Breaking News - Israel launches ground offensive in Gaza

[Kondor3]

Right now in Israel's ground operation, Israel is shelling a hospital from a tank.

Mohammed Omer *@Mogaza

#Israel tankshell hit ICU at Aqsa hospital, 5 killed so far and 16 injured. hospital is under shelling now, central #Gaza

22 minutes ago

Gaza / Current.ly

Why did that Israeli tank fire at the hospital?

Was Hamas firing on IDF forces from within the hospital complex?

Does Hamas use the hospital or its basement-bunker for a command post?

When you emplace war-assets into such a building, it loses its immunity from hostile fire.

Rightfully so.

Hamas does that kind of shit all the time.

If Hamas WAS conducting operations from that locale...

Did the IDF tank crew run-up a decent score of dead Hamas scumbags?

Should we send the IDF tank crew some gift certificates for free steak dinners or something?

 

[ogibillm]

Right now in Israel's ground operation, Israel is shelling a hospital from a tank.

Mohammed Omer *@Mogaza

#Israel tankshell hit ICU at Aqsa hospital, 5 killed so far and 16 injured. hospital is under shelling now, central #Gaza

22 minutes ago

Gaza / Current.ly

Why did that Israeli tank fire at the hospital?

Was Hamas firing on IDF forces from within the hospital complex?

Does Hamas use the hospital or its basement-bunker for a command post?

When you emplace war-assets into such a building, it loses its immunity from hostile fire.

Rightfully so.

Hamas does that kind of shit all the time.

If Hamas WAS conducting operations from that locale...

Did the IDF tank crew run-up a decent score of dead Hamas scumbags?

Should we send the IDF tank crew some gift certificates for free steak dinners or something?

does it matter. it's a tank shooting a ******* hospital.

 

[Kondor3]

does it matter. it's a tank shooting a ******* hospital.

Yes. It matters a LOT, if troops are housed within, and especially if they are conducting operations from within, and most especially if they are actually firing from within.

========================================

From the website of the International Committee of the Red Cross...

Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Commentary - Art. 19. Part II : General protection of populations against certain consequences of war

[p.154] ARTICLE 19 [ Link ] . -- DISCONTINUANCE OF PROTECTION OF HOSPITALS


PARAGRAPH 1. -- CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH
PROTECTION IS DISCONTINUED

1. ' Basic condition -- Acts harmful to the enemy '

The immunity bestowed on civilian hospitals cannot be taken away unless they are used to commit acts harmful to the enemy. The wording adopted by the Diplomatic Conference was intended to draw attention to the exceptional character of the provision and to make it clear that protection could only be discontinued in this one case.

Despite the efforts of the 1949 Conference (1), it was not found possible to produce a more concrete definition of the notion "acts harmful to the enemy" (in the French version: actes nuisibles à l'ennemi), which had already been used in the 1929 version of the First Geneva Convention. The idea was made clearer, however, by the insertion of the phrase "outside their humanitarian duties".

Such harmful acts would, for example, include the use of a hospital as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition store, as a military observation post, or as a centre for liaison with fighting troops.

...

========================================

Under such circumstances, the hospital loses its immunity from attack.

We do not yet know (methinks) whether (a) the IDF actually fired at the hospital in question or (b) whether Hamas violated the Geneva Convention by staging operations, etc., from those premises, to throw away the shield of immunity.

But, given Hamas' frequent (and very well documented) history of doing just that, in connection with hospitals, schools, mosques, etc., it seems very likely that we will soon learn that Hamas had thrown away that shield of immunity by doing such things yet again.

Questions?

 

[ogibillm]

does it matter. it's a tank shooting a ******* hospital.

Yes. It matters a LOT, if troops are housed within, and especially if they are conducting operations from within, and most especially if they are actually firing from within.

========================================

From the website of the International Committee of the Red Cross...

Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.

Commentary - Art. 19. Part II : General protection of populations against certain consequences of war

[p.154] ARTICLE 19 [ Link ] . -- DISCONTINUANCE OF PROTECTION OF HOSPITALS


PARAGRAPH 1. -- CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH
PROTECTION IS DISCONTINUED

1. ' Basic condition -- Acts harmful to the enemy '

The immunity bestowed on civilian hospitals cannot be taken away unless they are used to commit acts harmful to the enemy. The wording adopted by the Diplomatic Conference was intended to draw attention to the exceptional character of the provision and to make it clear that protection could only be discontinued in this one case.

Despite the efforts of the 1949 Conference (1), it was not found possible to produce a more concrete definition of the notion "acts harmful to the enemy" (in the French version: actes nuisibles à l'ennemi), which had already been used in the 1929 version of the First Geneva Convention. The idea was made clearer, however, by the insertion of the phrase "outside their humanitarian duties".

Such harmful acts would, for example, include the use of a hospital as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition store, as a military observation post, or as a centre for liaison with fighting troops.

...

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========================================

Under such circumstances, the hospital loses its immunity from attack.

Questions?

oh, you thought i meant does it matter as in does it matter if israel has some sort of legal right to do it.

frankly, i don't care about that.

the optics of a tank shelling a hospital are what matters - and if there were soldiers or weapons inside why weren't troops sent in to collect them instead of shelling the whole damn building from a tank?

 

[Indeependent]

Sorry ogi,
Even most Hitler youth got over the propaganda once the war was over.

 

[ogibillm]

Sorry ogi,
Even most Hitler youth got over the propaganda once the war was over.

when the propaganda is that you try to avoid civilian casualties and then you have a tank shelling a hospital i think we can guess which propaganda can and will be dismissed.

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is the same argument, that the Arab Palestinian has been mustering for more than half a century. It is, as Ms Lamis Deek and our friend PF Tinmore, does Israel have the right to exist?

Both Ms Deek and PF Tinmore, claim that Israel "does not have" the “right to exist as a Jewish state." Well, in a sense, this is a larger question as to the criteria under which any nation has the right to exist.

Probably because it is true.

A state, or government if you will, has no rights. It is the people who have rights. A government constituted by the will of the people is merely an extension of the rights of the people.

Palestine is a nation of people inside a territory defined by international borders. Palestine is their country. As a nation of people inside a defined territory they have the right to:

Self determination without external interference.​

Independence and sovereignty.​

Territorial integrity.​

The Palestinians, and only the Palestinians, have the right to establish a government and declare a state inside their international borders without external interference.

Israel is an alien domination of Palestine. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich be the foreign World Zionist Organization. Its intended population was foreign settlers who were imported by the Zionists to populate the planned Jewish state.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. Israel was created with the virtual unanimous opposition of the native population and has never had the support of the majority of people.

Outside the UN during the statehood vote.

You gotta love Palestinian women.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2nWVM_Ehbo]Lamis Deek Incites Intifada at the Palestinian "statehood" Protest - YouTube[/ame]

Tinmore, I would be less confused if you would display a map of what you think Palestine and Israel looks like.

 

[Indeependent]

Sorry ogi,
Even most Hitler youth got over the propaganda once the war was over.

when the propaganda is that you try to avoid civilian casualties and then you have a tank shelling a hospital i think we can guess which propaganda can and will be dismissed.

How many militaries bomb a few thousand buildings and kill less than 300 people?
Don't avoid the question.

 

[Kondor3]

oh, you thought i meant does it matter as in does it matter if israel has some sort of legal right to do it. frankly, i don't care about that. the optics of a tank shelling a hospital are what matters - and if there were soldiers or weapons inside why weren't troops sent in to collect them instead of shelling the whole damn building from a tank?

Why risk your own people when a 120mm shell will do the trick? Eventually, these Hamas Neanderthals will get the message and stop doing it. Meanwhile, innocents pay for Hamas criminality and cowardice.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The right of self-determination belongs to "ALL People;" without regard to their point of origin. It is not a unique right to the Palestinians.

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is the same argument, that the Arab Palestinian has been mustering for more than half a century. It is, as Ms Lamis Deek and our friend PF Tinmore, does Israel have the right to exist?

Both Ms Deek and PF Tinmore, claim that Israel "does not have" the “right to exist as a Jewish state." Well, in a sense, this is a larger question as to the criteria under which any nation has the right to exist.

Probably because it is true.

A state, or government if you will, has no rights. It is the people who have rights. A government constituted by the will of the people is merely an extension of the rights of the people.

Palestine is a nation of people inside a territory defined by international borders. Palestine is their country. As a nation of people inside a defined territory they have the right to:

Self determination without external interference.​

Independence and sovereignty.​

Territorial integrity.​

The Palestinians, and only the Palestinians, have the right to establish a government and declare a state inside their international borders without external interference.

Israel is an alien domination of Palestine. Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich be the foreign World Zionist Organization. Its intended population was foreign settlers who were imported by the Zionists to populate the planned Jewish state.

Of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of immigrants. Israel was created with the virtual unanimous opposition of the native population and has never had the support of the majority of people.

Outside the UN during the statehood vote.

(OBSERVATION)

Relative to your insistent claim that the Arab Palestinians have some "international borders." I assume you are talking about the recognition by the UN of the "sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967" as stipulated in the UN Acknowledgement to the proclamation of the State of Palestine (A/RES/43/177 15 December 1988). That is the recognized borders of "Palestine" after 1988.

If you are referring to something different, I would like a little more of a reference so I may address it directly.

(COMMENT)

The Palestinians have exercised their "right of self-determination" twice. Once when they approved the annexation of the West Bank as part of Jordan (1950); which they later lost due to their violent nature and attempts to assassinate the King. And once in 1988 when they declared the State of Palestine; which been a failed state since that time.

BUT, the Palestinians do not have any unique right to the entire landscape of the territory formerly under Mandate. That is simply wrong. The Arab Palestinian had no sovereign control over the territory prior to the Ottoman Empire, during the Ottoman Empire, or after the Ottoman Empire. Nothing until 1988.

(SIDEBAR)

Related to your insert of the Youtube Video of "Lamis Deek Incites Intifada at the Palestinian "statehood" Protest," and comment that "You gotta love Palestinian women;" it should be remembered that:

Declares that acts, methods, and practices of terrorism are contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations and that knowingly financing, planning and inciting terrorist acts are also contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations;

SOURCE: S/RES/1373 (2001)

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[PoliticalChic]

Sorry ogi,
Even most Hitler youth got over the propaganda once the war was over.

when the propaganda is that you try to avoid civilian casualties and then you have a tank shelling a hospital i think we can guess which propaganda can and will be dismissed.

Did you mention propaganda?


"Ambulances are still stopped and searched at Israeli checkpoints because they have frequently been used as a means to transport terrorist bombs, and many of the murderers who have triggered suicide bombings in Israel gained access by driving or riding in Red Crescent ambulances. For example:

In October 2001, Nidal Nazal, a Hamas operative in Kalkilya, was arrested by the IDF. He was an ambulance driver for the Palestinian Red Crescent who served as a messenger between the Hamas headquarters in several West Bank towns. 53

In January 2002, Wafa Idris blew herself up on the crowded Jaffa Street in Jerusalem, becoming one of the first female suicide bombers. She was an ambulance driver for the Palestinian Red Crescent, as was Mohammed Hababa, the Tanzim operative who sent her on her mission. She left the West Bank by way of an ambulance. 54

On March 27, 2002, a Tanzim member who worked as a Red Crescent ambulance driver was captured with explosives in his ambulance. A child disguised as a patient was riding in the ambulance along with the child’s family. The explosives were found under the stretcher the “sick” child was laying on. 55

On May 17, 2002, an explosive belt was found in a Red Crescent ambulance at a checkpoint near Ramallah. The bomb, the same type generally use in suicide bombings, was hidden under a gurney on which a sick child was lying. The driver, Islam Jibril, was already wanted by the IDF, and admitted that this was not the first time that an ambulance had been used to transport explosives or terrorists. In a statement issued the same day, the International Committee of the Red Cross said that it “understands the security concerns of the Israeli authorities, and has always acknowledged their right to check ambulances, provided it does not unduly delay medical evacuations.” The sick passengers in the ambulance were escorted by soldiers to a nearby hospital. 56

On June 30, 2002, Israeli troops found 10 suspected Palestinian terrorists hiding in two ambulances in Ramallah. They were caught when soldiers stopped the vehicles for routine checks. 57

In December 2003, Rashed Tarek al-Nimr, who worked as a chemist in hospitals in Nablus and Bethlehem, supplied chemicals from the hospitals to Hamas for use in making bombs and admitted he used ambulances to transport the chemicals. He also said the Hamas commanders would hide in hospitals to avoid arrest. 58

In December 2004, a Hamas agent with forged documents claiming that he was a cancer patient in need of medical treatment from an Israeli hospital was arrested by security forces. Hamed A-Karim Hamed Abu Lihiya was to meet up with another terrorist, obtain weapons from allies inside Israel, and carry out an attack. That same month, a man recruited by the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade to plant a bomb on the railway tracks near Netanya tried to use false papers indicating he needed hospital treatment to enter Israel. Another Hamas terrorist planning a suicide bombing was arrested in March 2005 after pretending to be a kidney donor. 59"
Myths & Facts: Human Rights (Chapter 18) | Jewish Virtual Library




For purposes of clarity....are you pretending to be stupid, or actually so?

 

[Slyhunter]

Fire from civilian establishments makes them military targets.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Sorry ogi,
Even most Hitler youth got over the propaganda once the war was over.

when the propaganda is that you try to avoid civilian casualties and then you have a tank shelling a hospital i think we can guess which propaganda can and will be dismissed.

How many militaries bomb a few thousand buildings and kill less than 300 people?
Don't avoid the question.

Moreover, how many militaries use human shields? Why are people ignoring the utter barbarity being employed by Hamas? Oh, because Israel must be faulted in any and all instability in the region. Lose Lose situation if they act in defense of their country and citizens. There are people here in this thread too utterly stupid to see reality.

 

[Indeependent]

when the propaganda is that you try to avoid civilian casualties and then you have a tank shelling a hospital i think we can guess which propaganda can and will be dismissed.

How many militaries bomb a few thousand buildings and kill less than 300 people?
Don't avoid the question.

Moreover, how many militaries use human shields? Why are people ignoring the utter barbarity being employed by Hamas? Oh, because Israel must be faulted in any and all instability in the region. Lose Lose situation if they act in defense of their country and citizens. There are people here in this thread too utterly stupid to see reality.

More and more Israelis, both Jews and non-Jews are objecting to giving warnings; they want the animals exterminated.
The entire Muslim world is at war with itself and they try to distract from that by blaming the JOOS.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Oh, please. And the fact that 40% of the population is that young is supposed to be an excuse? Really?

Wow.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,


(SIDEBAR)

Related to your insert of the Youtube Video of "Lamis Deek Incites Intifada at the Palestinian "statehood" Protest," and comment that "You gotta love Palestinian women;" it should be remembered that:

Declares that acts, methods, and practices of terrorism are contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations and that knowingly financing, planning and inciting terrorist acts are also contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations;

SOURCE: S/RES/1373 (2001)

Most Respectfully,
R

It is illegal to "incite" liberation?

Where does it say that?

 

[Statistikhengst]

Oh, you want to liberate the palis from Hamas???

Good man, good man.

All we need to do is to KILL all of Hamas!

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The right of self-determination belongs to "ALL People;" without regard to their point of origin. It is not a unique right to the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

That is true. All people have the right to self determination inside their own territorial borders.

 

[irosie91]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The right of self-determination belongs to "ALL People;" without regard to their point of origin. It is not a unique right to the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

That is true. All people have the right to self determination inside their own territorial borders.

THRUOUT history----conflict between people AND THEIR respective rights has led to border shifts---
in fact INCESSANTLY and EXTENSIVELY. Based on the present (and past) genocide of
some Christian populations in Africa and Asia-----I would advocate border shifts and redefinitions
to save those populations and render justice and RIGHTS for all people thru the creation of
Christian majority countries for them See??? easy.
Pakistan was CREATED DE NOVO from HINDU INDIAN LAND because some muslims ---found
their rights under threat in the face of HINDU MAJORITY ----in 1948

I have no idea in what country my great grandparents were born-------it was some very large area of
land called the AUSTRIAN HAPSBURG EMPIRE---------do you know the borders of that country?
Would I be entitled to citizenship therein? I always wanted to be a HAPBURGIAN-----I think
wolfberg Amadeus motzart-----might have been a HAPBURGIAN----or maybe he was german???

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The right of self-determination belongs to "ALL People;" without regard to their point of origin. It is not a unique right to the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

That is true. All people have the right to self determination inside their own territorial borders.

Just like Israel's internationally recognized borders. Something Palestine does not have.