Allen West is a disgrace.

[digger]

Then respect the service of LTC West. He made a mistake, he paid for it. There is no disgrace. But you of course hate him because he might be a small threat to the Obama....

Yeah, we understand....

You and your DEGENERATE RW ilk DISRESPECTED a TRUE hero...one who won meddles.

You and your DEGENERATE RW ilk saw fit to SWIFTBOAT a real American patroit.

And for what...for Partisan bullshat...

Go blow it out your A$$!!

"meddles"...Hey genius....those are "Medals"...
Oh and why is it Dan Rather (biased) was FIRED from CBS?.....Was it because.....Oh that's right he falsified a news report or two about a sitting president's military record. Oh, but that's ok, right markie?
What is a "patroit"? Are you a product of those fine Atlanta Public Schools?

Yeah, that's right. he was fired. In disgrace. And good luck finding someone to defend him. That's what happens when people get caught lying in a legitimate news organization. Not even clear that he lied, if I understand correctly. May have done sloppy fact checking and said something false that he actually believed. But that's no excuse for a newsman. He's gone.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Please this slowly...then explain what an article 128 is. Jester, please focus on this for a second. What exactly is an article 128? Then get into article 134. You had the nerve to call me a poseur? Poseur, Allen West is a disgrace.

While serving in Taji, Iraq, West received information from an intelligence specialist about a reported plot to ambush him and his men.[11] The alleged plot reportedly involved Yahya Jhodri Hamoodi, a civilian Iraqi police officer.[11] At first, West thought the reports were a joke...until a week later when several of his officers were ambushed when he was supposed to be traveling with them. At that point, Colonel West began taking the risk of a planned assassination attempt seriously. [11] West, who was not responsible for conducting interrogations in Iraq and had never conducted or witnessed one, had his men detain Hamoodi.[11] In the process of detaining Mr. Hamoodi, soldiers testified that Mr. Hamoodi appeared to go for his weapon and needed to be subdued.[11] Hamoodi was beaten by four of his soldiers from the 220th Field Artillery Battalion on the head and body.[12] West then fired his pistol near Hamoodi's head.[11] Hamoodi then provided West with names and information, what Hamoodi later described as "meaningless information induced by fear and pain."[11] At least one suspect was arrested as a result, but no plans for attacks or weapons were found.[11] West said "At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi."[11]

West was charged with violating articles 128 (assault) and 134 (general article) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. During a hearing held as part of an Article 32 investigation in November 2003, West stated, "I know the method I used was not right, but I wanted to take care of my soldiers."[citation needed] The charges were ultimately referred to an Article 15 proceeding rather than court-martial, at which West was fined $5,000.[11] LTC West accepted the judgment and retired with full benefits in the summer of 2004. Asked if he would have act differently if under similar circumstances again, West testified, "If it's about the lives of my soldiers at stake, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can."[13] After Colonel West was relieved of his command, an interpreter said that without his presence the region he previously oversaw became more dangerous and chaotic.[11]




(I am talking to military people for a minute here) there are rules and the ucmj is there for a reason. True?You violate it, you can get kicked out. Righty Mr. West? Civilians dont seem to get this. There are are reasons why you do missions you are responsible for. When you cross the line, you are in violation of the UCMJ. Righty Jester? This disgraced idiot was never responsible for that interrogation. That is why he was busted and in my opinion, they should not have given him a choice and they should have put him behind bars for 10 years.

HE IS A DISGRACE. I know a lot of civilians will say so what, but the military has rules and this "officer" broke them. There are ways to complete mission while following the damn rules. I am going with the army and not some arm chair guy who says "so what"..he committed assult and I agree with the Army. He should have and did have to retire.

God bless America.

Jester, prove me wrong. This will be the hardest thing you have ever done but, If you dont like the link, prove me wrong with a different one that says he did't commit assult. You know, article 128 and dont forget article 134.


Allen West (politician) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

article 128
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated, is guilty of assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) commits an assault with a dangerous weapon or other means or force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm; or

(2) commits an assault and intentionally inflicts grievous bodily harm with or without a weapon;

is guilty of aggravated assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

artical 15
An Article 15 is "nonjudicial punishment." It's often called "Mast" in the Navy and Marine Corps.
It's kind of a "mini-trial" conducted by the commander if someone commits a punitive offense under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), and the commander feels the offense is too minor to warrant a full-blown court-martial.

It's best to think of it as a misdemeanor court, vs. a felony court (which would be more indicative of a court-martial).

Seems the Army disagrees with your judgement that he's a disgrace. Since they know more of the details, I'll go with what they have to say.

 

[Wicked Jester]

One more time Marc, that "interrogation" does not meet my definition of "torture". IF you had ever been in combat against an insurgent force that does not play by ANY rules, you might have a slightly different take on the matter. Then again, If you had ever been in combat, you might just have a clearer understanding of what leadership is, in that situation. It's a hell of a lot easier to critique decisions, when you've never had to make them.

You hate the man's politics; fine, that's your right; condemning what you don't know is not. I think you know I try to be fair; I've stood up for your opinions on other threads, when I believed you were right. This time, I believe you are wrong.

I don't get it. What is not torture about kidnapping, blindfolding, beating, and threatening to kill someone? If that is not torture, than what is?

According to the Geneva Convention, this is what torture is.

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture[1]

So um, yeah. There ya go.

Yeah, and unless we go to war with the Brits again, good luck finding us an enemy who pays any attention whatsoever to the GC, whether we do, or not. Tell you what, ask any of the men who were in the Hanoi Hilton how much good the GC did them. Personally, I'd like to tear the damn thing up, and fight under the black flag-no quarter, asked or given! Let me put it this way; in Vietnam, it was a good idea to save one bullet, or your last grenade, for yourself; surrendering to the VC was not an option. You are invited to wonder, how we treated them, as a result, or if I give a rat's ass!

A .22 in the boot is what I carried incogneto.......Know way in hell was my family going to witness my beheading live on the internet, by a bunch of crazy, sadistic, goat herding pieces o' shit.

Nor were they going to witness my tortured body being dragged through the streets, being desecrated, and then set on fire and hung from a bridge.

There's a couple o' lefty's in this thread who would probably jack off to such sights. As long as it's an american, and not the enemy, it's a good thing!

 

[digger]

It doesn't sound like you're saying it's not torture anymore. It sounds like you're saying that torture is justified because we need to sink to the level of the sociopaths we're fighting against. Even if that means torturing people who may or may not be terrorists.

Is that what you're saying? You agree that it's torture. But you believe it's justified.

If you think it's justified, how do you explain the uselessness of the torture? West was never trained in interrogation. He had never witnessed an interrogation. The information he got led to no weapons or plans being discovered.

THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ: INTERROGATIONS; How Colonel Risked His Career By Menacing Detainee and Lost - Page 6 - New York Times

Colonel West testified that he did not know whether ''any corroboration'' of a plot was ever found, adding: ''At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi.''

Nobody was tortured. Stop your lying, lil' man!

I disagree with you, so I'm a liar. You won't look at my evidence, and you won't present any of your own. You're not worth talking to except to explain to others how full of shit you are.

 

[The Gadfly]

It doesn't sound like you're saying it's not torture anymore. It sounds like you're saying that torture is justified because we need to sink to the level of the sociopaths we're fighting against. Even if that means torturing people who may or may not be terrorists.

Is that what you're saying? You agree that it's torture. But you believe it's justified.

I don't think that these far RW Palookas know WHAT the heck they're saying...the just REACT, LASH OUT and CLUTCH at ANYTHING they think will be beneficial to them....at that very moment. Nothing they said or did before matters, nothing they will say or do afterwards matters either.

Like wilderbeast...now for now. That's what they know. That's all they know.

Sad.

I'm saying, that you deal with the enemy in a manner he understands,and if necessary fears. The purpose of war (or at least it used to be, is to kill and demoralize the enemy, until he gives up. How that is done, is a matter of complete indifference to me. You may not like it, but what we did in Vietnam sure worked on the battlefield; we won, and then you gutless liberal pussies stole our victory (along with everything else we fought for), and spat on us for good measure! God, how I detest your whole, sorry species! Sometimes I wish we could have been brought home and let loose on the treasonous hippie scum marching in the streets; the country would have been better off today!

 

[Wicked Jester]

It doesn't sound like you're saying it's not torture anymore. It sounds like you're saying that torture is justified because we need to sink to the level of the sociopaths we're fighting against. Even if that means torturing people who may or may not be terrorists.

Is that what you're saying? You agree that it's torture. But you believe it's justified.

If you think it's justified, how do you explain the uselessness of the torture? West was never trained in interrogation. He had never witnessed an interrogation. The information he got led to no weapons or plans being discovered.

THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ: INTERROGATIONS; How Colonel Risked His Career By Menacing Detainee and Lost - Page 6 - New York Times

Colonel West testified that he did not know whether ''any corroboration'' of a plot was ever found, adding: ''At the time I had to base my decision on the intelligence I received. It's possible that I was wrong about Mr. Hamoodi.''

Nobody was tortured. Stop your lying, lil' man!

I disagree with you, so I'm a liar. You won't look at my evidence, and you won't present any of your own. You're not worth talking to except to explain to others how full of shit you are.

I don't have to look at your evidence, race baiter.

The Army says no one was tortured, he was never charged with torture. Therefore, like Zona, you are blatantly lying.

Quit acting like a typical left wing partisan hack.....Either show the evidence of torture, too include a conviction for torture, or simply shut the **** up!

 

[digger]

^The army never says anything that's not true. No one ever gets convicted of a crime that is less severe than the crime they actually committed. Clearly it makes more sense to parrot whatever the army says than to find the evidence of what actually occurred.

 

[digger]

It doesn't sound like you're saying it's not torture anymore. It sounds like you're saying that torture is justified because we need to sink to the level of the sociopaths we're fighting against. Even if that means torturing people who may or may not be terrorists.

Is that what you're saying? You agree that it's torture. But you believe it's justified.

I don't think that these far RW Palookas know WHAT the heck they're saying...the just REACT, LASH OUT and CLUTCH at ANYTHING they think will be beneficial to them....at that very moment. Nothing they said or did before matters, nothing they will say or do afterwards matters either.

Like wilderbeast...now for now. That's what they know. That's all they know.

Sad.

I'm saying, that you deal with the enemy in a manner he understands,and if necessary fears. The purpose of war (or at least it used to be, is to kill and demoralize the enemy, until he gives up. How that is done, is a matter of complete indifference to me. You may not like it, but what we did in Vietnam sure worked on the battlefield; we won, and then you gutless liberal pussies stole our victory (along with everything else we fought for), and spat on us for good measure! God, how I detest your whole, sorry species! Sometimes I wish we could have been brought home and let loose on the treasonous hippie scum marching in the streets; the country would have been better off today!

Mmmhmmm. Don't hold back. Tell me how much you treasure those freedoms you were fighting for. As long as it's freedom to express views you agree with, of course.

Is there any evidence that Hamoodi was actually "the enemy"? No. He was an Iraqi policeman detained on a rumor. No corroboration was found for the information he gave, which speaks to the likelihood that he was making up anything he could think of to stop the torture. After being tortured, he was detained for a couple weeks, and let go.

But you're dodging the question. Was it, or was it not, torture? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

 

[The Gadfly]

I don't think that these far RW Palookas know WHAT the heck they're saying...the just REACT, LASH OUT and CLUTCH at ANYTHING they think will be beneficial to them....at that very moment. Nothing they said or did before matters, nothing they will say or do afterwards matters either.

Like wilderbeast...now for now. That's what they know. That's all they know.

Sad.

I'm saying, that you deal with the enemy in a manner he understands,and if necessary fears. The purpose of war (or at least it used to be, is to kill and demoralize the enemy, until he gives up. How that is done, is a matter of complete indifference to me. You may not like it, but what we did in Vietnam sure worked on the battlefield; we won, and then you gutless liberal pussies stole our victory (along with everything else we fought for), and spat on us for good measure! God, how I detest your whole, sorry species! Sometimes I wish we could have been brought home and let loose on the treasonous hippie scum marching in the streets; the country would have been better off today!

Mmmhmmm. Don't hold back. Tell me how much you treasure those freedoms you were fighting for. As long as it's freedom to express views you agree with, of course.

Is there any evidence that Hamoodi was actually "the enemy"? No. He was an Iraqi policeman detained on a rumor. No corroboration was found for the information he gave, which speaks to the likelihood that he was making up anything he could think of to stop the torture. After being tortured, he was detained for a couple weeks, and let go.

But you're dodging the question. Was it, or was it not, torture? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Tell you what; you go serve your country, get shot at, watch your buddies die, and come home and let me wave the enemy flag in YOUR face, and spit on YOU, and we'll see what you think of MY right to do THAT! So much for the "empathy" of the "gentle, kind, peaceful Left"! Try walking a click in my boots, before you get so damn sanctimonious! Damn right, I hate the people who did that; try to convince yourself you would feel otherwise.

As to your question, no, that's not torture; that's nothing more than slapping someone around, and scaring him. You want a description of what I consider "torture" look at any graphic description of t what the VC and NVA did. We sure as hell didn't go nearly as far as they did. Go get shot at every day, see enemy atrocities every day, and then prattle about the damn Geneva Convention (which is not worth the paper it's written on). That's not an original thought; ask any man who fought on Iwo or Okinawa what "rules" they followed when dealing with Japanese prisoners (when they took any). That damn sure worked too!

 

[Wicked Jester]

I'm saying, that you deal with the enemy in a manner he understands,and if necessary fears. The purpose of war (or at least it used to be, is to kill and demoralize the enemy, until he gives up. How that is done, is a matter of complete indifference to me. You may not like it, but what we did in Vietnam sure worked on the battlefield; we won, and then you gutless liberal pussies stole our victory (along with everything else we fought for), and spat on us for good measure! God, how I detest your whole, sorry species! Sometimes I wish we could have been brought home and let loose on the treasonous hippie scum marching in the streets; the country would have been better off today!

Mmmhmmm. Don't hold back. Tell me how much you treasure those freedoms you were fighting for. As long as it's freedom to express views you agree with, of course.

Is there any evidence that Hamoodi was actually "the enemy"? No. He was an Iraqi policeman detained on a rumor. No corroboration was found for the information he gave, which speaks to the likelihood that he was making up anything he could think of to stop the torture. After being tortured, he was detained for a couple weeks, and let go.

But you're dodging the question. Was it, or was it not, torture? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Tell you what; you go serve your country, get shot at, watch your buddies die, and come home and let me wave the enemy flag in YOUR face, and spit on YOU, and we'll see what you think of MY right to do THAT! So much for the "empathy" of the "gentle, kind, peaceful Left"! Try walking a click in my boots, before you get so damn sanctimonious! Damn right, I hate the people who did that; try to convince yourself you would feel otherwise.

As to your question, no, that's not torture; that's nothing more than slapping someone around, and scaring him. You want a description of what I consider "torture" look at any graphic description of t what the VC and NVA did. We sure as hell didn't go nearly as far as they did. Go get shot at every day, see enemy atrocities every day, and then prattle about the damn Geneva Convention (which is not worth the paper it's written on). That's not an original thought; ask any man who fought on Iwo or Okinawa what "rules" they followed when dealing with Japanese prisoners (when they took any). That damn sure worked too!

The way the left treated our troops (aided by Kerry's backstabbing, subversive ways) after they returned from S.E. Asia was disgusting.

I only experienced a minor incident at SeaTac Airport returning from Iraq. Some drunk code pinker type running off at the mouth. I just laughed and went on my way. The other passengers got in her face and basically told her to STFU......It was nothing like you vietnam vets went through.

Fuckin' lefty scumbag pieces o' shit!

 

[digger]

Did you guys plan that? You work together like a well oiled machine. Now we're talking about Vietnam. We get it, we get it. You hate liberals. Go tell someone who cares.

Now answer my question. Was it torture or not? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Not you, Jester. We all already know what you think, and I don't need to hear you tell me that you think I'm lying again. That merry-go-round is loosing its novelty. I'm asking Gadfly. He expressed an opinion, but seems to have swayed. I want clarification.

 

[The Gadfly]

Did you guys plan that? You work together like a well oiled machine. Now we're talking about Vietnam. We get it, we get it. You hate liberals. Go tell someone who cares.

Now answer my question. Was it torture or not? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Not you, Jester. We all already know what you think, and I don't need to hear you tell me that you think I'm lying again. That merry-go-round is loosing its novelty. I'm asking Gadfly. He expressed an opinion, but seems to have swayed. I want clarification.

It wasn't prolonged, no serious physical harm was done (which is why waterboarding is not torture; it's uncomfortable, but definitely will not kill you (I've experienced it). Compare and contrast with VC methods that killed the victim, or left them with lasting physical disabilities. Isolation, sleep deprivation, and similar methods are not torture. Does that help spell it out for you. I don't know why I bother; educating a liberal is an exercise in futility anyway; I'd rather have no heart, than no brain! Go take your sympathy for the enemy elsewhere, I'm fresh out of compassion for them! By the way, where's the answer to my other question? What idf the you were in my boots? Would you have felt like I did, or not? See if you can manage that much honesty.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Did you guys plan that? You work together like a well oiled machine. Now we're talking about Vietnam. We get it, we get it. You hate liberals. Go tell someone who cares.

Now answer my question. Was it torture or not? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Not you, Jester. We all already know what you think, and I don't need to hear you tell me that you think I'm lying again. That merry-go-round is loosing its novelty. I'm asking Gadfly. He expressed an opinion, but seems to have swayed. I want clarification.

No, I don't hate liberals. I loathe far left whackjobs who make claims they can't support. Who race bait. Who talk shit about service members, would never themselves serve, and then call some subversive piece o' shit like John Kerry a hero.


But like I said, I don't hate liberals. I loathe far left whackjobs.

Liberals can't help themselves, it's a mental disorder.

 

[digger]

Did you guys plan that? You work together like a well oiled machine. Now we're talking about Vietnam. We get it, we get it. You hate liberals. Go tell someone who cares.

Now answer my question. Was it torture or not? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Not you, Jester. We all already know what you think, and I don't need to hear you tell me that you think I'm lying again. That merry-go-round is loosing its novelty. I'm asking Gadfly. He expressed an opinion, but seems to have swayed. I want clarification.

It wasn't prolonged, no serious physical harm was done (which is why waterboarding is not torture; it's uncomfortable, but definitely will not kill you (I've experienced it). Compare and contrast with VC methods that killed the victim, or left them with lasting physical disabilities. Isolation, sleep deprivation, and similar methods are not torture. Does that help spell it out for you. I don't know why I bother; educating a liberal is an exercise in futility anyway; I'd rather have no heart, than no brain! Go take your sympathy for the enemy elsewhere, I'm fresh out of compassion for them! By the way, where's the answer to my other question? What idf the you were in my boots? Would you have felt like I did, or not? See if you can manage that much honesty.

OK, just wanted to be clear. You seem to take the same view of torture as the Bush administration. I'd like to point out that none of the added elements you listed are mentioned in any definition of torture I have seen. And several of the techniques you describe, many people who prosecute this sort of thing explicitly call torture. The Bush administration simply changed the meaning of the word. This is why he is not able to visit various countries... because they would arrest him for war crimes.

That's about a far as we're gonna come on this subject. I don't think our minds are going to come any closer on it. Can you at least accept that many people do consider his actions torture? And that those people are right under any definition except Bush's?

Manage that must honesty? What have I ever said to make you think I'm dishonest?

It's not even nearly on topic, but I'll bite. How would I have felt if I were in your boots? I dunno. It's hard for me to picture myself in your boots. I probably would have dodged the draft. I don't see what good I could have done there, besides get myself killed and maybe take a few strangers with me. Even if I had single handedly won the war, so what? The world would be much the same today either way.

But that's not really doing your question justice. Let's imagine a different war. I'll really put myself in your shoes, and imagine that there's a war I think is worth fighting. And that a huge chunk of the population thought it wasn't, and was very disrespectful about telling me so.

Well, yeah, I'd feel hurt. That's not what I need. I'm probably traumatized from killing people and watching other people die. Maybe I shot some kid by accident, and I'm real torn up about it. So having that guy call me a baby killer and spit in my face hurts.

But y'know what I'd be really pissed off about? I'd be really pissed off that the country I served abandoned me. I'd be really pissed off that Reagan kicked me out of the mental hospital and onto the street. I'd be a broken shell of a man. Drinking my meals and vomiting up real food.

You should know that I've known several homeless Vietnam vets. I've done my best to feed them, make sure they're warm and safe. There's not much individuals can do. Or even small groups that I worked with. But we can do our part.

In your place, I might even find myself 40 years later, yelling at a 30-year-old who's being perfectly respectful as if he had personally spit in my face.

 

[digger]

I have a strange feeling that you're about to tell me that since I never served in the military, I don't have the right to criticize soldiers, because I've never been in their place. There may be something to that. But what about the soldiers who criticize soldiers? You call them back stabbers. So who is allowed to criticize a soldier?

 

[Wicked Jester]

Did you guys plan that? You work together like a well oiled machine. Now we're talking about Vietnam. We get it, we get it. You hate liberals. Go tell someone who cares.

Now answer my question. Was it torture or not? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Not you, Jester. We all already know what you think, and I don't need to hear you tell me that you think I'm lying again. That merry-go-round is loosing its novelty. I'm asking Gadfly. He expressed an opinion, but seems to have swayed. I want clarification.

It wasn't prolonged, no serious physical harm was done (which is why waterboarding is not torture; it's uncomfortable, but definitely will not kill you (I've experienced it). Compare and contrast with VC methods that killed the victim, or left them with lasting physical disabilities. Isolation, sleep deprivation, and similar methods are not torture. Does that help spell it out for you. I don't know why I bother; educating a liberal is an exercise in futility anyway; I'd rather have no heart, than no brain! Go take your sympathy for the enemy elsewhere, I'm fresh out of compassion for them! By the way, where's the answer to my other question? What idf the you were in my boots? Would you have felt like I did, or not? See if you can manage that much honesty.

OK, just wanted to be clear. You seem to take the same view of torture as the Bush administration. I'd like to point out that none of the added elements you listed are mentioned in any definition of torture I have seen. And several of the techniques you describe, many people who prosecute this sort of thing explicitly call torture. The Bush administration simply changed the meaning of the word. This is why he is not able to visit various countries... because they would arrest him for war crimes.

That's about a far as we're gonna come on this subject. I don't think our minds are going to come any closer on it. Can you at least accept that many people do consider his actions torture? And that those people are right under any definition except Bush's?

Manage that must honesty? What have I ever said to make you think I'm dishonest?

It's not even nearly on topic, but I'll bite. How would I have felt if I were in your boots? I dunno. It's hard for me to picture myself in your boots. I probably would have dodged the draft. I don't see what good I could have done there, besides get myself killed and maybe take a few strangers with me. Even if I had single handedly won the war, so what? The world would be much the same today either way.

But that's not really doing your question justice. Let's imagine a different war. I'll really put myself in your shoes, and imagine that there's a war I think is worth fighting. And that a huge chunk of the population thought it wasn't, and was very disrespectful about telling me so.

Well, yeah, I'd feel hurt. That's not what I need. I'm probably traumatized from killing people and watching other people die. Maybe I shot some kid by accident, and I'm real torn up about it. So having that guy call me a baby killer and spit in my face hurts.

But y'know what I'd be really pissed off about? I'd be really pissed off that the country I served abandoned me. I'd be really pissed off that Reagan kicked me out of the mental hospital and onto the street. I'd be a broken shell of a man. Drinking my meals and vomiting up real food.

You should know that I've known several homeless Vietnam vets. I've done my best to feed them, make sure they're warm and safe. There's not much individuals can do. Or even small groups that I worked with. But we can do our part.

In your place, I might even find myself 40 years later, yelling at a 30-year-old who's being perfectly respectful as if he had personally spit in my face.

You are a serious fuckin' whackjob, who does not deal in facts......It's all far left wing drivel, put out by anti-american pieces of shit who loathe this great country to the core. It's like you're reading from their script.

Do us all a favor, and just get the **** out of this great country.....You obviously hate it, would never stand up and fight for it under any circumstances so, what's the point of even living in it?.......You appear to be a very unhappy, self loathing, lonely human being who has been spoonfed asinine drivel for quite some time.

Seriously, I have never heard such whiney fuckin' far left wing asinine drivel before your sorry lil' ass came along....I mean, we've got some serious whackjobs up here. From The troofers, to the pinkers, to the Hamas lovers, to the anti-semites, to the jihadi's etc., but you are far and away the weirdest lil' whackjob to appear in quite some time.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Did you guys plan that? You work together like a well oiled machine. Now we're talking about Vietnam. We get it, we get it. You hate liberals. Go tell someone who cares.

Now answer my question. Was it torture or not? If not, what elements of torture were missing?

Not you, Jester. We all already know what you think, and I don't need to hear you tell me that you think I'm lying again. That merry-go-round is loosing its novelty. I'm asking Gadfly. He expressed an opinion, but seems to have swayed. I want clarification.

It wasn't prolonged, no serious physical harm was done (which is why waterboarding is not torture; it's uncomfortable, but definitely will not kill you (I've experienced it). Compare and contrast with VC methods that killed the victim, or left them with lasting physical disabilities. Isolation, sleep deprivation, and similar methods are not torture. Does that help spell it out for you. I don't know why I bother; educating a liberal is an exercise in futility anyway; I'd rather have no heart, than no brain! Go take your sympathy for the enemy elsewhere, I'm fresh out of compassion for them! By the way, where's the answer to my other question? What idf the you were in my boots? Would you have felt like I did, or not? See if you can manage that much honesty.

OK, just wanted to be clear. You seem to take the same view of torture as the Bush administration. I'd like to point out that none of the added elements you listed are mentioned in any definition of torture I have seen. And several of the techniques you describe, many people who prosecute this sort of thing explicitly call torture. The Bush administration simply changed the meaning of the word. This is why he is not able to visit various countries... because they would arrest him for war crimes.

That's about a far as we're gonna come on this subject. I don't think our minds are going to come any closer on it. Can you at least accept that many people do consider his actions torture? And that those people are right under any definition except Bush's?

Manage that must honesty? What have I ever said to make you think I'm dishonest?

It's not even nearly on topic, but I'll bite. How would I have felt if I were in your boots? I dunno. It's hard for me to picture myself in your boots. I probably would have dodged the draft. I don't see what good I could have done there, besides get myself killed and maybe take a few strangers with me. Even if I had single handedly won the war, so what? The world would be much the same today either way.

But that's not really doing your question justice. Let's imagine a different war. I'll really put myself in your shoes, and imagine that there's a war I think is worth fighting. And that a huge chunk of the population thought it wasn't, and was very disrespectful about telling me so.

Well, yeah, I'd feel hurt. That's not what I need. I'm probably traumatized from killing people and watching other people die. Maybe I shot some kid by accident, and I'm real torn up about it. So having that guy call me a baby killer and spit in my face hurts.

But y'know what I'd be really pissed off about? I'd be really pissed off that the country I served abandoned me. I'd be really pissed off that Reagan kicked me out of the mental hospital and onto the street. I'd be a broken shell of a man. Drinking my meals and vomiting up real food.

You should know that I've known several homeless Vietnam vets. I've done my best to feed them, make sure they're warm and safe. There's not much individuals can do. Or even small groups that I worked with. But we can do our part.

In your place, I might even find myself 40 years later, yelling at a 30-year-old who's being perfectly respectful as if he had personally spit in my face.

Reagan kicked the mental patients out onto the street?

Do you even have a clue as to what really happened, and the fact that it was Carter and the dem's who got the ball rolling?

Seriously, just stop your fuckin' lying, and twisting of the truths.

And why in the **** would you bring up killing some kid by accident, you ******* insulting lil' douchebag?

 

[digger]

Let's imagine a different war. I'll really put myself in your shoes, and imagine that there's a war I think is worth fighting.

You obviously hate it [America], would never stand up and fight for it under any circumstances so,

Gotta start off by showing how full of shit you are. You did that yourself. I just had to cut away the rest.

Now listen here war monger. I'm gonna take you to school. You think there's something magical about war? That it's somehow a liberty generating machine? You're wrong. Wars that create liberty are few and far between. War is hell. It's a stupid thing to do, and should be avoided unless there's a really damn good reason.

Now let me tell you about your leaders. Your leaders tell you that you're a hero. They tell you that you're loved and respected and that your country will always honor your sacrifice. And you believe them. They don't give a **** about you. You're expendable. Only as valuable as you are hard to replace. They don't really care if you make it home alive or not, except as it concerns their political fall out. But if you do happen to make it home, broken but alive, don't count on their help. Gulf War Syndrome? What's that? Over a decade later, once you're bankrupt from medical bills, someone will shame them into recognizing it. And then they'll pinch every penny they can find when it comes to treating you.

They told you you were fighting for freedom. Truth, justice, and the American way. And you believed them. Where is the freedom? Is the graveyard that you left behind free? Tell me, what are your enemies fighting for? Did the Vietnamese think they were fighting for their slavery? Or were they fighting for life and liberty too? If Iraq occupied us, how long would you fight? Wars for freedom are far between. Your leaders will send you to war for their own benefit. Halliburton gets fat off of no bid contracts and the weapons manufacturers give their lobbyists some fresh cash and the oil companies are salivating.

So don't call me a coward. I'm just not a fool. I'll fight if there's something worth fighting for. But I'm not going to lock step into a brain dead mob marching off to enrich the war profiteers.

 

[digger]

^^ OK, fine. Carter kicked them out into the street. And then we left them there for 30 years, while I slowly watched them die of alcoholism and exposure, incapable of doing anything but providing a hot meal and a blanket. Does it make you feel better when a Dem president does it?

 

[MarcATL]

Gotta start off by showing how full of shit you are. You did that yourself. I just had to cut away the rest.

Now listen here war monger. I'm gonna take you to school. You think there's something magical about war? That it's somehow a liberty generating machine? You're wrong. Wars that create liberty are few and far between. War is hell. It's a stupid thing to do, and should be avoided unless there's a really damn good reason.

Now let me tell you about your leaders. Your leaders tell you that you're a hero. They tell you that you're loved and respected and that your country will always honor your sacrifice. And you believe them. They don't give a **** about you. You're expendable. Only as valuable as you are hard to replace. They don't really care if you make it home alive or not, except as it concerns their political fall out. But if you do happen to make it home, broken but alive, don't count on their help. Gulf War Syndrome? What's that? Over a decade later, once you're bankrupt from medical bills, someone will shame them into recognizing it. And then they'll pinch every penny they can find when it comes to treating you.

They told you you were fighting for freedom. Truth, justice, and the American way. And you believed them. Where is the freedom? Is the graveyard that you left behind free? Tell me, what are your enemies fighting for? Did the Vietnamese think they were fighting for their slavery? Or were they fighting for life and liberty too? If Iraq occupied us, how long would you fight? Wars for freedom are far between. Your leaders will send you to war for their own benefit. Halliburton gets fat off of no bid contracts and the weapons manufacturers give their lobbyists some fresh cash and the oil companies are salivating.

So don't call me a coward. I'm just not a fool. I'll fight if there's something worth fighting for. But I'm not going to lock step into a brain dead mob marching off to enrich the war profiteers.

Powerful!!!