America Founded as a Christian Nation

[NotfooledbyW]

I don't respond to multi quotes nor to hypocrites insinuating I lied about anything. You and I are done.

then don’t misrepresent what I write in my posts.

i did not insinuate. I posted exactly in detail what you misrepresented.

that you can’t admit or deny it, just run. I get it.

I will continue to try and figure out what you are trying to say and want Americans to do.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23911942 reply January 22 2020

You do realize that the establishment clause as ratified restricted the federal government from establishing a national religion and did not restrict the states from establishing state religions, right? Of which half the states had at the time of ratification.


Thomas Jefferson even wrote a letter that explicitly stated that establishing a state religion is up to the states.

Do you recall writing this:

23910475

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians.

And I told you that your statement is not true?

You used the word “nation” two times that America was founded as a Christian “NATION” and America was a “NATION” founded by Christians.

I don’t have much of a problem had you written Virginia was founded as a Christian State. Etc for the states that may have been. I won’t bother going through the history of each state and whether Christianity would be a legitimate founding principle of each state when most were originally established as a colony under the authority of the King if England.

But now you come around to a truthful statement that the establishment clause restricted the federal government from establishing a NATIONAL religion.

In other words our national system of government is NOT and all the original states when referred to as the United States of America were NOT founded as a Christian nation.

That I am correct is even further verified by your confirmation that half the states did not choose to establish or continue a state religion.

Thank You.

What a moronic and dishonest statement! Only an idiot would be trying to claim a theocracy argument was postulated on this thread.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I don't respond to multi quotes nor to hypocrites insinuating I lied about anything. You and I are done.

then don’t misrepresent what I write in my posts.

i did not insinuate. I posted exactly in detail what you misrepresented.

that you can’t admit or deny it, just run. I get it.

I will continue to try and figure out what you are trying to say and want Americans to do.

You are screwed up in your mind. You have done nothing but misrepresent this thread and now you make such a baseless claim??? You're nuts.

 

[ding]

23911942 reply January 22 2020

You do realize that the establishment clause as ratified restricted the federal government from establishing a national religion and did not restrict the states from establishing state religions, right? Of which half the states had at the time of ratification.


Thomas Jefferson even wrote a letter that explicitly stated that establishing a state religion is up to the states.

Do you recall writing this:

23910475

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians.

And I told you that your statement is not true?

You used the word “nation” two times that America was founded as a Christian “NATION” and America was a “NATION” founded by Christians.

I don’t have much of a problem had you written Virginia was founded as a Christian State. Etc for the states that may have been. I won’t bother going through the history of each state and whether Christianity would be a legitimate founding principle of each state when most were originally established as a colony under the authority of the King if England.

But now you come around to a truthful statement that the establishment clause restricted the federal government from establishing a NATIONAL religion.

In other words our national system of government is NOT and all the original states when referred to as the United States of America were NOT founded as a Christian nation.

That I am correct is even further verified by your confirmation that half the states did not choose to establish or continue a state religion.

Thank You.

That statement was absolutely true and supported by everything else I wrote.

I think your problem is that you are reading too much into founded as a Christian nation.

Half the states had established religions and that religion was Christianity. There were no other religions other than Christianity that was a state established religion. That ought to tell you something.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Theocracy Argument reply January 22, 2020

23913494

What a moronic and dishonest statement! Only an idiot would be trying to claim a theocracy argument was postulated on this thread.

Whereas 23913494 is your reply to the following post #23913307:

Do you recall writing this:

23910475

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians.

And I told you that your statement is not true?

You used the word “nation” two times that America was founded as a Christian “NATION” and America was a “NATION” founded by Christians.

I don’t have much of a problem had you written Virginia was founded as a Christian State. Etc for the states that may have been. I won’t bother going through the history of each state and whether Christianity would be a legitimate founding principle of each state when most were originally established as a colony under the authority of the King if England.

But now you come around to a truthful statement that the establishment clause restricted the federal government from establishing a NATIONAL religion.

In other words our national system of government is NOT and all the original states when referred to as the United States of America were NOT founded as a Christian nation.

That I am correct is even further verified by your confirmation that half the states did not choose to establish or continue a state religion.

I have posted 23913307 so all can see that I tell the truth.

Porter Rockwell says I dishonestly claimed “a theocracy argument was postulated on this thread”

I never wrote or ever thought about claiming that a theocracy argument was postulated on this thread. What’s with this dude? How do you stop this?

For the record my case against announcing that America was founded as a Christian nation has never had anything to do with something called a theocracy argument

Never did. Never will.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23913527

There were no other religions other than Christianity that was a state established religion. That ought to tell you something.

Key words in your argument is “state established religion.” You make no case that we ever had a nationally established religion.

Thus America was not founded as a Christian nation.

Some states were founded as Christian states. But those days are gone. But that is the way to correctly state what you want to say about Christianity and our nation’s founding.

 

[ding]

23913527

There were no other religions other than Christianity that was a state established religion. That ought to tell you something.

Key words in your argument is “state established religion.” You make no case that we ever had a nationally established religion.

Thus America was not founded as a Christian nation.

Some states were founded as Christian states. But those days are gone. But that is the way to correctly state what you want to say about Christianity and our nation’s founding.

That’s because we never had a national religion. The 1st amendment precludes that explicitly. So what?

The nation was founded on Judea Christian values and principles. That’s what it means to me when I say our nation was founded as a Christian nation.

The Mayflower Compact, the founding statements of the early universities, the text book that all colonial children used in school, the statements of the Founding Fathers all support that early America was overwhelmingly influenced by Christianity.

 

[ding]

The full text of the Mayflower Compact is as follows:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.:

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith, and the honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another; covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/colonial-america/mayflower-compact

The Mayflower Compact created laws for Mayflower Pilgrims and non-Pilgrims alike for the good of their new colony. It was a short document which established that:

• the colonists would remain loyal subjects to King James, despite their need for self-governance
  
  
• the colonists would create and enact “laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices…” for the good of the colony, and abide by those laws
  
  
• the colonists would create one society and work together to further it
  
  
• the colonists would live in accordance with the Christian faith
  

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Reply to 23914595 January 22 2020:

The nation was founded on Judea Christian values and principles. That’s what it means to me when I say our nation was founded as a Christian nation.

Were any other values and principles involved?

When you say our nation was founded as a Christian nation on Judeo Christian values and principles you are excluding all other values and principles.

You are dismissing and ignoring the belief of several of the founding fathers that they had to protect their unprecedented experiment in self rule from supernatural Christian religion itself.

• Jefferson: “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.“

It took much much more than 1800 years of Christian values to produce what John Adams, Jefferson and Madison set forth for us.

Why can’t you be satisfied with the indisputable historical fact that life in “early America was overwhelmingly influenced by Christianity.”

When you say ‘influenced by Christianity’ what Christianity are you referring to?

Is it Revival Christianity after Cane Ridge, Kentucky in 1801? You know, the Christianity that Alexis de Tocqueville witnessed in 1830 or was it the cerebral Unitarian Christianity of John Adams? Or the quiet sober Diest/Christianity of George Washington. Or was it Jefferson’s not-divine Christianity?

Or was it Christianity in decline following the 1776 Revolution.

If you don’t believe me that Christianity was in decline during first two of America’s founding decades - read these accounts:

Revival at Cane Ridge | Christian History Magazine

• On a trip to Tennessee in 1794, Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote anxiously about frontier settlers, “When I reflect that not one in a hundred came here to get religion, but rather to get plenty of good land, I think it will be well if some or many do not eventually lose their souls.”

• Andrew Fulton, a Presbyterian missionary from Scotland, discovered in Nashville and in “all the newly formed towns in this western colony, there are few religious people.”

• The minutes of the frontier Transylvania Presbytery reveal deep concern about the “prevalence of vice & infidelity, the great apparent declension of true vital religion in too many places.”

• Rampant alcoholism and avaricious land-grabbing were matched by the increasing popularity of both universalism (the doctrine that all will be saved) and deism (the belief that God is uninvolved in the world).

• Methodist James Smith, traveling near Lexington in the autumn of 1795 feared that “the universalists, joining with the Deists, had given Christianity a deadly stab hereabouts.”

• Hyperbole, perhaps. Still, during the six years preceding 1800, the Methodist Church—most popular among the expanding middle and lower classes—declined in national membership from 67,643 to 61,351.

• In the 1790s the population of frontier Kentucky tripled, but the already meager Methodist membership decreased.

So why do you have to make it your primary bone of contention ........that a religion that requires belief that ‘God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantial persons’. the Son (part Two of the Trinity) came to earth and shed his blood to atone for all humankind’s sins, was crucified, dead and buried, then rose from the dead and went back to heaven, and all you have to do to avoid eternal damnation in hell is believe the story and the preachers and the Bible is the Word if God. No other religion is true. And behave yourself of course to some degree.........is the sole founding principle and value that created the United States of America?

I realize it’s a long question, but you really need to reply with something other than there were a lot of Christian believers at the time of the founding.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Mayflower Compact

Reply to 23914931 January 23 2020

The full text of the Mayflower Compact is as follows:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James

.....for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith, and the honor of our King and Country,

the colonists would remain loyal subjects to King James, despite their need for self-governance

Don’t you find it odd to try to make an argument that America was founded as a Christian nation to crediting a Christian sect that

• came to America as Loyal Subjects of their Sovereign Lord King James?

• was extinct prior to the American Revolution

• was not tolerant of other religions or dissent from theirs.

Just wondering?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Comment on 23905496 January 23 2020

4) I told you before that whether America is in an urban or agricultural environment, unless and until there is religious Liberty, I can deduce NOTHING about whether or not Christians could be relevant while being locked out of all public discussions.

During the actual founding of America, middle and lower class Americans from 1776 to 1801 were more interested in grabbing land than being good faithful Christians.

Revival at Cane Ridge | Christian History Magazine

• On a trip to Tennessee in 1794, Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote anxiously about frontier settlers, “When I reflect that not one in a hundred came here to get religion, but rather to get plenty of good land, I think it will be well if some or many do not eventually lose their souls.”

• Andrew Fulton, a Presbyterian missionary from Scotland, discovered in Nashville and in “all the newly formed towns in this western colony, there are few religious people.”

• The minutes of the frontier Transylvania Presbytery reveal deep concern about the “prevalence of vice & infidelity, the great apparent declension of true vital religion in too many places.”

• Rampant alcoholism and avaricious land-grabbing were matched by the increasing popularity of both universalism (the doctrine that all will be saved) and deism (the belief that God is uninvolved in the world).

• Methodist James Smith, traveling near Lexington in the autumn of 1795 feared that “the universalists, joining with the Deists, had given Christianity a deadly stab hereabouts.”

• Hyperbole, perhaps. Still, during the six years preceding 1800, the Methodist Church—most popular among the expanding middle and lower classes—declined in national membership from 67,643 to 61,351.

• In the 1790s the population of frontier Kentucky tripled, but the already meager Methodist membership decreased.

Why is Porter Rockwell working so hard to convince everybody that America was founded as a Christian nation when for a quarter century following the American Revolution acquiring land to farm it was more important than practicing Christianity morality.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Comment on 23861832 January 23 2020

Politics is nothing more than religion in action. Our sense of right and wrong are all predicated on moral values and we got from biblical precepts. The very first governing document of the New World was the Mayflower Compact. It states:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and “advancements of the Christian faith”

Okay, I’m well aware that St. Augustine is the oldest city in the U.S, the Spaniards were there before the colonists and that other colonists preceded those on the Mayflower. That Mayflower Compact was the first GOVERNING document of the New World. Colonization and founding are synonymous.

The above is from Porter Rockwell. It is from the original post.

When Porter is talking about founding s Christian nation, I expected he would be wanting to discuss founding of an actual nation which took place at the end of the 18th century.

I’ve gone back and checked. Mr Rockwell has misstated his thread .

He should have said North Massachusetts was founded as a Christian colony.

I have no objection to that.

It has little to do with founding the United States of America.

 

[ding]

Reply to 23914595 January 22 2020:

The nation was founded on Judea Christian values and principles. That’s what it means to me when I say our nation was founded as a Christian nation.

Were any other values and principles involved?

When you say our nation was founded as a Christian nation on Judeo Christian values and principles you are excluding all other values and principles.

You are dismissing and ignoring the belief of several of the founding fathers that they had to protect their unprecedented experiment in self rule from supernatural Christian religion itself.

• Jefferson: “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.“

It took much much more than 1800 years of Christian values to produce what John Adams, Jefferson and Madison set forth for us.

Why can’t you be satisfied with the indisputable historical fact that life in “early America was overwhelmingly influenced by Christianity.”

When you say ‘influenced by Christianity’ what Christianity are you referring to?

Is it Revival Christianity after Cane Ridge, Kentucky in 1801? You know, the Christianity that Alexis de Tocqueville witnessed in 1830 or was it the cerebral Unitarian Christianity of John Adams? Or the quiet sober Diest/Christianity of George Washington. Or was it Jefferson’s not-divine Christianity?

Or was it Christianity in decline following the 1776 Revolution.

If you don’t believe me that Christianity was in decline during first two of America’s founding decades - read these accounts:

Revival at Cane Ridge | Christian History Magazine

• On a trip to Tennessee in 1794, Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote anxiously about frontier settlers, “When I reflect that not one in a hundred came here to get religion, but rather to get plenty of good land, I think it will be well if some or many do not eventually lose their souls.”

• Andrew Fulton, a Presbyterian missionary from Scotland, discovered in Nashville and in “all the newly formed towns in this western colony, there are few religious people.”

• The minutes of the frontier Transylvania Presbytery reveal deep concern about the “prevalence of vice & infidelity, the great apparent declension of true vital religion in too many places.”

• Rampant alcoholism and avaricious land-grabbing were matched by the increasing popularity of both universalism (the doctrine that all will be saved) and deism (the belief that God is uninvolved in the world).

• Methodist James Smith, traveling near Lexington in the autumn of 1795 feared that “the universalists, joining with the Deists, had given Christianity a deadly stab hereabouts.”

• Hyperbole, perhaps. Still, during the six years preceding 1800, the Methodist Church—most popular among the expanding middle and lower classes—declined in national membership from 67,643 to 61,351.

• In the 1790s the population of frontier Kentucky tripled, but the already meager Methodist membership decreased.

So why do you have to make it your primary bone of contention ........that a religion that requires belief that ‘God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantial persons’. the Son (part Two of the Trinity) came to earth and shed his blood to atone for all humankind’s sins, was crucified, dead and buried, then rose from the dead and went back to heaven, and all you have to do to avoid eternal damnation in hell is believe the story and the preachers and the Bible is the Word if God. No other religion is true. And behave yourself of course to some degree.........is the sole founding principle and value that created the United States of America?

I realize it’s a long question, but you really need to reply with something other than there were a lot of Christian believers at the time of the founding.

I can reply anyway I want, just as you replied anyway you want. The sole principle is virtue. Virtue is the greatest organizing principle there is. Birds of a feather flock together. Virtue is a successful behavior that naturally leads to success. A people who behave with virtue will experience peace and harmony. A people who behave without virtue will experience disorder and discord. Christianity teaches virtue.

When i say I believe our nation was founded on Judeo Christian values and principles I am not excluding all other values and principles. I am telling you that the overwhelming vast majority of people who lived during colonial times were Christians whose values and principles were informed by their Christian faith. Their values and principles are too numerous to list but can be simplified as virtue. So I am not excluding any successful behaviors or principles at all. I am telling you that whatever successful behaviors they had were informed by their Christian beliefs.

You are the one who is taking the Founding Fathers quotes out of context. To a man they all believed that freedom and liberty can not exist without virtue and morality and that virtue and morality cannot exist in the absence of religion. Something that every militant atheist state has proven without exception.

You seem to think diversity of thought within Christianity is a weakness. I see it as a strength. Growth filled communities explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth. Diversity of thought is critical to that process.

You do realize that even natural selection agrees that religion offers a functional advantage over atheism, right? Otherwise, religion would have died out long ago.

You need to contrast this with the history of the atheistic regimes to see the bigger picture.

 

[ding]

Mayflower Compact

Reply to 23914931 January 23 2020

The full text of the Mayflower Compact is as follows:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James

.....for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith, and the honor of our King and Country,

the colonists would remain loyal subjects to King James, despite their need for self-governance

Don’t you find it odd to try to make an argument that America was founded as a Christian nation to crediting a Christian sect that

• came to America as Loyal Subjects of their Sovereign Lord King James?

• was extinct prior to the American Revolution

• was not tolerant of other religions or dissent from theirs.

Just wondering?

First of all, they weren’t intolerant of other religions. Atheists are intolerant of religion which is why they try to subordinate religion and deny our Christian heritage. A people without a heritage are easily persuaded. Which is why every single militant atheist state that has ever existed was a communist state.

I don’t see a problem or incongruity with the people on the Mayflower coming to America as loyal subjects of the crown. That was over a hundred years before the revolution and circumstances were not the same. I’m surprised you didn’t already understand that and that I am having to explain it to you.

I don’t know what you mean by they were extinct before the revolution. Yes, the individuals who came over on the Mayflower died. That’s quite natural. People don’t live 200 years. So are you saying the Puritan separatist sect died out? So what? That too is quite natural. Again it seems like you believe diversity is bad. That if everyone doesn’t believe the exact same thing then what they believe must be invalid. That’s flawed logic. It would be bad if everyone believed the same thing or was forced to believe the same thing. That’s atheism, and atheism leads to communism.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Comment on 23905496 January 23 2020

4) I told you before that whether America is in an urban or agricultural environment, unless and until there is religious Liberty, I can deduce NOTHING about whether or not Christians could be relevant while being locked out of all public discussions.

During the actual founding of America, middle and lower class Americans from 1776 to 1801 were more interested in grabbing land than being good faithful Christians.

Revival at Cane Ridge | Christian History Magazine

• On a trip to Tennessee in 1794, Methodist bishop Francis Asbury wrote anxiously about frontier settlers, “When I reflect that not one in a hundred came here to get religion, but rather to get plenty of good land, I think it will be well if some or many do not eventually lose their souls.”

• Andrew Fulton, a Presbyterian missionary from Scotland, discovered in Nashville and in “all the newly formed towns in this western colony, there are few religious people.”

• The minutes of the frontier Transylvania Presbytery reveal deep concern about the “prevalence of vice & infidelity, the great apparent declension of true vital religion in too many places.”

• Rampant alcoholism and avaricious land-grabbing were matched by the increasing popularity of both universalism (the doctrine that all will be saved) and deism (the belief that God is uninvolved in the world).

• Methodist James Smith, traveling near Lexington in the autumn of 1795 feared that “the universalists, joining with the Deists, had given Christianity a deadly stab hereabouts.”

• Hyperbole, perhaps. Still, during the six years preceding 1800, the Methodist Church—most popular among the expanding middle and lower classes—declined in national membership from 67,643 to 61,351.

• In the 1790s the population of frontier Kentucky tripled, but the already meager Methodist membership decreased.

Why is Porter Rockwell working so hard to convince everybody that America was founded as a Christian nation when for a quarter century following the American Revolution acquiring land to farm it was more important than practicing Christianity morality.

Do you realize that there are only three people on this thread? Me, you and one other guy... and he rejects your insanity.

If every swinging soul in America were an atheist at that time, I'd still be right. Everybody in America, at any time, has ever been a Christian. Even Christians - every one of them are sinners, so you are wasting bandwidth.

The more pressing question is, how come you are creating straw man arguments to argue against what I said? What kind of screwed up agenda are you peddling that requires such a level of dishonesty? OR do you skim through posts, assign your own meaning to the OP and ignore everything else?

How can you go onto any thread about God and morality and show such disrespect? Do you have no shame? Are you that devoid of an ability to show respect for things you don't believe in? Disagreeing is one thing, but outright LIES are something else.

You have made it clear that you are a socialist and you don't believe in private property Rights. That does not give you cause to come here and LIE about what I've posted.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Comment on 23861832 January 23 2020

Politics is nothing more than religion in action. Our sense of right and wrong are all predicated on moral values and we got from biblical precepts. The very first governing document of the New World was the Mayflower Compact. It states:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and “advancements of the Christian faith”

Okay, I’m well aware that St. Augustine is the oldest city in the U.S, the Spaniards were there before the colonists and that other colonists preceded those on the Mayflower. That Mayflower Compact was the first GOVERNING document of the New World. Colonization and founding are synonymous.

The above is from Porter Rockwell. It is from the original post.

When Porter is talking about founding s Christian nation, I expected he would be wanting to discuss founding of an actual nation which took place at the end of the 18th century.

I’ve gone back and checked. Mr Rockwell has misstated his thread .

He should have said North Massachusetts was founded as a Christian colony.

I have no objection to that.

It has little to do with founding the United States of America.

You post nothing save of complete and total idiocy.

ALL of our common law is based on Christian principles. If we were a non-Christian nation, it would be legal for people to commit Female Genitalia Mutilation; murder under some circumstances would be legal; your Right to protect private property would not exist; infanticide and pedophilia would have been legalized.

Stop with the idiocy and dishonesty. Just stop.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Reply to 23914595 -7829 January 23 2020

When i say I believe our nation was founded on Judeo Christian values and principles I am not excluding all other values and principles. I am telling you that the overwhelming vast majority of people who lived during colonial times were Christians whose values and principles were informed by their Christian faith.

When you expressly say as it is related to the actual period around 1790 that “our nation was founded on Judeo Christian values and principles” based upon recognizing the undisputed fact that the “overwhelming vast majority of people who lived during colonial times were Christians” you are limiting the ‘founding’ of America to human civil behavior as it has been historically regulated by one organized Christian Church or the other to be the driving force.

I am saying based on Jefferson and Madison’s (actual “founding” fathers) virtue, principles and most importantly, their ‘ intellectual contribution, I cannot accept your belief that the Christian well behaved general population by virtue of their formidable numbers were capable of contributing to the actual work of creating a successful nation without the intellect and education of Madison and Jefferson to lead the way.

What strengthens my case is the devotion and tenacity these two ‘fathers’ and first of our presidents, ensure the republic they were creating did not have a government that was tied to any religion whatsoever.

And what did Jefferson’s intellect and virtue get from Christians in general? Opposition.

https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu//available/etd-11222005-122027/unrestricted/THESIS2.pdf

• These ministers publicly vilified Thomas Jefferson as an anti-religious atheist who was unfit to hold the highest office in the land. Sermon upon sermon was published by layperson and cleric alike that sought to prove beyond doubt Jefferson’s infidelity.”

Thank goodness Christian mob virtue did not overcome Jefferson’s intellect.

 

[ding]

Reply to 23914595 -7829 January 23 2020

When i say I believe our nation was founded on Judeo Christian values and principles I am not excluding all other values and principles. I am telling you that the overwhelming vast majority of people who lived during colonial times were Christians whose values and principles were informed by their Christian faith.

When you expressly say as it is related to the actual period around 1790 that “our nation was founded on Judeo Christian values and principles” based upon recognizing the undisputed fact that the “overwhelming vast majority of people who lived during colonial times were Christians” you are limiting the ‘founding’ of America to human civil behavior as it has been historically regulated by one organized Christian Church or the other to be the driving force.

I am saying based on Jefferson and Madison’s (actual “founding” fathers) virtue, principles and most importantly, their ‘ intellectual contribution, I cannot accept your belief that the Christian well behaved general population by virtue of their formidable numbers were capable of contributing to the actual work of creating a successful nation without the intellect and education of Madison and Jefferson to lead the way.

What strengthens my case is the devotion and tenacity these two ‘fathers’ and first of our presidents, ensure the republic they were creating did not have a government that was tied to any religion whatsoever.

And what did Jefferson’s intellect and virtue get from Christians in general? Opposition.

https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu//available/etd-11222005-122027/unrestricted/THESIS2.pdf

• These ministers publicly vilified Thomas Jefferson as an anti-religious atheist who was unfit to hold the highest office in the land. Sermon upon sermon was published by layperson and cleric alike that sought to prove beyond doubt Jefferson’s infidelity.”

Thank goodness Christian mob virtue did not overcome Jefferson’s intellect.

I’m not limiting my observations to the time frame around 1790. I provided examples and testimony which spanned from 1620 through 1835. That's two hundred years of examples and evidence. So this isn't some one off observation. It is a systemic observation. And I am not limiting the ‘founding’ of America to human civil behavior that was regulated by one organized Christian Church. I am telling you that America was great because its people were good. The people were virtuous. It's Darwinian. Successful behaviors naturally lead to success just as failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. And lastly I am telling you that they were virtuous because their Christian faith informed their values and principles to strive to be good.

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison understood that virtue is the driving force.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Thomas Jefferson

"The order of nature [is] that individual happiness shall be inseparable from the practice of virtue." Thomas Jefferson

"Without virtue, happiness cannot be." Thomas Jefferson

"To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea." James Madison

So the question is why don't you believe that virtue is the driving force? Because if you do then the argument becomes can man be virtuous without religion, right?

 

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Reply to 23914595 -7829 January 23 2020

When i say I believe our nation was founded on Judeo Christian values and principles I am not excluding all other values and principles. I am telling you that the overwhelming vast majority of people who lived during colonial times were Christians whose values and principles were informed by their Christian faith.

When you expressly say as it is related to the actual period around 1790 that “our nation was founded on Judeo Christian values and principles” based upon recognizing the undisputed fact that the “overwhelming vast majority of people who lived during colonial times were Christians” you are limiting the ‘founding’ of America to human civil behavior as it has been historically regulated by one organized Christian Church or the other to be the driving force.

I am saying based on Jefferson and Madison’s (actual “founding” fathers) virtue, principles and most importantly, their ‘ intellectual contribution, I cannot accept your belief that the Christian well behaved general population by virtue of their formidable numbers were capable of contributing to the actual work of creating a successful nation without the intellect and education of Madison and Jefferson to lead the way.

What strengthens my case is the devotion and tenacity these two ‘fathers’ and first of our presidents, ensure the republic they were creating did not have a government that was tied to any religion whatsoever.

And what did Jefferson’s intellect and virtue get from Christians in general? Opposition.

https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu//available/etd-11222005-122027/unrestricted/THESIS2.pdf

• These ministers publicly vilified Thomas Jefferson as an anti-religious atheist who was unfit to hold the highest office in the land. Sermon upon sermon was published by layperson and cleric alike that sought to prove beyond doubt Jefferson’s infidelity.”

Thank goodness Christian mob virtue did not overcome Jefferson’s intellect.

I have been quoting the founding fathers. You are trying to define the rule by exception. I am defining the rule.

https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/founding-fathers-united-states#section_10

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles." George Washington

". . . Virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone that renders us invincible. These are the tactics we should study. If we lose these, we are conquered, fallen indeed . . . so long as our manners and principles remain sound, there is no danger." Patrick Henry

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our constitution as a whale goes through a net."
John Adams

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams

"Liberty can no more exist without virtue and independence than the body can live and move without a soul."
John Adams

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics."
John Adams

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."
John Adams

 

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What strengthens my case is the devotion and tenacity these two ‘fathers’ and first of our presidents, ensure the republic they were creating did not have a government that was tied to any religion whatsoever.

What strengthens my case that virtue cannot exist without religion is the history of every single atheistic state which has ever existed.

Not to mention it is indisputable the influence Christianity played in the success of the Republic.

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things.

In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country.

Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief.

I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society.

In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution.

Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other. Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.

Tocqueville gives this account of a court case in New York:
While I was in America, a witness, who happened to be called at the assizes of the county of Chester (state of New York), declared that he did not believe in the existence of God or in the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to admit his evidence, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all confidence of the court in what he was about to say. The newspapers related the fact without any further comment. The New York Spectator of August 23rd, 1831, relates the fact in the following terms:

"The court of common pleas of Chester county (New York), a few days since rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked, that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no case in a Christian country, where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief."