And the Ruling Is.....

[TemplarKormac]

Welcome to Corporate Sharia Law® of Saudi America.

Brought to youby SCOTUS.

Channeling your inner Hillary aren't we? Comparing us to the Middle East? You have no clue, do you? This comparison is completely and utterly flawed.

“It is a disturbing trend that you see in a lot of societies that are unstable, anti-democratic, and prone to extremism. Women’s bodies are used as the defining and unifying issue to bring together people—men—to get them to behave in ways that are disadvantageous to women but prop up rulers.”

-Hillary Clinton on the Hobby Lobby Supreme Court ruling

 

[Bush92]

After the heat Roberts took over Obamacare ruling he will step it back with tossing in for a 5-4 in both cases against the administration and against SEIU.

Called it.

 

[LoneLaugher]

The Hobby Lobby case does not concern abortions. Why are all of you nutters discussing abortions? Is it a disease?

Hey, you guys started it. Contraception and abortion go hand in hand. They end life.

So why do you think you can dictate the discourse in my threads, LL?

Your previous post here was retarded. You think making contraception and abortion accessible to women is a means of controlling them and limiting their choices? It isn't possible to post with less logic.

The question you ask here is retarded. This isn't your thread. You began it. You don't own it. And...I'm not dictating anything. I'm pointing out that you are being dishonest with the way that you are framing the question.

 

[Mac1958]

I agree. Well, I'd prefer a Medicare/Medicare Supplement-based system for all, a plan that would end our ridiculous, disjointed 5-payer (VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Group/Individual, indigent) joke of a system. You bet. I could provide a long, long list of the benefits of such a system.

Some "wingnut", huh? And by the way, do mean left wingnut or right wingnut?

I just can't get you folks to be honest about pretty much anything. And here, I finally narrow down the discussion to the heart of the matter, and you have to launch into name calling.

But I'm used to it!

.

Whatever guy.

HEre's the ONLY divide I see in the world

Rich People.

___________________________

Working folks trying to get by.


Only divide I see, and how I see the entire world.

And in that divide, you take the side of Rich People (Hobby Lobby) over the poor girl working for minimum wage selling folks cheap made Chinese Shit.

I don't give a flying **** if you are for otherwise sensible reforms, the fact is ON THIS ISSUE, you've taken THEIR side.

I realize that's how you see the entire world, and while it's sad, there' nothing I can do about it. Looking for a silver lining, I guess it's good that you admit it.

And frankly, this ruling smells bad to me. The Supes carving out adherence to a law because of faith in a religion? I don't see it. It's not difficult to make a list of potential significant problems with that.

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get an honest conversation out of partisan ideologues. And it's annoying to see the lefties portray this as something it is not, as our conversation has shown.

Nothing of substance is accomplished or fixed when the conversation is full of bullshit.

.

 

[JoeB131]

So, how'd that work our for you, Iosef?

I guess I was expecting too much out of Justice Kennedy.

But not to worry. 5 Old Men just decided that a woman's employer can tell her what to do with her Vagina.

Not quite "Gift From God Rape", but it'll do the trick.

Despite the SCOTUS ruling and your Chicken Little whining, women are still free to do what they will with their vaginas. Should pregnancy occur while doing what they will, they can have the baby or abort. They can keep or give up the child. They can sue the father for support or ask him to help pay for any other decision she may make. She just can't require the rest of us - those of us who have nothing to do with her decisions or her vagina - to pay for it.

But the idea is to avoid the pregnancy, correct? I mean, you wingnuts are all against abortion and stuff, and here are some treatments that prevent pregnancies and the need for abortion. (Incidentally, abortion is STILL considered an elective and not covered under most plans.)

This topic is NOT a winner for the GOP. Just ask Murdoch and Akin.

 

[JoeB131]

"Hey I'd be all for government giving free abortions" Joe says.

Well then, aren't they then not letting women make their own choices? So why? You obviously think it does, but your argument is a giant conundrum. You want the woman to have a choice, but her reliance on the government in reality constitutes a forfeiture of that choice. She would be essentially saying "the government knows more about my vagina than I do." How utterly preposterous.

This is a paradox of your own making.

No, not really.

Not giving the woman a choice would be doing what China does. If you've already had your one allotted child, you get an abortion or you pay a $20,000 fine. (Which is more than even China's new affluent middle class can afford.) Ironically, as horrible as this is, Hobby Lobby just can't wait to buy cheap shit from China.

Giving the woman a choice means-

We pay for your contraception if you don't want to get pregnant.

We pay for your abortion if you get pregnant and didn't mean to.

We pay for your pre-natal care if you want to keep the child, whether it was intended or not.

Incidentally, this is EXACTLY what the Europeans do, it is what the Japanese do. And they have lower abortion rates than we do.

So, women have a choice...but taxpayers don't. Your idea of "choice" is pretty fucked up.

You're awfully generous with other people's money. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, don't it?

Dumbass, we spend more per capita than any country in the world on Health Care, most because of dumbasses like you talking about "Freedom".

While we pay 17% of our GDP on health care, the Japanese pay close to 8%. And they live longer, have a lower infant mortality rate, and a lower abortion rate.

Here's the thing. We'd save money if we had universal health care, because you'd have less unplanned pregnancies.

but instead, what you have is a system of not giving the poor health care, they show up at emergency rooms for their problems, and the cost of taking care of them is spread out amongst everyone else through taxes, higher insurance premiums for those who can pay, etc.

It's like you have to make an effort to be this stupid.

 

[JoeB131]

I've still got the same doctors I had before ObamaCare, dude. so do most people.

I know when you sit on Granny's couch not having a useful job, you listen to Hate Radio and they tell you this shit, but the fact is, most people are still going to the same doctors they always have.

If you like your doctor, you're fucked.

You'd have some credibility if you didn't use Wingnut News Sources.

 

[JoeB131]

Whatever guy.

HEre's the ONLY divide I see in the world

Rich People.
___________________________

Working folks trying to get by.

Only divide I see, and how I see the entire world.

And in that divide, you take the side of Rich People (Hobby Lobby) over the poor girl working for minimum wage selling folks cheap made Chinese Shit.

I don't give a flying **** if you are for otherwise sensible reforms, the fact is ON THIS ISSUE, you've taken THEIR side.

I realize that's how you see the entire world, and while it's sad, there' nothing I can do about it. Looking for a silver lining, I guess it's good that you admit it.

And frankly, this ruling smells bad to me. The Supes carving out adherence to a law because of faith in a religion? I don't see it. It's not difficult to make a list of potential significant problems with that.

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get an honest conversation out of partisan ideologues. And it's annoying to see the lefties portray this as something it is not, as our conversation has shown.

Nothing of substance is accomplished or fixed when the conversation is full of bullshit.

.

It's not bullshit at all, guy. This is what happens when you have a plutocracy. Any shit in the world can be peddled as law if the Rich want it that way.

This is a very rich family that got very rich buying 93% of their product from China, which for those playing along at home, has an oppressive policy of FORCING women to have abortions if they have exceeded their government mandated quota of one child. These folks have also gotten very rich by underpaying the clerks who work in their stores. (A cashier at Hobby Lobby makes about $9.00 an hour.)

they did, however find the money to go to SCOTUS so that they wouldn't have to follow a new law that said they had to provide certain kinds of birth control.

ANd a bunch of the slack jawed folks working for $9.00 an hour were all for it because, hey, they think abortion makes Baby Jesus cry. It's how the Rich get the stupid to vote against their own economic interests.

'Yup, I'm working for $9.00 an hour with inadequate health insurance, and I can't get a good manufacturing job because they all went to China!"

And you wonder why I see the world this way?

 

[SAYIT]

I guess I was expecting too much out of Justice Kennedy.

But not to worry. 5 Old Men just decided that a woman's employer can tell her what to do with her Vagina.

Not quite "Gift From God Rape", but it'll do the trick.

Despite the SCOTUS ruling and your Chicken Little whining, women are still free to do what they will with their vaginas. Should pregnancy occur while doing what they will, they can have the baby or abort. They can keep or give up the child. They can sue the father for support or ask him to help pay for any other decision she may make. She just can't require the rest of us - those of us who have nothing to do with her decisions or her vagina - to pay for it.

But the idea is to avoid the pregnancy, correct? I mean, you wingnuts are all against abortion and stuff, and here are some treatments that prevent pregnancies and the need for abortion. (Incidentally, abortion is STILL considered an elective and not covered under most plans.)

This topic is NOT a winner for the GOP. Just ask Murdoch and Akin.

I don't care how the topic ranks for the GOP and I don't know if avoidance is the goal. The decisions are not mine to make, the vagina is not mine to enjoy, and the pregnancies are not mine to bear. As such, the financial responsibilities should be borne by those who are enjoying it (both parties) and yes, Virginia, I am all for peeps taking care of each other ... after they take care of their own biz.

 

[SAYIT]

Whatever guy.

HEre's the ONLY divide I see in the world

Rich People.
___________________________

Working folks trying to get by.

Only divide I see, and how I see the entire world.

And in that divide, you take the side of Rich People (Hobby Lobby) over the poor girl working for minimum wage selling folks cheap made Chinese Shit.

I don't give a flying **** if you are for otherwise sensible reforms, the fact is ON THIS ISSUE, you've taken THEIR side.

I realize that's how you see the entire world, and while it's sad, there' nothing I can do about it. Looking for a silver lining, I guess it's good that you admit it.

And frankly, this ruling smells bad to me. The Supes carving out adherence to a law because of faith in a religion? I don't see it. It's not difficult to make a list of potential significant problems with that.

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get an honest conversation out of partisan ideologues. And it's annoying to see the lefties portray this as something it is not, as our conversation has shown.

Nothing of substance is accomplished or fixed when the conversation is full of bullshit.

.

It's not bullshit at all, guy. This is what happens when you have a plutocracy. Any shit in the world can be peddled as law if the Rich want it that way.

This is a very rich family that got very rich buying 93% of their product from China, which for those playing along at home, has an oppressive policy of FORCING women to have abortions if they have exceeded their government mandated quota of one child. These folks have also gotten very rich by underpaying the clerks who work in their stores. (A cashier at Hobby Lobby makes about $9.00 an hour.)

they did, however find the money to go to SCOTUS so that they wouldn't have to follow a new law that said they had to provide certain kinds of birth control.

ANd a bunch of the slack jawed folks working for $9.00 an hour were all for it because, hey, they think abortion makes Baby Jesus cry. It's how the Rich get the stupid to vote against their own economic interests.

'Yup, I'm working for $9.00 an hour with inadequate health insurance, and I can't get a good manufacturing job because they all went to China!"

And you wonder why I see the world this way?

Generally speaking, no one forced anyone to work at Hobby, buy from Hobby, or have sex. Those decisions were rightfully made by individuals who rightfully are responsible for their consequences. It is not the purpose of America's gov't to play "nanny state." Instead it is the responsibility of individuals to grow the **** up.
BTW, America decided decades ago to squeeze out smokestack industries because of the environmental impact (see: Pollution in China). The loss of those manufacturing jobs was a predictable result.

 

[Seawytch]

Shit, man, an employer could declare himself a Christian Scientist and deny all health coverage.

You know what? I say, fine, do it. It's time to end the practice of employers paying for health care, period. Put the Public Option on the Health Care Exchanges, make everyone purchase individual care and be done with it.

And what are you suggesting? That Government take over? Are you crazy? Or are you simply ignorant of what the Public Option and the Employer Mandate do?

Even Obamacare forces employers to provide 'adequate' coverage for their employees.

[MENTION=43268]TemplarKormac[/MENTION]

Do you even know what the Public Option is? From your post, I'd say not.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Generally speaking, no one forced anyone to work at Hobby, buy from Hobby, or have sex. Those decisions were rightfully made by individuals who rightfully are responsible for their consequences.

I entirely agree. But once you've worked for Hobby Lobby, your health insurance is YOURS, not theirs.

[
It is not the purpose of America's gov't to play "nanny state." Instead it is the responsibility of individuals to grow the **** up.

It's not an issue of playing "nanny state", guy. It's an issue of how we want the collectivization of health care to be managed. Because regardless of whether you get it through an employer or the government, it is socialism we are all paying into.

Now, Hobby Lobby wants to have it both ways. We'll let you have the Pill but not an IUD. Not for any valid reason, just that in their tiny bible thumping minds, a Zygote is the same as a baby. That's not science and its' not really logical.

[
BTW, America decided decades ago to squeeze out smokestack industries because of the environmental impact (see: Pollution in China). The loss of those manufacturing jobs was a predictable result.

No, it really wasn't. Smokestacks aren't necessary. China isn't polluted because of smoke stacks. China is polluted because people burn everything for heat, including garbage, and don't have any emissions requirements for their vehicles. It's what happens when you go from an Agricultural to an Urban society in a few decades without planning for the infrastructure.

China is going to pay a very heavy price for their lack of vision.

 

[DiamondDave]

[

Generally speaking, no one forced anyone to work at Hobby, buy from Hobby, or have sex. Those decisions were rightfully made by individuals who rightfully are responsible for their consequences.

I entirely agree. But once you've worked for Hobby Lobby, your health insurance is YOURS, not theirs.

[
It is not the purpose of America's gov't to play "nanny state." Instead it is the responsibility of individuals to grow the **** up.

It's not an issue of playing "nanny state", guy. It's an issue of how we want the collectivization of health care to be managed. Because regardless of whether you get it through an employer or the government, it is socialism we are all paying into.

Now, Hobby Lobby wants to have it both ways. We'll let you have the Pill but not an IUD. Not for any valid reason, just that in their tiny bible thumping minds, a Zygote is the same as a baby. That's not science and its' not really logical.

[
BTW, America decided decades ago to squeeze out smokestack industries because of the environmental impact (see: Pollution in China). The loss of those manufacturing jobs was a predictable result.

No, it really wasn't. Smokestacks aren't necessary. China isn't polluted because of smoke stacks. China is polluted because people burn everything for heat, including garbage, and don't have any emissions requirements for their vehicles. It's what happens when you go from an Agricultural to an Urban society in a few decades without planning for the infrastructure.

China is going to pay a very heavy price for their lack of vision.

No.. it is not 'YOURS' it is a benefit they generously provide of their own choice to you as you EARN it... like a discount at their store, or money toward something else they wish to provide it toward for your benefit.. you don't get to FORCE them to give you something they do not wish to provide.. and if you don't like their benefits that they wish to provide, you also have the freedom (like their freedom to choose what they pay for as a benefit) to ******* go work somewhere else...

You do not get to infringe on their freedom to benefit yours... you and the women and anyone else has the freedom to go buy contraception, all on your own.. nobody is restricting that

 

[JoeB131]

[

No.. it is not 'YOURS' it is a benefit they generously provide of their own choice to you as you EARN it... like a discount at their store, or money toward something else they wish to provide it toward for your benefit.. you don't get to FORCE them to give you something they do not wish to provide.. and if you don't like their benefits that they wish to provide, you also have the freedom (like their freedom to choose what they pay for as a benefit) to ******* go work somewhere else...

You do not get to infringe on their freedom to benefit yours... you and the women and anyone else has the freedom to go buy contraception, all on your own.. nobody is restricting that

Uh, no, guy.

The thing is, companies do not provide health insurance out of generosity. Health insurance initially evolved because government capped salaries to avoid employers poaching employees during WWII, and they needed something to attract workers.

Health insurance is something the employee earns by producing value to the company. Therefore, he should have as much say as to what it covers as the employer does, if not more. He certainly shouldn't have his access to health care limited because his employer believes in imaginary sky fairies who have sexual hangups.

Of course, I have a great idea for getting a religious exemption to the law. You report to our office at the top of the Sears Tower with a dogmatic explanation as to why your Sky Fairy doesn't like a certain brand of contraception. It will involve filling out a 1000 question form.

Then we throw you out the window of the 100th Floor. If your Sky Fairy catches you on the way down, you totally get to exclude any treatments he doesn't want.

 

[DiamondDave]

[

No.. it is not 'YOURS' it is a benefit they generously provide of their own choice to you as you EARN it... like a discount at their store, or money toward something else they wish to provide it toward for your benefit.. you don't get to FORCE them to give you something they do not wish to provide.. and if you don't like their benefits that they wish to provide, you also have the freedom (like their freedom to choose what they pay for as a benefit) to ******* go work somewhere else...

You do not get to infringe on their freedom to benefit yours... you and the women and anyone else has the freedom to go buy contraception, all on your own.. nobody is restricting that

Uh, no, guy.

The thing is, companies do not provide health insurance out of generosity. Health insurance initially evolved because government capped salaries to avoid employers poaching employees during WWII, and they needed something to attract workers.

Health insurance is something the employee earns by producing value to the company. Therefore, he should have as much say as to what it covers as the employer does, if not more. He certainly shouldn't have his access to health care limited because his employer believes in imaginary sky fairies who have sexual hangups.

Of course, I have a great idea for getting a religious exemption to the law. You report to our office at the top of the Sears Tower with a dogmatic explanation as to why your Sky Fairy doesn't like a certain brand of contraception. It will involve filling out a 1000 question form.

Then we throw you out the window of the 100th Floor. If your Sky Fairy catches you on the way down, you totally get to exclude any treatments he doesn't want.

It is out of generosity.. period.. it is a benefit ABOVE normal compensation.. technically, they only need to pay you minimum wage for ANY job...

And if I, as an employer, wishes to give you a discount on People Magazine and not on US magazine, it is MY choice.. not yours.. it is not YOUR earned magazine... you can still freely BUY it on your own, but you do not get to force me to give it to you at my cost or my subsidization because you ******* want it

 

[JoeB131]

It is out of generosity.. period.. it is a benefit ABOVE normal compensation.. technically, they only need to pay you minimum wage for ANY job...

And if I, as an employer, wishes to give you a discount on People Magazine and not on US magazine, it is MY choice.. not yours.. it is not YOUR earned magazine... you can still freely BUY it on your own, but you do not get to force me to give it to you at my cost or my subsidization because you ******* want it

Guy, we aren't talking about a subcription. We are talking about people's health and well-being.

I walk with a limp because I spent a year fighting with my last job about a knee surgery they considered "elective". I don't want to hear this SHIT that this is like a ******* magazine subscription.

 

[daveman]

Dumbass, we spend more per capita than any country in the world on Health Care, most because of dumbasses like you talking about "Freedom".

While we pay 17% of our GDP on health care, the Japanese pay close to 8%. And they live longer, have a lower infant mortality rate, and a lower abortion rate.

Here's the thing. We'd save money if we had universal health care, because you'd have less unplanned pregnancies.

but instead, what you have is a system of not giving the poor health care, they show up at emergency rooms for their problems, and the cost of taking care of them is spread out amongst everyone else through taxes, higher insurance premiums for those who can pay, etc.

It's like you have to make an effort to be this stupid.

If America sucks so bad...and according to you, it does...leave.

Get the hell out.

Take your pathetic need for the Nanny State to make all your decisions for you and go find a country that will treat you like the helpless sissy bedwetter you are.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Hobby lobby went up for their morals and they won

It's the law of the land.

It's that simple

 

[daveman]

I've still got the same doctors I had before ObamaCare, dude. so do most people.

I know when you sit on Granny's couch not having a useful job, you listen to Hate Radio and they tell you this shit, but the fact is, most people are still going to the same doctors they always have.

If you like your doctor, you're fucked.

You'd have some credibility if you didn't use Wingnut News Sources.

Oh, yeah, like the Obama Ass-Suck Media are going to tell you the truth about the failures of Obamacare.

Are you claiming Obama told the truth when he said you could keep your doctor?

Because, dood -- he lied. Period. End of discussion.

 

[daveman]

Generally speaking, no one forced anyone to work at Hobby, buy from Hobby, or have sex. Those decisions were rightfully made by individuals who rightfully are responsible for their consequences. It is not the purpose of America's gov't to play "nanny state." Instead it is the responsibility of individuals to grow the **** up.
BTW, America decided decades ago to squeeze out smokestack industries because of the environmental impact (see: Pollution in China). The loss of those manufacturing jobs was a predictable result.

Indeed. Another failure of liberalism: Turning America into a service economy.