America Founded as a Christian Nation

[Bezukhov]

America Founded as a Christian Nation

Okay, so what is expected of non Christians? Should we have a monthly ritual where Christians line up, drop their pants and bend over, so all the non Christians can queue up for the privilege of kissing a Christian's ass?

 

[ding]

America Founded as a Christian Nation

Okay, so what is expected of non Christians? Should we have a monthly ritual where Christians line up, drop their pants and bend over, so all the non Christians can queue up for the privilege of kissing a Christian's ass?

Or they could just genuflect.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

Reply to 23921923 January 23 2020:

What strengthens my case that virtue cannot exist without religion is the history of every single atheistic state which has ever existed.

Not to mention it is indisputable the influence Christianity played in the success of the Republic.

One Nation Under God: Alexis de Tocqueville

You were responding to this excerpt from post 23920618

What strengthens my case is the devotion and tenacity these two ‘fathers’ and first of our presidents, ensure the republic they were creating did not have a government that was tied to any religion whatsoever.

My case is that America was not founded as a Christian nation. The point in 23920618 is strong because Madison and Jefferson used their “intellect” to ensure the separation of church and state.

However, your reply in 23921923 did not challenge my case. Instead you chose to advise me that your case that (virtue cannot exist without religion) is strong #1 based upon a universal truth that atheistic states have never produced a virtuous people. And of course #2 it is indisputable the influence Christianity played in the success of the Republic. Thanks once again for bringing Alexis de Tocqueville and his trip throughout America thirty years after the founding and after the Case Ridge religious awakening.

Nothing in your response attempts to refute my point: Madison and Jefferson used their “intellect” to ensure the separation of church and state. My accompanying point in the same post 23920618 was that good behavior of Christians was in the background not in the forefront of actually doing what Madison and Jefferson did.

I have seen no response to that

I also pointed out that many Christians of high virtue ..... “publicly vilified Jefferson as an anti-religious atheist who was unfit to hold the highest office in the land.”

But Jefferson and Madison became presidents and separation of church and state has endured. America was founded neither endorsing or rejection the practice or non-practice of religion according to every free man’s religion. America was not founded as a Christian Nation or to ever become one.

My first post on this thread acknowledged Christians involvement in the founding of America.

There were Christians involved in the founding and revolt against the King,

What’s wrong with that? Why does it have to be that America was founded as a Christian nation.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

reply to 23921884 January 23 2020

I have been quoting the founding fathers. You are trying to define the rule by exception. I am defining the rule.

https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/founding-fathers-united-states#section_10

If you are trying to say that my argument is an exception to the rule that the founding fathers were opposed to religion or were not religious that is not true.

My argument is firmly based upon the complete understanding and agreement that the founding fathers were religious themselves to varying degrees and were for most part committed to the Enlightenment idea that government must have a protective wall between it and the practice of all religion and certain matters of conscience that do no harm.

That wall of separation is not only to protect government from religion but to protect religion from government.

it is no way meant to be understood as an endorsement of a religion or a rejection of any religion in any way.

So when you post endless quotes from founding fathers expressing the need for the practice of religion In civil society it refutes nothing of my base argument that America was not founded as a Christian nation. Of course the founders saw and expressed appreciation of the value and virtue of having a well behaved society freely practicing the religion of their individual choice, It’s that they also miraculously saw the value in keeping the NATIONAL/FEDERAL government and its potential for possession of extreme power out of the people’s religion and the religion out of the people’s government as best they could.

I an American citizen, practicing no ritual of an organized religion and holding no belief in any of them, appreciate, perhaps more than most, the freedom I have to believe what my mind’ my, spirit and my soul deems virtuous, true and vital to a quality of life.I honor Jefferson and Madison for giving that to me.

I also appreciate the value and architectural and artistic beauty and beneficial power that has touched human experience as a result of the worlds great religions and the minor ones too. I respect all tolerant and good religious people.

Final point for this post is I do not regard intolerance that comes with demands such as I must accept that my country, my nation was founded as a Christian nation. I have no respect the intolerant that say I must practice a religion in order to have virtue.

My mind is fused tightly with and forever in awe of Jefferson’s great mind on matters of Christianity religion and the Biblem and freedom of religion. It’s personal with me.

 

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My case is that America was not founded as a Christian nation. The point in 23920618 is strong because Madison and Jefferson used their “intellect” to ensure the separation of church and state.

Your point is weak because the establishment clause only applied to the national government so that they could not interfere with state established religions of which half of the states had at the time of founding.

In fact you point is so weak you don’t even know that Madison tried to apply the establishment clause to the states as well but that wording of the 1st amendment draft was defeated in the senate.

It seems the intellect of Madison could not defeat the overwhelming majority of the other founding fathers.

 

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However, your reply in 23921923 did not challenge my case. Instead you chose to advise me that your case that (virtue cannot exist without religion) is strong #1 based upon a universal truth that atheistic states have never produced a virtuous people. And of course #2 it is indisputable the influence Christianity played in the success of the Republic. Thanks once again for bringing Alexis de Tocqueville and his trip throughout America thirty years after the founding and after the Case Ridge religious awakening.

But I did respond to your argument by telling you it only applied to the national government and that the states were free to establish state religions of which half the states had at the time of ratification and every single one of them was based upon Christianity.

 

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Nothing in your response attempts to refute my point: Madison and Jefferson used their “intellect” to ensure the separation of church and state. My accompanying point in the same post 23920618 was that good behavior of Christians was in the background not in the forefront of actually doing what Madison and Jefferson did.

Wrong. I showed you how both of them believed that virtue was required to maintain freedom and liberty and moved the argument to does virtue require religion and then showed you how all of the other founding fathers believed it did and then showed you how the history of militant atheists states proved that virtue requires religion.

 

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I have seen no response to that

You are lying.

 

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I also pointed out that many Christians of high virtue ..... “publicly vilified Jefferson as an anti-religious atheist who was unfit to hold the highest office in the land.”

So what? Maybe he was not worthy. He owned slaves and never said it was wrong. In fact the party he founded expanded slavery against the intentions of the founding fathers.

 

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But Jefferson and Madison became presidents and separation of church and state has endured. America was founded neither endorsing or rejection the practice or non-practice of religion according to every free man’s religion. America was not founded as a Christian Nation or to ever become one.

The other founding fathers who were elected President and believed that freedom and liberty could not be maintained without virtue and religion outnumber them. Then there is the overwhelming history of the Christian heritage that you are trying to wipe out like every other militant atheistic state has tried before you.

I think you need to face the fact that you have more in common with Lenin than Jefferson.

 

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My first post on this thread acknowledged Christians involvement in the founding of America.

No. It dismissed it. Now you are employing double speak.

 

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What’s wrong with that? Why does it have to be that America was founded as a Christian nation.

It doesn’t. That’s just what it is.

 

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If you are trying to say that my argument is an exception to the rule that the founding fathers were opposed to religion or were not religious that is not true.

No. Your exception is believing that religion is not required to maintain virtue.

Madison and Jefferson believed that virtue was required to maintain freedom and liberty.

A point you never addressed.

 

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My argument is firmly based upon the complete understanding and agreement that the founding fathers were religious themselves to varying degrees and were for most part committed to the Enlightenment idea that government must have a protective wall between it and the practice of all religion and certain matters of conscience that do no harm.

That’s all correct except the wall part.

They chose to allow states to establish state religions. And of the ones that did, they chose Christianity because America was overwhelmingly a nation of Christians.

 

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That wall of separation is not only to protect government from religion but to protect religion from government.

That too is wrong. The establishment clause was expressly written to prevent the federal government from interfering with state established religions of which half the states had at the time of ratification.

 

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it is no way meant to be understood as an endorsement of a religion or a rejection of any religion in any way.

That is correct. But the Founding Fathers never envisioned an atheistic nation.

Communism is naturalized humanism. Freedom and liberty cannot be maintained without virtue and morality and virtue and morality cannot be maintained without religion.

All one has to do to understand this is study the history of every atheistic state.

 

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So when you post endless quotes from founding fathers expressing the need for the practice of religion In civil society it refutes nothing of my base argument that America was not founded as a Christian nation. Of course the founders saw and expressed appreciation of the value and virtue of having a well behaved society freely practicing the religion of their individual choice, It’s that they also miraculously saw the value in keeping the NATIONAL/FEDERAL government and its potential for possession of extreme power out of the people’s religion and the religion out of the people’s government as best they could.

Yes, they are endless because they all believed that freedom and liberty cannot be maintained without virtue and morality. A key point that you keep ignoring.

Again, you keep misstating the intent of the establishment clause. It was written to prevent the national government from interfering with state established religions.

 

[ding]

I also appreciate the value and architectural and artistic beauty and beneficial power that has touched human experience as a result of the worlds great religions and the minor ones too. I respect all tolerant and good religious people.

Final point for this post is I do not regard intolerance that comes with demands such as I must accept that my country, my nation was founded as a Christian nation. I have no respect the intolerant that say I must practice a religion in order to have virtue.

My mind is fused tightly with and forever in awe of Jefferson’s great mind on matters of Christianity religion and the Biblem and freedom of religion. It’s personal with me.

And none of this addresses the fact that virtue and morality can be maintained without religion. A fact proven by history.

Or that America was founded by Christians and the Christian heritage was imbedded in everything they did.

 

[whutTHEYsay]

23922797

Nothing in your response attempts to refute my point: Madison and Jefferson used their “intellect” to ensure the separation of church and state. My accompanying point in the same post 23920618 was that good behavior of Christians was in the background not in the forefront of actually doing what Madison and Jefferson did.

Post 23923966 reply to 23922797:

Wrong. I showed you how both of them believed that virtue was required to maintain freedom and liberty and moved the argument to does virtue require religion and then showed you how all of the other founding fathers believed it did and then showed you how the history of militant atheists states proved that virtue requires religion.

No. You must know I am not wrong - You “moved” the argument. You say so right here.

Post 23923966 reply to 23922797:

...and moved the argument.

I am willing to move to a rebuttal to your argument about militant atheists. But there were no militant atheists having an impact on the founding of America.

So I will continue to wait for your response to my point about the critical importance of Madison and Jefferson’s intellect vs the importance of virtue established by Christian religiosity in the common folk had in founding our great nation.

23922797

My accompanying point in the same post 23920618 was that good behavior of Christians was in the background not in the forefront of actually doing what Madison and Jefferson did.

So where is your reply to my accompanying point in (23922797)? Do you think religious virtue present in common Christian Church-going believers would have produced the founding of America on its own without the education and intellect of Adams Jefferson and Madison being there to drive America into existence?

 

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No. You must know I am not wrong - You “moved” the argument. You say so right here.

Wrong. You didn’t understand the argument.