America Founded as a Christian Nation

[NotfooledbyW]

23905496

4) I told you before that whether America is in an urban or agricultural environment, unless and until there is religious Liberty, I can deduce NOTHING about whether or not Christians could be relevant while being locked out of all public discussions. We teach the theory of evolution, but the secular humanists are scared to death that if children are taught BOTH the theory of evolution along with creationism, the humanists and secularists will lose their stranglehold on America.

Are you telling me that you are able to determine as fact that the colonial times spirit of American individualistic self reliance and toughness and their morality/character were the result purely of Biblical Christian upbringing and not the result of owning their own land, defending their own land and working it to survive and pass it down to their children.

Ethan Allen was one such farmer. His Colonial spirit was not driven by a stale belief in a Judeo Christian God.

• Ethan Allen was a freethinker and critic of Christianity. He wrote Reason, the Only Oracle of Man, in which he espoused natural religion and denied the validity of traditional religions, including Christianity. It is said that he stopped his wedding ceremony when the phrase "agreeable to the laws of God" was uttered, in order to clarify that the only god meant was the god of nature, and not the god of any organized religion or any other god. Only after he was reassured on this point would he allow the ceremony to proceed. Ethan Allen

Are you telling me that the leader of the Green Mountain Boys who took Fort Ticonderoga from the Crown of England was a secularist and helped ruin America for Bible toting Christians.

ALLEN’s boys hauled the fortress cannon to Boston to defend that City from the Redcoats, All led by an anti-Christian.

Fascinating bit of history. You ought to read about it. Get the Biblical cobwebs out of your head.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23905496

4) I told you before that whether America is in an urban or agricultural environment, unless and until there is religious Liberty, I can deduce NOTHING about whether or not Christians could be relevant while being locked out of all public discussions. We teach the theory of evolution, but the secular humanists are scared to death that if children are taught BOTH the theory of evolution along with creationism, the humanists and secularists will lose their stranglehold on America.

Are you telling me that you are able to determine as fact that the colonial times spirit of American individualistic self reliance and toughness and their morality/character were the result purely of Biblical Christian upbringing and not the result of owning their own land, defending their own land and working it to survive and pass it down to their children.

Ethan Allen was one such farmer. His Colonial spirit was not driven by a stale belief in a Judeo Christian God.

• Ethan Allen was a freethinker and critic of Christianity. He wrote Reason, the Only Oracle of Man, in which he espoused natural religion and denied the validity of traditional religions, including Christianity. It is said that he stopped his wedding ceremony when the phrase "agreeable to the laws of God" was uttered, in order to clarify that the only god meant was the god of nature, and not the god of any organized religion or any other god. Only after he was reassured on this point would he allow the ceremony to proceed. Ethan Allen

Are you telling me that the leader of the Green Mountain Boys who took Fort Ticonderoga from the Crown of England was a secularist and helped ruin America for Bible toting Christians.

ALLEN’s boys hauled the fortress cannon to Boston to defend that City from the Redcoats, All led by an anti-Christian.

Fascinating bit of history. You ought to read about it. Get the Biblical cobwebs out of your head.

You ask WAAAYYY too many questions, parsed so that an intelligent reply is not possible, and give the worst of examples. I was told Mormons don't count when making my case; I don't believe in any Judeo Christian God and am opposed to organized religion and a lot of the B.S. that emanates from organized religion.

Some people get over-sensitive and don't want to explain themselves. If you say Jesus, they are pissed that you did not say Divine Legislator, Yahweh, Yashua, etc. Strange as it is to you, reprobates have been political leaders. At the end of the day, IF YOU WOULD ONLY READ THE THREAD, our concept of right and wrong; moral and immoral are predicated upon biblical precepts.

You are presuming that those who reject churchianity and organized religion are secularists. Hell, you just admitted that the man had no objection to the God of nature. I guess if you read his book (as opposed to looking up stuff on the net to support your theory) you might be one up on me. But, in all reality, Christians sometimes rally around the sorriest son of a bitch on God's green earth, believing his words to be the Word of God - i.e. Trump supporters. And organized religion supporters would tell you that I'm not a Christian (though never to my face.) This is not about organized religion or a theocracy.

Take a chill pill. Yes, sometimes, even the guy who isn't force feeding you organized religion may be the man every Christian is expecting to deliver them from evil. It's hard being fallible when dumb people expect Christians to be Jesus Christ incarnate.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23908477

I don't believe in any Judeo Christian God and am opposed to organized religion and a lot of the B.S. that emanates from organized religion.

You rarely directly answer questions. That prompts more questions.

Such as, why do you think America was founded as a Christian nation since the majority population that practiced Christianity at that time belonged to one or the other of the Congregations of an organized religion?

You see I agree that all the BS that goes with organized Christian religion had nothing to do with the founding of America.

America was founded as land and property owner nation at a time when most of the white population happened to be members of an organized Christian religion.

Andy there was a lot of land for the taking.

(French and Spanish explorers also members of organized religion did not settle and farm the land the way the English and Germans Settlers did in the original thirteen colonies and in states west.

Why and how that population believed they reassured themselves they wouldn’t spend eternity in hell had nothing to do with founding the nation.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23908477

IF YOU WOULD ONLY READ THE THREAD, our concept of right and wrong; moral and immoral are predicated upon biblical precepts.

I have read much of your wall of words. Just trying to find a coherent message somewhere driven your obsession that we admit to you that America was founded as a Christian nation.

I strongly reject your edict or whatever it is that our concept of right and wrong, moral and immoral, being predicated upon biblical precepts, has to mean that our nation was founded based upon the system from where we learned our concept of right and wrong.

Also I see there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong after seeing this:

23905496

1) Slavery is not a sin. It was practiced way before the United States came into existence.

Sin is a biblical term. That means little to me. You appear to be defending slavery on an “everybody was doing it defense”

The difference between you and me is I don’t care where my sense of right and wrong comes from, since I know damn well that slavery is morally wrong and it’s reprehensible to me that you would argue that it’s not a sin.

 

[ding]

23905496

4) I told you before that whether America is in an urban or agricultural environment, unless and until there is religious Liberty, I can deduce NOTHING about whether or not Christians could be relevant while being locked out of all public discussions. We teach the theory of evolution, but the secular humanists are scared to death that if children are taught BOTH the theory of evolution along with creationism, the humanists and secularists will lose their stranglehold on America.

Are you telling me that you are able to determine as fact that the colonial times spirit of American individualistic self reliance and toughness and their morality/character were the result purely of Biblical Christian upbringing and not the result of owning their own land, defending their own land and working it to survive and pass it down to their children.

Ethan Allen was one such farmer. His Colonial spirit was not driven by a stale belief in a Judeo Christian God.

• Ethan Allen was a freethinker and critic of Christianity. He wrote Reason, the Only Oracle of Man, in which he espoused natural religion and denied the validity of traditional religions, including Christianity. It is said that he stopped his wedding ceremony when the phrase "agreeable to the laws of God" was uttered, in order to clarify that the only god meant was the god of nature, and not the god of any organized religion or any other god. Only after he was reassured on this point would he allow the ceremony to proceed. Ethan Allen

Are you telling me that the leader of the Green Mountain Boys who took Fort Ticonderoga from the Crown of England was a secularist and helped ruin America for Bible toting Christians.

ALLEN’s boys hauled the fortress cannon to Boston to defend that City from the Redcoats, All led by an anti-Christian.

Fascinating bit of history. You ought to read about it. Get the Biblical cobwebs out of your head.

Actually we have a first hand eyewitness account who tells us the role Christianity played in the early years after our founding and how important it was to the success of the Republic.

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country. Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion -- for who can search the human heart? But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society. In the United States, the sovereign authority is religious...there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth. In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts -- the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims.

 

[ding]

23908477

I don't believe in any Judeo Christian God and am opposed to organized religion and a lot of the B.S. that emanates from organized religion.

You rarely directly answer questions. That prompts more questions.

Such as, why do you think America was founded as a Christian nation since the majority population that practiced Christianity at that time belonged to one or the other of the Congregations of an organized religion?

You see I agree that all the BS that goes with organized Christian religion had nothing to do with the founding of America.

America was founded as land and property owner nation at a time when most of the white population happened to be members of an organized Christian religion.

Andy there was a lot of land for the taking.

(French and Spanish explorers also members of organized religion did not settle and farm the land the way the English and Germans Settlers did in the original thirteen colonies and in states west.

Why and how that population believed they reassured themselves they wouldn’t spend eternity in hell had nothing to do with founding the nation.

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians. The Christian faith was overwhelmingly displayed and it's influences were unmistakable including but not limited to the freedom to practice religion.

America's Christian Heritage is indisputable. The second best-selling book in the American colonies was the New England Primer (the best selling book was the Bible). Five million copies of the New England Primer existed in America in 1776. At that time, there were only four million people in America. It was the first textbook ever printed in America and was used to teach reading and Bible lessons in our schools until the twentieth century. In fact, many of the Founding Fathers and their children learned to read from The New England Primer. Many of its selections were drawn from the King James Bible.

The New England Primer, 1777 edition

And then there are the universities. Harvard's Rules and Precepts of 1636 tells us that all knowledge rests on the foundation of God and Jesus Christ. Harvard's original motto was Truth for Christ and the Church.

Princeton's founding statement of 1746 was Cursed is all Learning that is contrary to the Cross of Christ.

Coumbia university's seal of 1755 has the hebrew Tetragrammaton, YHVW (Jehovah) within a radiant triangle. The school's motto "In Lumine Tuo Videbimus Lumen" means "In thy light we shall see light" Psalms 36:9, arcs across the top.

And there are the founding fathers themselves. In 1832 Gouverneur Morris said, “Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man towards God.”

In 1790 Samuel Adams said, ""Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity...in short of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.“

In 1798 Benjamin Rush said, "In contemplating the political institutions of the United States, I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes, and take so little pains to prevent them. We profess to be republicans and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of
government. That is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible.”

In 1836 Noah Webster said, “In my view, the Christian Religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed...no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

Now do you understand why I believe what I do?

 

[ding]

23908477

IF YOU WOULD ONLY READ THE THREAD, our concept of right and wrong; moral and immoral are predicated upon biblical precepts.

I have read much of your wall of words. Just trying to find a coherent message somewhere driven your obsession that we admit to you that America was founded as a Christian nation.

I strongly reject your edict or whatever it is that our concept of right and wrong, moral and immoral, being predicated upon biblical precepts, has to mean that our nation was founded based upon the system from where we learned our concept of right and wrong.

Also I see there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong after seeing this:

23905496

1) Slavery is not a sin. It was practiced way before the United States came into existence.

Sin is a biblical term. That means little to me. You appear to be defending slavery on an “everybody was doing it defense”

The difference between you and me is I don’t care where my sense of right and wrong comes from, since I know damn well that slavery is morally wrong and it’s reprehensible to me that you would argue that it’s not a sin.

So now let's look at the other side of the coin; nations without religion.

We have the testimony of the founding fathers of militant atheist states...

Founding Father of Communism on Religion
"A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could." Vladimir Lenin

"We must know how to combat religion..." Vladimir Lenin

"Marxism is materialism. As such, it is as relentlessly hostile to religion..." Vladimir Lenin

Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. Vladimir Lenin

"...The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion..." Vladimir Lenin

"The propaganda of atheism is necessary for our programs." Vladimir Lenin

"Communism is naturalized humanism." Karl Marx




And we have examples of the actions that were taken by militant atheist states...

The vast majority of people in the Russian empire were, at the time of the revolution, religious believers, whereas the communists aimed to break the power of all religious institutions and eventually replace religious belief with atheism. "Science" was counterposed to "religious superstition" in the media and in academic writing. The main religions of pre-revolutionary Russia persisted throughout the entire Soviet period, but they were only tolerated within certain limits. Generally, this meant that believers were free to worship in private and in their respective religious buildings (churches, mosques, synagogues etc.), but public displays of religion outside of such designations were prohibited. In addition, religious institutions were not allowed to express their views in any type of mass media, and many religious buildings were demolished or used for other purposes.

Atheists waged a 70-year war on religious belief in the Soviet Union. The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques, and temples; it executed religious leaders; it flooded the schools and media with anti-religious propaganda; and it introduced a belief system called “scientific atheism,” complete with atheist rituals, proselytizers, and a promise of worldly salvation. But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs.

In the long run atheism failed to win many souls. Religion strengthened underground and was revived to help fight the Second World War. It flourished after the fall of Communism.

Religion in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

I've got so many more examples to share. Just let me know if you want to see them.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23908477

I don't believe in any Judeo Christian God and am opposed to organized religion and a lot of the B.S. that emanates from organized religion.

You rarely directly answer questions. That prompts more questions.

Such as, why do you think America was founded as a Christian nation since the majority population that practiced Christianity at that time belonged to one or the other of the Congregations of an organized religion?

You see I agree that all the BS that goes with organized Christian religion had nothing to do with the founding of America.

America was founded as land and property owner nation at a time when most of the white population happened to be members of an organized Christian religion.

Andy there was a lot of land for the taking.

(French and Spanish explorers also members of organized religion did not settle and farm the land the way the English and Germans Settlers did in the original thirteen colonies and in states west.

Why and how that population believed they reassured themselves they wouldn’t spend eternity in hell had nothing to do with founding the nation.

I suppose that if you could document that most of the population were land owners, you might have something. Fact is, many were dirt poor. Bear in mind that over half the original people on the Mayflower died in the first year. Those in Jamestown didn't fare much better.

So, your theory is if you don't own land, you become socialist?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23908477

IF YOU WOULD ONLY READ THE THREAD, our concept of right and wrong; moral and immoral are predicated upon biblical precepts.

I have read much of your wall of words. Just trying to find a coherent message somewhere driven your obsession that we admit to you that America was founded as a Christian nation.

I strongly reject your edict or whatever it is that our concept of right and wrong, moral and immoral, being predicated upon biblical precepts, has to mean that our nation was founded based upon the system from where we learned our concept of right and wrong.

Also I see there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong after seeing this:

23905496

1) Slavery is not a sin. It was practiced way before the United States came into existence.

Sin is a biblical term. That means little to me. You appear to be defending slavery on an “everybody was doing it defense”

The difference between you and me is I don’t care where my sense of right and wrong comes from, since I know damn well that slavery is morally wrong and it’s reprehensible to me that you would argue that it’s not a sin.

If you thought I did not bring something to the table, you would have ignored me a long time ago.YOU appear to appeal to people on the basis of slavery being "wrong" for some reason. Get a grip.

IF slavery is so "wrong," where is the proof? The Bible clearly and unequivocally tells us "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Galatians 5: 1 Of about 20 versions the NASB version and two others render that word bondage as "slavery."

The very people you pander to by bringing that subject up are all about a government - God. So, how can you claim that slavery is somehow wrong when you have a Socialist Surveillance Number ... "Social Security Number" and the government lays claim to you? I am truly anti-slavery. Companies use recruiters to locate and buy you. You work for reduced wages and a profiteer makes money off your labor while they do nothing. It's legal and many companies use that method of getting people jobs. What I don't understand is that the people who bitch about slavery are the very ones trying to entangle others into it.

If you think 10 or 12 paragraphs is a wall of words, dude, nobody can give you a synopsis of the situation. It took me THOUSANDS of pages to learn what I know over a period of over four decades, starting as a teen.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23908477

IF YOU WOULD ONLY READ THE THREAD, our concept of right and wrong; moral and immoral are predicated upon biblical precepts.

I have read much of your wall of words. Just trying to find a coherent message somewhere driven your obsession that we admit to you that America was founded as a Christian nation.

I strongly reject your edict or whatever it is that our concept of right and wrong, moral and immoral, being predicated upon biblical precepts, has to mean that our nation was founded based upon the system from where we learned our concept of right and wrong.

Also I see there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong after seeing this:

23905496

1) Slavery is not a sin. It was practiced way before the United States came into existence.

Sin is a biblical term. That means little to me. You appear to be defending slavery on an “everybody was doing it defense”

The difference between you and me is I don’t care where my sense of right and wrong comes from, since I know damn well that slavery is morally wrong and it’s reprehensible to me that you would argue that it’s not a sin.

So now let's look at the other side of the coin; nations without religion.

We have the testimony of the founding fathers of militant atheist states...

Founding Father of Communism on Religion
"A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could." Vladimir Lenin

"We must know how to combat religion..." Vladimir Lenin

"Marxism is materialism. As such, it is as relentlessly hostile to religion..." Vladimir Lenin

Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism. Vladimir Lenin

"...The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion..." Vladimir Lenin

"The propaganda of atheism is necessary for our programs." Vladimir Lenin

"Communism is naturalized humanism." Karl Marx




And we have examples of the actions that were taken by militant atheist states...

The vast majority of people in the Russian empire were, at the time of the revolution, religious believers, whereas the communists aimed to break the power of all religious institutions and eventually replace religious belief with atheism. "Science" was counterposed to "religious superstition" in the media and in academic writing. The main religions of pre-revolutionary Russia persisted throughout the entire Soviet period, but they were only tolerated within certain limits. Generally, this meant that believers were free to worship in private and in their respective religious buildings (churches, mosques, synagogues etc.), but public displays of religion outside of such designations were prohibited. In addition, religious institutions were not allowed to express their views in any type of mass media, and many religious buildings were demolished or used for other purposes.

Atheists waged a 70-year war on religious belief in the Soviet Union. The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques, and temples; it executed religious leaders; it flooded the schools and media with anti-religious propaganda; and it introduced a belief system called “scientific atheism,” complete with atheist rituals, proselytizers, and a promise of worldly salvation. But in the end, a majority of older Soviet citizens retained their religious beliefs and a crop of citizens too young to have experienced pre-Soviet times acquired religious beliefs.

In the long run atheism failed to win many souls. Religion strengthened underground and was revived to help fight the Second World War. It flourished after the fall of Communism.

Religion in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

I've got so many more examples to share. Just let me know if you want to see them.

But, but, but Thomas Jefferson uttered the words "separation of church and state" in a private letter once.

Then it took the United States Supreme Court about 160 years to get around to creating that doctrine as law in 1962. AND, amazingly, the high Court created that concept without one single statute and no precedent for it. The high Court literally pulled the doctrine out of their back ends. They violated the Constitution by legislating from the bench and they made it all up.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23910377

have a first hand eyewitness account who tells us the role Christianity played in the early years after our founding and how important it was to the success of the Republic.

What Alexis de Tocqueville witnessed four decades after the founding was that Christianity dominated American life. I have never doubted or rejected that.

I’m objecting to the request by the OP that Americans must agree to the title of this thread that America was founded as a Christian nation.

Because It was not

Because Alexis de Tocqueville found an abundance of Christians practicing their American New World style religion it does not make a case that America was founded or established to be a Christian nation four decades prior to a French nobleman’s trek around the new country for nine months.

I challenge you to tell me that one of the greatest founders did not explain exactly why it was that Alexis de Tocqueville would find the first generation of Americans to be freely and vigorously practicing various forms of New World Christian

• “We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt.”

Yes James Madison described two key founding principles; the rejection of monarchy and the separation of church and state.

Because America was founded to reject citizens being ruled, governed, coerced into obedience to god-ordained kings and god almighty bishops and priests is precisely why Christianity flourished in 1830 America..

It’s in your link where Alexis de Tocqueville was impressed with a judge in a court of l discriminating against a defendant because he did not believe in God. A case where the state did not quite get the message regarding separation of church and state. Thus Alexis de Tocqueville ignored the early signs that there is a true need to protect against the tyranny of the majority.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23910475

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians.

American was founded by Christians and non-Christians. And it was the non-Christian enlightenment principals that formed the basis for our system of government, separation of power and the separation of church and state.

Christians were involved, perhaps as a majority, however it was not Christian organized religion BS (as Porter Rockwell puts it) that drove the design of the founding of the government we got.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

land owners agrarian


23909223

America was founded as land and property owner nation at a time when most of the white population happened to be members of an organized Christian religion.

23910599

So, your theory is if you don't own land, you become socialist?

It would behoove you to learn to quit lying about what my points are. You replied to 23909223 which neither suggests nor implies anything about property ownership and socialism.


I base 23909223 on this:
Voting rights in the United States - Wikipedia

Women were largely prohibited from voting, as were men without property. Women could vote in New Jersey until 1807 (provided they could meet the property requirement) ...

Do you dispute America was founded on a basis of owning property and land?

 

[ding]

23910475

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians.

American was founded by Christians and non-Christians. And it was the non-Christian enlightenment principals that formed the basis for our system of government, separation of power and the separation of church and state.

Christians were involved, perhaps as a majority, however it was not Christian organized religion BS (as Porter Rockwell puts it) that drove the design of the founding of the government we got.

There is no perhaps about it. The nation was overwhelmingly Christian.

Read the part about education, university and founding fathers that you parsed out in your reply box.

 

[ding]

23910475

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians.

American was founded by Christians and non-Christians. And it was the non-Christian enlightenment principals that formed the basis for our system of government, separation of power and the separation of church and state.

Christians were involved, perhaps as a majority, however it was not Christian organized religion BS (as Porter Rockwell puts it) that drove the design of the founding of the government we got.

The Christian faith was overwhelmingly displayed and it's influences were unmistakable including but not limited to the freedom to practice religion.

America's Christian Heritage is indisputable. The second best-selling book in the American colonies was the New England Primer (the best selling book was the Bible). Five million copies of the New England Primer existed in America in 1776. At that time, there were only four million people in America. It was the first textbook ever printed in America and was used to teach reading and Bible lessons in our schools until the twentieth century. In fact, many of the Founding Fathers and their children learned to read from The New England Primer. Many of its selections were drawn from the King James Bible.

The New England Primer, 1777 edition

And then there are the universities. Harvard's Rules and Precepts of 1636 tells us that all knowledge rests on the foundation of God and Jesus Christ. Harvard's original motto was Truth for Christ and the Church.

Princeton's founding statement of 1746 was Cursed is all Learning that is contrary to the Cross of Christ.

Coumbia university's seal of 1755 has the hebrew Tetragrammaton, YHVW (Jehovah) within a radiant triangle. The school's motto "In Lumine Tuo Videbimus Lumen" means "In thy light we shall see light" Psalms 36:9, arcs across the top.

And there are the founding fathers themselves. In 1832 Gouverneur Morris said, “Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man towards God.”

In 1790 Samuel Adams said, ""Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity...in short of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.“

In 1798 Benjamin Rush said, "In contemplating the political institutions of the United States, I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes, and take so little pains to prevent them. We profess to be republicans and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of
government. That is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible.”

In 1836 Noah Webster said, “In my view, the Christian Religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed...no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

Now do you understand why I believe what I do?

 

[ding]

23910377

have a first hand eyewitness account who tells us the role Christianity played in the early years after our founding and how important it was to the success of the Republic.

What Alexis de Tocqueville witnessed four decades after the founding was that Christianity dominated American life. I have never doubted or rejected that.

I’m objecting to the request by the OP that Americans must agree to the title of this thread that America was founded as a Christian nation.

Because It was not

Because Alexis de Tocqueville found an abundance of Christians practicing their American New World style religion it does not make a case that America was founded or established to be a Christian nation four decades prior to a French nobleman’s trek around the new country for nine months.

I challenge you to tell me that one of the greatest founders did not explain exactly why it was that Alexis de Tocqueville would find the first generation of Americans to be freely and vigorously practicing various forms of New World Christian

• “We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt.”

Yes James Madison described two key founding principles; the rejection of monarchy and the separation of church and state.

Because America was founded to reject citizens being ruled, governed, coerced into obedience to god-ordained kings and god almighty bishops and priests is precisely why Christianity flourished in 1830 America..

It’s in your link where Alexis de Tocqueville was impressed with a judge in a court of l discriminating against a defendant because he did not believe in God. A case where the state did not quite get the message regarding separation of church and state. Thus Alexis de Tocqueville ignored the early signs that there is a true need to protect against the tyranny of the majority.

You do realize that the establishment clause as ratified restricted the federal government from establishing a national religion and did not restrict the states from establishing state religions, right? Of which half the states had at the time of ratification.

Thomas Jefferson even wrote a letter that explicitly stated that establishing a state religion is up to the states.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

23910377

have a first hand eyewitness account who tells us the role Christianity played in the early years after our founding and how important it was to the success of the Republic.

What Alexis de Tocqueville witnessed four decades after the founding was that Christianity dominated American life. I have never doubted or rejected that.

I’m objecting to the request by the OP that Americans must agree to the title of this thread that America was founded as a Christian nation.

Because It was not

Because Alexis de Tocqueville found an abundance of Christians practicing their American New World style religion it does not make a case that America was founded or established to be a Christian nation four decades prior to a French nobleman’s trek around the new country for nine months.

I challenge you to tell me that one of the greatest founders did not explain exactly why it was that Alexis de Tocqueville would find the first generation of Americans to be freely and vigorously practicing various forms of New World Christian

• “We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt.”

Yes James Madison described two key founding principles; the rejection of monarchy and the separation of church and state.

Because America was founded to reject citizens being ruled, governed, coerced into obedience to god-ordained kings and god almighty bishops and priests is precisely why Christianity flourished in 1830 America..

It’s in your link where Alexis de Tocqueville was impressed with a judge in a court of l discriminating against a defendant because he did not believe in God. A case where the state did not quite get the message regarding separation of church and state. Thus Alexis de Tocqueville ignored the early signs that there is a true need to protect against the tyranny of the majority.

You hate it because America WAS founded as a Christian nation. We were not founded as a theocracy, but we were founded as a Christian nation in that the common law (by which we are judged) came from Christian roots.

Our system of jurisprudence is based largely on the common law. We are governed by precedents / stare decisis that is derived from the Anglo Saxon system of jurisprudence. Common law has its roots in Christianity

https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4290&context=penn_law_review


We were founded as a Christian nation because the people who comprised the initial Americans were over 98 percent white Christians and their values were incorporated into the statutes that made this nation. That would also be inclusive of the United States Constitution which itself acknowledges a Christian God.


We were founded as a Christian nation:

"If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every constitution of every one of the 44 states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the well-being of the community. This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the constitution of Illinois, 1870: "We, the people of the state of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations," etc..."

Holy Trinity Church v U.S. 143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226 (1892)

Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. (1892)

Here is Article VI of the 1777 Georgia Constitution as an example:

"Article VI. The representatives shall be chosen out of the residents in each county, who shall have resided at least twelve months in this State, and three months in the county where they shall be elected; except the freeholders of the counties of Glynn and Camden, who are in a state of alarm, and who shall have the liberty of choosing one member each, as specified in the articles of this Constitution, in any other county, until they have residents sufficient to qualify them for more; and they shall be of the Protestant on, and of the age of twenty-one years, and shall be possessed in their own right of two hundred and fifty acres of land, or some property to the amount of two hundred and fifty pounds."

Government - 1777 Georgia Constitution - GeorgiaInfo

In the 1776 Constitution of Delaware:

"ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:

" I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced."

And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:

" I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

And all officers shall also take an oath of office."

Do I need to quote all the state constitutions?


The United States Constitution provides that:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (See Article VI of the Constitution)

So,many state constitutions required an oath be taken that one be a Christian in order to hold public office, but they were not subject to a test. All those politicians took a freaking oath that they WERE, in fact, Christian. So, what else were they? You mean every person that was connected to the Constitution was a liar OR is our resident troll living in a world of delusion? Why would the framers of the Constitution require office holders to be under oath KNOWING that their respective state oaths required one to be Christian before assuming office???

 

[Porter Rockwell]

land owners agrarian


23909223

America was founded as land and property owner nation at a time when most of the white population happened to be members of an organized Christian religion.

23910599

So, your theory is if you don't own land, you become socialist?

It would behoove you to learn to quit lying about what my points are. You replied to 23909223 which neither suggests nor implies anything about property ownership and socialism.


I base 23909223 on this:
Voting rights in the United States - Wikipedia

Women were largely prohibited from voting, as were men without property. Women could vote in New Jersey until 1807 (provided they could meet the property requirement) ...

Do you dispute America was founded on a basis of owning property and land?

I don't respond to multi quotes nor to hypocrites insinuating I lied about anything. You and I are done.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I think that there are enough facts in this thread to establish that America was founded as a Christian nation. The bulk of signers of the Declaration of Independence were devout Christians and it appears that Thomas Jefferson was on again - off again, but he appealed to a Christian base in their specific language.

Even with the adoption of the United States Constitution, we retained the common law as our measuring metric for judging law. The common law is derived from Christianity. This is the real measure of the claim Christian nation.

Most politicians that served in office during the lives of the framers were, by oath, claiming that they believed in the Christian religion and / or were representing a Christian base.

LIARS among us who want to deny the obvious regarding the founding / framing of our system of jurisprudence want this to be about theocracy and it is not. America was not founded as a theocracy nor was it intended to be. America was not founded by religionists; we did not want religionists to rule. At the same time, we did not want to lose our ethnic, cultural, and Christian heritage. We limited who could become a citizen and who could represent us in elective office. Our forefathers taught their children from Christian textbooks and our holidays were predicated on Christian events.

Contrary to what the LIARS want others to believe, you do not have to become a Christian to be a citizen in the de jure / lawful / constitutional country known as the United States of America. You do not have to believe in its tenets of faith; don't have to go to church; don't have to join any group; will not be required to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance. But, at the same time, if American reclaim their heritage, you will not be able to stop them from praying in public schools, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or preventing churches from adopting stances that you find offensive. You will not be able to control them with a majority vote. And, so, if there is nothing else, the basic facts are in. ALL we can accomplish here is to rehash what has already been discussed and maybe add to the mountains of evidence provided.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

23911942 reply January 22 2020

You do realize that the establishment clause as ratified restricted the federal government from establishing a national religion and did not restrict the states from establishing state religions, right? Of which half the states had at the time of ratification.


Thomas Jefferson even wrote a letter that explicitly stated that establishing a state religion is up to the states.

Do you recall writing this:

23910475

Why do I believe America was founded as a Christian nation? America was a nation founded by Christians.

And I told you that your statement is not true?

You used the word “nation” two times that America was founded as a Christian “NATION” and America was a “NATION” founded by Christians.

I don’t have much of a problem had you written Virginia was founded as a Christian State. Etc for the states that may have been. I won’t bother going through the history of each state and whether Christianity would be a legitimate founding principle of each state when most were originally established as a colony under the authority of the King if England.

But now you come around to a truthful statement that the establishment clause restricted the federal government from establishing a NATIONAL religion.

In other words our national system of government is NOT and all the original states when referred to as the United States of America were NOT founded as a Christian nation.

That I am correct is even further verified by your confirmation that half the states did not choose to establish or continue a state religion.

Thank You.