Allen West is a disgrace.

[pinqy]

Precisely! One rule of thumb to keep in mind here; the more any ROE defy common sense, and/or are ridiculously impracticable, the more likely it is that said ROE will be violated.

As far as I can tell, though, LTC West didn't violate any ROE, except perhaps the arrest. Interrogation rules are not part of ROE, nor is treatment of prisoners.

 

[Wicked Jester]

An Article 15 would never say someone was forced to retire. Are you trying to claim it would?

Facts: An Article 15 is a career killer for an O-5.
Relieved of command for cause is a career killer for any officer.

LTC West would never have made Colonel if he had stayed in, certainly never put on a star.

So, faced with a career that will not advance, he retired as soon as possible.

How again is that a free choice and not essentially being force out?

No, Zona and a couple of others are trying to claim that it would......Don't twist my words, I don't play that shit.

I received an article 15 at Ft. Wainwright Alaska for three weed seeds on my baracks room floor as a young PFC, that were sniffed out by a loadie dog.....Received a fine of half months pay, and 45 days extra duty cleaning offices at Battalion HQ. I was allowed to maintain my rank for the simple fact that I was honest, and didn't try to lie my way out of it....It had no effect on attending any advancement schools like RANGER, NCO, ETC., nor did it hinder making further rank.

Are you drunk? Oh and if they found weed residue in your possession, and you were not kicked out, I have to ask you..how long ago did this happen? I know they immediately gave you a urinalysis test. How did you do? You got into ranger school with a drug hit on your record? Really? Damn. When your record came up on a board for advancement, and they saw you (as a kid) had a drug hit on your record, this didnt have any affect on their decision when they were considering you for advancement to E-7 or above? REally? They are sitting at an advancement board and you have a drug hit, and they advanced you? I have 20 years in and I have never heard of such a thing. AGain, I have to ask, what year was this? I retired in 04, so maybe this was way way before my time.

ed.

I just spoke with a buddy who Just retired...He is/was a NCCS (Navy) and he said this about your situation...

Ya... drug bust then special forces seems a little weird..... but hey... we've been at war for several years now... with some of those guys on their 7th or 8th tour... wouldn't be surprised at the leniency when it comes to programs and retention... but it does seem a bit weird.


He is under the impression this just happened to you. I am thinking this happened years ago (you attempting to get into the rangers). Could you clear this up please?

1981........I fully passed the urinalysis, which was given an hour after the seeds were found. There was no evidence that I actually used, only evidence of 3 seeds....It could not be determined that I was a user, only that at some time there was weed in my room.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Who said anything about an article 15 following one into a civilian life? I said he was guilty of assult, lost his command and was charged 5k on his way out the door. West went out in disgrace. Any military officer or senior enlisted member will tell you if you lose your command, you are disgraced.

What the hell are you talking about?

He has an honorable discharge hanging.
Sorry if MSNBC has you brainwashed otherwise.
I can't cure stupid.

Yes, I know he went out with an honorable forced discharge...but here is the ting. Ask any military person if a officer is made..forced to give up his command and then forced to retire and be fined 5k, if that officer is disgraced. Honorable discharge or not.

If you dont mention names and just those facts, see what they say.

You keep claiming it was forced discharge, but can come up with one shred of evidence, too include anything from his commanding general that it was a forced discharge.......A forced discharge, I would think, would come under chapter, like chapter 13, where it would have fallen under a ''General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions"

Either put up the evidence, or simply stop claiming it......It's really that simple.

 

[pinqy]

You keep claiming it was forced discharge, but can come up with one shred of evidence, too include anything from his commanding general that it was a forced discharge.......A forced discharge, I would think, would come under chapter, like chapter 13, where it would have fallen under a ''General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions"

Either put up the evidence, or simply stop claiming it......It's really that simple.

Was it technically a forced discharge? No, of course not. Was it in effect a forced discharge? I'd say yes. Relieved for cause and an Article 15 for assault kills the career of an O-5. He would not receive another command for a long time, if ever, and would have no chance of promotion until after 1 or 2 successful commands and slim chance afterwards. An E-3 can get forgiveness for a minor drug charge (especially in 1981 when the Army was very busy dealing with serious drug problems), but it's completely different with a field grade officer.

His career was effectively over and retirement as soon as possible was in all ways preferable to trying to continue service. So literally forced out? No. Left with no better options than retirement? Yes.

 

[Wicked Jester]

You keep claiming it was forced discharge, but can come up with one shred of evidence, too include anything from his commanding general that it was a forced discharge.......A forced discharge, I would think, would come under chapter, like chapter 13, where it would have fallen under a ''General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions"

Either put up the evidence, or simply stop claiming it......It's really that simple.

Was it technically a forced discharge? No, of course not. Was it in effect a forced discharge? I'd say yes. Relieved for cause and an Article 15 for assault kills the career of an O-5. He would not receive another command for a long time, if ever, and would have no chance of promotion until after 1 or 2 successful commands and slim chance afterwards. An E-3 can get forgiveness for a minor drug charge (especially in 1981 when the Army was very busy dealing with serious drug problems), but it's completely different with a field grade officer.

His career was effectively over and retirement as soon as possible was in all ways preferable to trying to continue service. So literally forced out? No. Left with no better options than retirement? Yes.

Back in '81, if they gigged everybody for future advancement for minor weed infractions, there would not have been much of a military..........I tested clean, therefore there was no evidence of actual use. I was allowed to speak to JAG before going before our Battalion CO. He reccomended just admitting to the seeds on the floor. It was in no way an admission of use, and the clean test provided no evidence of use. I asked if it would effect future promotions or opportunities, and he stated no. All other factors of my service would negate the minor charge. Too include the amount of money the ARMY had already spent on my training to that point, I.E, Basic, Infantry, Airborne, etc........Had I tested positive, I would have most likely been sent to drug diversion. After completion of dd, it would have most likely not affected any future promotions or advancements either.

On the point of West, he wasn't forced to retire. He could have elected to stay in and resume his career. Whether any future advacemants would be warranted, would be up to high command.......So, Zona's repeated assertions that he was forced to retire is completely bogus.

 

[High_Gravity]

No, Zona and a couple of others are trying to claim that it would......Don't twist my words, I don't play that shit.

I received an article 15 at Ft. Wainwright Alaska for three weed seeds on my baracks room floor as a young PFC, that were sniffed out by a loadie dog.....Received a fine of half months pay, and 45 days extra duty cleaning offices at Battalion HQ. I was allowed to maintain my rank for the simple fact that I was honest, and didn't try to lie my way out of it....It had no effect on attending any advancement schools like RANGER, NCO, ETC., nor did it hinder making further rank.

Are you drunk? Oh and if they found weed residue in your possession, and you were not kicked out, I have to ask you..how long ago did this happen? I know they immediately gave you a urinalysis test. How did you do? You got into ranger school with a drug hit on your record? Really? Damn. When your record came up on a board for advancement, and they saw you (as a kid) had a drug hit on your record, this didnt have any affect on their decision when they were considering you for advancement to E-7 or above? REally? They are sitting at an advancement board and you have a drug hit, and they advanced you? I have 20 years in and I have never heard of such a thing. AGain, I have to ask, what year was this? I retired in 04, so maybe this was way way before my time.

ed.

I just spoke with a buddy who Just retired...He is/was a NCCS (Navy) and he said this about your situation...

Ya... drug bust then special forces seems a little weird..... but hey... we've been at war for several years now... with some of those guys on their 7th or 8th tour... wouldn't be surprised at the leniency when it comes to programs and retention... but it does seem a bit weird.


He is under the impression this just happened to you. I am thinking this happened years ago (you attempting to get into the rangers). Could you clear this up please?

1981........I fully passed the urinalysis, which was given an hour after the seeds were found. There was no evidence that I actually used, only evidence of 3 seeds....It could not be determined that I was a user, only that at some time there was weed in my room.[/QUOTE]

If that happened in the Air Force right now, your ass would be interrogated and in confinement until the story about the marijuana seeds comes out, they are ending careers over positive drug tests and anything to do with drugs basically.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Are you drunk? Oh and if they found weed residue in your possession, and you were not kicked out, I have to ask you..how long ago did this happen? I know they immediately gave you a urinalysis test. How did you do? You got into ranger school with a drug hit on your record? Really? Damn. When your record came up on a board for advancement, and they saw you (as a kid) had a drug hit on your record, this didnt have any affect on their decision when they were considering you for advancement to E-7 or above? REally? They are sitting at an advancement board and you have a drug hit, and they advanced you? I have 20 years in and I have never heard of such a thing. AGain, I have to ask, what year was this? I retired in 04, so maybe this was way way before my time.

ed.

I just spoke with a buddy who Just retired...He is/was a NCCS (Navy) and he said this about your situation...

Ya... drug bust then special forces seems a little weird..... but hey... we've been at war for several years now... with some of those guys on their 7th or 8th tour... wouldn't be surprised at the leniency when it comes to programs and retention... but it does seem a bit weird.


He is under the impression this just happened to you. I am thinking this happened years ago (you attempting to get into the rangers). Could you clear this up please?

1981........I fully passed the urinalysis, which was given an hour after the seeds were found. There was no evidence that I actually used, only evidence of 3 seeds....It could not be determined that I was a user, only that at some time there was weed in my room.[/QUOTE]

If that happened in the Air Force right now, your ass would be interrogated and in confinement until the story about the marijuana seeds comes out, they are ending careers over positive drug tests and anything to do with drugs basically.

Things were much different back then.......Hell, I don't believe they were drug screening upon enlistment. I remember my recruiter asking me if I did any drugs, I told him yes, he said answer no on the enlistment forms. Can't remember if they tested for drugs. I doubt it, 'cause I would have most likely failed.

 

[High_Gravity]

1981........I fully passed the urinalysis, which was given an hour after the seeds were found. There was no evidence that I actually used, only evidence of 3 seeds....It could not be determined that I was a user, only that at some time there was weed in my room.[/QUOTE]

If that happened in the Air Force right now, your ass would be interrogated and in confinement until the story about the marijuana seeds comes out, they are ending careers over positive drug tests and anything to do with drugs basically.

Things were much different back then.......Hell, I don't believe they were drug screening upon enlistment. I remember my recruiter asking me if I did any drugs, I told him yes, he said answer no on the enlistment forms. Can't remember if they tested for drugs. I doubt it, 'cause I would have most likely failed.

My friend enlisted in the Air Force back in the 80s and he told me things were completely different, he said smoking weed just got you a letter if counseling and a stern talking to, now its a career ender. He also told me they would bring in strippers to the NCO club on the weekend, now thats frowned upon and they don't do it, man I missed the best era in the Military.

 

[TheBrain]

I served as an officer and when officers are passed up for promotion or screw up they are forced to basically get out, in West's case he broke the rules, plain and simple so he had to go, he was relieved of command and when you get relieved your days are over, stop making excuses for West.

Completely inaccurate. Officers can survive being passed over for one promotion. Usually they can't survive a second pass over. Also there are varying degrees of screwing up, and not all of them result in being asked to resign.

Also, I made NO attempt to defend West, in fact quite the opposite I quite clearly said that IMO his actions were wrong.

In this modern military in West's case, once you get a relieved for cause you will be passed over and will never get promoted, thats just the way the military works. The military is ultra competitive and either you get it right the first time or you're out especially field grade officers.

I realize this, but being told you'll not be promoted on the next board is not a career ender. Now normally if you get passed over a second time it is a career ender, but that could have been 4 or more years down the road after the first board passed him over; so his career was not over just because he was unrpomotable had he chosen to remain in service, not at this point anyway.

 

[TheBrain]

1981........I fully passed the urinalysis, which was given an hour after the seeds were found. There was no evidence that I actually used, only evidence of 3 seeds....It could not be determined that I was a user, only that at some time there was weed in my room.[/QUOTE]

If that happened in the Air Force right now, your ass would be interrogated and in confinement until the story about the marijuana seeds comes out, they are ending careers over positive drug tests and anything to do with drugs basically.

Things were much different back then.......Hell, I don't believe they were drug screening upon enlistment. I remember my recruiter asking me if I did any drugs, I told him yes, he said answer no on the enlistment forms. Can't remember if they tested for drugs. I doubt it, 'cause I would have most likely failed.

I don't even remember being asked. I'm sure I was, but I don't remember it.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Things were much different back then.......Hell, I don't believe they were drug screening upon enlistment. I remember my recruiter asking me if I did any drugs, I told him yes, he said answer no on the enlistment forms. Can't remember if they tested for drugs. I doubt it, 'cause I would have most likely failed.

I don't even remember being asked. I'm sure I was, but I don't remember it.

I clearly remember it. Clearly remember my recruiter telling me to answer no.

 

[Zona]

Please..."black media outlets" give me a break they are bought and paid for by the libs, and you don't know who I know alright? I could walk into a room filled with African Americans and blend right in I might be a little light skin but other then that no problem

my point stands, West will and would never get a significant amount of the black vote, I don't give a damn where you would blend in at, there are plenty of house Negroes who don't know anything about African Americans and you are no different from them if you think most black voters would vote for West. He didn't get a significant amount of the black vote during his election then and would get any now.

I never said most, I said a significant amount, and I never heard of "house Negroes' If you used that term to any of my friends in Detroit, I guarantee you you’re ass would be stomped.

They have black republicans in detoit? Really?

I have to look this one up because I find it hard to believe.

 

[Zona]

Things were much different back then.......Hell, I don't believe they were drug screening upon enlistment. I remember my recruiter asking me if I did any drugs, I told him yes, he said answer no on the enlistment forms. Can't remember if they tested for drugs. I doubt it, 'cause I would have most likely failed.

I don't even remember being asked. I'm sure I was, but I don't remember it.

I joined in 84 and the recruiter did ask me..but we were all tested for drugs. All of us and pretty much my entire career it was a zero policy when it came to drugs.

Drunks got three of four chances, but zero tolerance for drugs during my 20.

 

[Zona]

You keep claiming it was forced discharge, but can come up with one shred of evidence, too include anything from his commanding general that it was a forced discharge.......A forced discharge, I would think, would come under chapter, like chapter 13, where it would have fallen under a ''General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions"

Either put up the evidence, or simply stop claiming it......It's really that simple.

Was it technically a forced discharge? No, of course not. Was it in effect a forced discharge? I'd say yes. Relieved for cause and an Article 15 for assault kills the career of an O-5. He would not receive another command for a long time, if ever, and would have no chance of promotion until after 1 or 2 successful commands and slim chance afterwards. An E-3 can get forgiveness for a minor drug charge (especially in 1981 when the Army was very busy dealing with serious drug problems), but it's completely different with a field grade officer.

His career was effectively over and retirement as soon as possible was in all ways preferable to trying to continue service. So literally forced out? No. Left with no better options than retirement? Yes.

Back in '81, if they gigged everybody for future advancement for minor weed infractions, there would not have been much of a military..........I tested clean, therefore there was no evidence of actual use. I was allowed to speak to JAG before going before our Battalion CO. He reccomended just admitting to the seeds on the floor. It was in no way an admission of use, and the clean test provided no evidence of use. I asked if it would effect future promotions or opportunities, and he stated no. All other factors of my service would negate the minor charge. Too include the amount of money the ARMY had already spent on my training to that point, I.E, Basic, Infantry, Airborne, etc........Had I tested positive, I would have most likely been sent to drug diversion. After completion of dd, it would have most likely not affected any future promotions or advancements either.

On the point of West, he wasn't forced to retire. He could have elected to stay in and resume his career. Whether any future advacemants would be warranted, would be up to high command.......So, Zona's repeated assertions that he was forced to retire is completely bogus.

Quick question...did he lose his commnd due to his infringments?

was he fined 5k?

could he have been promoted after losing his command and was he found guilty of violating 2 ucmj rules?

Now, stay with me here, have you ever heard of an officer losing his command and then being promoted?

Did he "retire" early?

Be honest now.

Doper.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Was it technically a forced discharge? No, of course not. Was it in effect a forced discharge? I'd say yes. Relieved for cause and an Article 15 for assault kills the career of an O-5. He would not receive another command for a long time, if ever, and would have no chance of promotion until after 1 or 2 successful commands and slim chance afterwards. An E-3 can get forgiveness for a minor drug charge (especially in 1981 when the Army was very busy dealing with serious drug problems), but it's completely different with a field grade officer.

His career was effectively over and retirement as soon as possible was in all ways preferable to trying to continue service. So literally forced out? No. Left with no better options than retirement? Yes.

Back in '81, if they gigged everybody for future advancement for minor weed infractions, there would not have been much of a military..........I tested clean, therefore there was no evidence of actual use. I was allowed to speak to JAG before going before our Battalion CO. He reccomended just admitting to the seeds on the floor. It was in no way an admission of use, and the clean test provided no evidence of use. I asked if it would effect future promotions or opportunities, and he stated no. All other factors of my service would negate the minor charge. Too include the amount of money the ARMY had already spent on my training to that point, I.E, Basic, Infantry, Airborne, etc........Had I tested positive, I would have most likely been sent to drug diversion. After completion of dd, it would have most likely not affected any future promotions or advancements either.

On the point of West, he wasn't forced to retire. He could have elected to stay in and resume his career. Whether any future advacemants would be warranted, would be up to high command.......So, Zona's repeated assertions that he was forced to retire is completely bogus.

Quick question...did he lose his commnd due to his infringments?

was he fined 5k?

could he have been promoted after losing his command and was he found guilty of violating 2 ucmj rules?

Now, stay with me here, have you ever heard of an officer losing his command and then being promoted?

Did he "retire" early?

Be honest now.

Doper.

Follow me, drunk........YOU are the one stating that the ARMY forced him to retire. YOU cannot provide evidence of such, because he was not forced to retire.........Doesn't matter if he lost his command........Doesn't matter that he wouldn't be promoted.......YOU made the claim the he was forced to retire.......YOU made the claim that the ARMY made it a condition in his article 15........YOU abjectly lied, to try and play partisan BS.

BTW, I didn't smoke weed while serving. Never failed a piss. I simply allowed people to fire up in my room after a night of drinking in downtown Fairbainks bars....So, that throws your whole doper analogy BS right out the proverbial window, ya' lying hack.

Run along now Zona, you were blatantly lying, and were once again pawned for doing so.

Once again, you are a tried and true no-go fool.

 

[Jroc]

my point stands, West will and would never get a significant amount of the black vote, I don't give a damn where you would blend in at, there are plenty of house Negroes who don't know anything about African Americans and you are no different from them if you think most black voters would vote for West. He didn't get a significant amount of the black vote during his election then and would get any now.

I never said most, I said a significant amount, and I never heard of "house Negroes' If you used that term to any of my friends in Detroit, I guarantee you you’re ass would be stomped.

They have black republicans in detoit? Really?

I have to look this one up because I find it hard to believe.

There are black Republicans everywhere, and I didn't say all my black friends were Republicans did I? I said that if he were to talk that shit were I'm from (Detroit) he would get his "ass stomped" Oh... they do have a black conservative radio talk show here on the Sat.