right to treat others that way than anyone else. This is part of what allowed the Paris attacks to happen; they refused to allow the Muslims living in their country to assimilate. Stick your nose in the air long enough and you're bound to stumble over a bump in the road at some point.

By the same rules of engagement applied so routinely by the illiberal leftists here towards anybody who objects to knuckle-dragging Islamic ways, does this mean you are a Francophobe?

As far as snobbery is concerned, I think the question shouldn't be why the French are snobs for rejecting primitive misogynistic attitudes arising from those who have no interested in adopting modern ways, but why you aren't.

Trying to justify mass murder based upon your imaginary sense that the French are snobs (like we haven't heard THAT one before) is beyond the pale. The attacks occurred because of the doctrine followed by the attackers.

The French are Snobs, the Germans are uptight, the Italians are lazy, the Poles are slobs and the Russians are drunks. Muslims, however, are beyond reproach!

Dogmaphobe, I'm basing my observations on the French being snobbish to foreigners on many folks who have traveled to France and experienced that.
Reminding everyone that the lack of assimiliation in France and Belgium over decades has led to terrorism flourishing in their ghettos is well known and reported by people who have no love of terrorism.
Taking my comments to mean that I support mass murder is a vast leap when I believed we were discussing bathing suits.

 

[KokomoJojo]

....... if your religion requires that you do not aid and abett other peoples religion that is the antithesis of your own by baking the cake dont worry the gvmnt will over rule your religion with their religion and force you to bake a cake or run you out of town if you dont. ..... your religion had better conform to the state religion or else pay the price!

That's a complicated subject. Most countries (dare I say all of them?) are initially governed by some kind of celestial hocus-pocus, what I think is often referred to as morals. I assume that you are American? If you look just beneath the surface you will find a Christian foundation. The beliefs of the American Indians weren't taken into consideration. Now of course, Judaism is deeply entrenched into American culture too. Islam had a period of attention but it was regarded as 'one of those black power diversions', not to be taken seriously AS A RELIGION. But maybe Islam will begin to find its' way into the American cultural fabric too. Who knows? Then you'll have to quit gawking at the burka just as you no longer stare at the kippah and payot.

the states its all about the bait and switch operation.

promises you the freedom to practice (exercise) your religion then when you do and do not bake a cake or marry into polyamory (more than one wife) they over lay their religion and force you to their worship the state god, in their church of commerce.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Reminding everyone that the lack of assimiliation in France and Belgium over decades has led to terrorism flourishing in their ghettos is well known and reported by people who have no love of terrorism.
Taking my comments to mean that I support mass murder is a vast leap when I believed we were discussing bathing suits.

thats what states do, cause more trouble than they solve.

 

[Tilly]

I'm basing my observations on the French being snobbish to foreigners on many folks who have traveled to France and experienced that.

Lol and wow. And 'the Amercans' are ignorant obese loudmouths - because lots of people say so.

 

[GLASNOST]

the states its all about the bait and switch operation.

promises you the freedom to practice (exercise) your religion then when you do and do not bake a cake or marry into polyamory (more than one wife) they over lay their religion and force you to their worship the state god, in their church of commerce.

You don't mince your words.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

[
Hasn't anyone figured out yet that the French are a bunch of snobs who feel no compunction in making outsiders "the other" feel like garbage beneath their shoes? The French have no more right to treat others that way than anyone else. This is part of what allowed the Paris attacks to happen; they refused to allow the Muslims living in their country to assimilate. Stick your nose in the air long enough and you're bound to stumble over a bump in the road at some point.

By the same rules of engagement applied so routinely by the illiberal leftists here towards anybody who objects to knuckle-dragging Islamic ways, does this mean you are a Francophobe?

As far as snobbery is concerned, I think the question shouldn't be why the French are snobs for rejecting primitive misogynistic attitudes arising from those who have no interested in adopting modern ways, but why you aren't.

Trying to justify mass murder based upon your imaginary sense that the French are snobs (like we haven't heard THAT one before) is beyond the pale. The attacks occurred because of the doctrine followed by the attackers.

The French are Snobs, the Germans are uptight, the Italians are lazy, the Poles are slobs and the Russians are drunks. Muslims, however, are beyond reproach!

Dogmaphobe, I'm basing my observations on the French being snobbish to foreigners on many folks who have traveled to France and experienced that.
Reminding everyone that the lack of assimiliation in France and Belgium over decades has led to terrorism flourishing in their ghettos is well known and reported by people who have no love of terrorism.
Taking my comments to mean that I support mass murder is a vast leap when I believed we were discussing bathing suits.

You weren't discussing bathing suits, so whatever "vast leap" you imagine was yours. It was you who discussed terrorism as you blamed the French for the fact Islamists are engaging in it on their own soil.

This line of sophistry may be a popular platitude much repeated by leftists (the chickens coming home to roost meme) but is tantamount to blaming the victim of rape for the inability of the rapist to keep it in his pants.

You brought up terrorism. You blamed the victims of terrorism based upon an age-old canard that they are snobs. Since you cannot possibly blame the perps for the actions they unleash, you blame the victims. You also blame the lack of integration on the French even though throughout the world wherever Muslim populations increase within an area, there is no assimilation -- only the increasing demands to adhere to Islamic ways.

 

[Tilly]

[
Hasn't anyone figured out yet that the French are a bunch of snobs who feel no compunction in making outsiders "the other" feel like garbage beneath their shoes? The French have no more right to treat others that way than anyone else. This is part of what allowed the Paris attacks to happen; they refused to allow the Muslims living in their country to assimilate. Stick your nose in the air long enough and you're bound to stumble over a bump in the road at some point.

By the same rules of engagement applied so routinely by the illiberal leftists here towards anybody who objects to knuckle-dragging Islamic ways, does this mean you are a Francophobe?

As far as snobbery is concerned, I think the question shouldn't be why the French are snobs for rejecting primitive misogynistic attitudes arising from those who have no interested in adopting modern ways, but why you aren't.

Trying to justify mass murder based upon your imaginary sense that the French are snobs (like we haven't heard THAT one before) is beyond the pale. The attacks occurred because of the doctrine followed by the attackers.

The French are Snobs, the Germans are uptight, the Italians are lazy, the Poles are slobs and the Russians are drunks. Muslims, however, are beyond reproach!

Dogmaphobe, I'm basing my observations on the French being snobbish to foreigners on many folks who have traveled to France and experienced that.
Reminding everyone that the lack of assimiliation in France and Belgium over decades has led to terrorism flourishing in their ghettos is well known and reported by people who have no love of terrorism.
Taking my comments to mean that I support mass murder is a vast leap when I believed we were discussing bathing suits.

You weren't discussing bathing suits, so whatever "vast leap" you imagine was yours. It was you discussed terrorism as you blamed the French for the fact Islamists are engaging in it on their own soil.

This line of sophistry may be a popular platitude much repeated by leftists (the chickens coming home to roost meme) but is tantamount to blaming the victim of rape for the inability of the rapist to keep it in his pants.

You brought up terrorism. You blamed the victims of terrorism based upon an age-old canard that they are snobs. Since you cannot possibly blame the perps for the actions they unleash, you blame the victims. You also blame the lack of integration on the French even though throughout the world wherever Muslim populations increase within an area, there is no assimilation -- only the increasing demands to adhere to Islamic ways.

Of all the excuses I've heard for Islamic terrorism, snobbish natives takes the cake. Lol. The French are actually among the most welcoming and non-racist people in Europe, but they are tetchy if newcomers and visitors make no effort with the lingo, and they take their secularism very seriously indeed, and that partly manifests itself in them finding conspicuous displays of religious affiliation unpalatable. The fact is, immigrants in Europe in general have always tended to seek to live together, it's a natural desire when they share a language, a culture and then a religion on top of that. However, the policy of multiculturalism, pursued by gvmnts of both the Left and the Right, have positively hindered assimilation and integration, more so among many muslims communities throughout Europe, not just France, for whatever reason.