Abu Ghraib...it echoes still

Bullypulpit

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
5,849
Reaction score
382
Points
48
Location
Columbus, OH
<blockquote>"...the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib. We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable.” - <a href=http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh?printable=true>Maj. Gen.(Ret.) Antonio Taguba</a></blockquote>

So concludes General Taguba in <i>The New Yorker</i>. An honorable man thrust by circumstance into an investigation that continues to come back and bite the Bush administration in the ass long after they thought it dead. And to this date, none of those responsible for the crimes and abuses at Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere, have answered for their actions. Actions which, like a purlent infection, spread from GITMO to Iraq.

The sad fact of the matter is that the only one officer stands to be tried for the events at Abu Ghraib in August, and the only others that have been convicted were the enlisted folks that were thrown under the bus to keep those higher up the chain of command clear of any blame.

Further investigations by C.I.D. officers have been deemed a dead end because they are denied security clearances needed to access the records and personnel, many of whom operated under false names, needed to successfully conduct an investigation. But it wouldn't be the first time the Bush administration has used the excuse of "national security" to obstruct an investigation into investigations into its activities. Remember Chimpy's little domestic spying operation that got blown open last year? <a href=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12727867/from/RSS/>The NSA denied investigators from the OPR the security clearances</a> they needed to conduct their investigation into that, compared to the horrors of Abu Ghraib, minor bit of skull-duggery.

General Taguba was thrown under the bus because he refused to remain silent in the face of gross abuses of human rights under US law, treaty and international law. As we know by this point, the rule of law means little more to this administration than an impediment to its pursuit of unrestricted power.
 

Truthmatters

Diamond Member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
80,182
Reaction score
2,265
Points
1,283
Make him head of an investigation and then throw him under the bus for doing an honest investigation.

This admin hates it when people are honest and efficient.
 

Gunny

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
44,689
Reaction score
6,852
Points
198
Location
The Republic of Texas
<blockquote>"...the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib. We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable.” - <a href=http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/06/25/070625fa_fact_hersh?printable=true>Maj. Gen.(Ret.) Antonio Taguba</a></blockquote>

So concludes General Taguba in <i>The New Yorker</i>. An honorable man thrust by circumstance into an investigation that continues to come back and bite the Bush administration in the ass long after they thought it dead. And to this date, none of those responsible for the crimes and abuses at Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere, have answered for their actions. Actions which, like a purlent infection, spread from GITMO to Iraq.

The sad fact of the matter is that the only one officer stands to be tried for the events at Abu Ghraib in August, and the only others that have been convicted were the enlisted folks that were thrown under the bus to keep those higher up the chain of command clear of any blame.

Further investigations by C.I.D. officers have been deemed a dead end because they are denied security clearances needed to access the records and personnel, many of whom operated under false names, needed to successfully conduct an investigation. But it wouldn't be the first time the Bush administration has used the excuse of "national security" to obstruct an investigation into investigations into its activities. Remember Chimpy's little domestic spying operation that got blown open last year? <a href=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12727867/from/RSS/>The NSA denied investigators from the OPR the security clearances</a> they needed to conduct their investigation into that, compared to the horrors of Abu Ghraib, minor bit of skull-duggery.

General Taguba was thrown under the bus because he refused to remain silent in the face of gross abuses of human rights under US law, treaty and international law. As we know by this point, the rule of law means little more to this administration than an impediment to its pursuit of unrestricted power.

Sure it echoes still. It's got parrots like you and TM that just keep bringing it up, over and over, to no REAL purpose other than to point your grimey little meatbeaters at the administration.
 

Truthmatters

Diamond Member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
80,182
Reaction score
2,265
Points
1,283
Karpinski and Tuguba ring a bell?

its in the current news.

I know you would perfer the news not report things that hurt your president but hey its America.
 
OP
Bullypulpit

Bullypulpit

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
5,849
Reaction score
382
Points
48
Location
Columbus, OH
Sure it echoes still. It's got parrots like you and TM that just keep bringing it up, over and over, to no REAL purpose other than to point your grimey little meatbeaters at the administration.
I didn't bring it up, Antonio Taguba did. He served his country honorably and had is career destroyed for it. Come to think of it, so did Eric Shinseki, and just about anyone else who disagreed with, or contradicted the Bush administration.

Just because you can't accept the utter criminality of the Bush administration with out suffering a cognitive and existential melt-down is your problem, not mine. While you're at it, why don't you follow the link and actually READ the article.
 

Gunny

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
44,689
Reaction score
6,852
Points
198
Location
The Republic of Texas
Karpinski and Tuguba ring a bell?

its in the current news.

I know you would perfer the news not report things that hurt your president but hey its America.
You just aren't very bright, are you? For one thing, the President of the US is YOUR President too. About time you got over it.

Second, Abu Ghraib doesn't really hurt the President. It hurts the US military, and the US, because of the propaganda it provides. What's even worse, it's YOU leftwingnuts providing the enemy with the propaganda.

The fact is, Abu Ghraib was an isolated incident, carried out by a few individuals, that you lefties and your ever-willing conspirators have turned into something way beyond anything it's worth.
 

Gunny

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
44,689
Reaction score
6,852
Points
198
Location
The Republic of Texas
I didn't bring it up, Antonio Taguba did. He served his country honorably and had is career destroyed for it. Come to think of it, so did Eric Shinseki, and just about anyone else who disagreed with, or contradicted the Bush administration.

Just because you can't accept the utter criminality of the Bush administration with out suffering a cognitive and existential melt-down is your problem, not mine. While you're at it, why don't you follow the link and actually READ the article.
I think we already had this debate last week. Guess you weren't around. Tagabu's statements are unsubstantiated OPINIONS. That of course, makes them no more or less credible than the former SecDef's.

The SOLE reason you give them credence at all is because he's pointing a finger at the administration, and you'll hop each and every time someone does.

When Tagabu can provide more than his uncorroborated word as evidence this oped has no basis in fact. Just one disgruntled employee's attempt to lash out at his former employer.
 
OP
Bullypulpit

Bullypulpit

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
5,849
Reaction score
382
Points
48
Location
Columbus, OH
I think we already had this debate last week. Guess you weren't around. Tagabu's statements are unsubstantiated OPINIONS. That of course, makes them no more or less credible than the former SecDef's.

The SOLE reason you give them credence at all is because he's pointing a finger at the administration, and you'll hop each and every time someone does.

When Tagabu can provide more than his uncorroborated word as evidence this oped has no basis in fact. Just one disgruntled employee's attempt to lash out at his former employer.
Tch...Tch...Tch...Getting a bit testy, aren't we. If Bush and his administration had a shred of integrity or credibility, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. But they don't, so I won't. I'll take Taguba's word, and that of the other retired generals who served in Iraq and have raised their voice in condemnation of the administration and it's disasterous policies over that of this administration any day.
 

Gunny

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
44,689
Reaction score
6,852
Points
198
Location
The Republic of Texas
Tch...Tch...Tch...Getting a bit testy, aren't we. If Bush and his administration had a shred of integrity or credibility, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. But they don't, so I won't. I'll take Taguba's word, and that of the other retired generals who served in Iraq and have raised their voice in condemnation of the administration and it's disasterous policies over that of this administration any day.
In other words, you have nothing to back your stance but your opinion?

I'm not touchy about Bush-bashing. It's all we've suffered through for 6+ years from you leftwing soundboxes.

I'm DISGUSTED that you lefties put being a partisan hack ahead of being an American and providing OUR enemy with propaganda by blowing this shit so far out of proprotion it isn't funny.

You're in the military (or were) ... so you KNOW there are criminals in the military same as the civilian world and they commit crimes every day. You also know that 6 National Guardsmen are HARDLY representative of the military as whole.

Were YOU ever taught it was okay to violate the Law of War and/or UCMJ? I seriously doubt it. These criminals violated the law and were punished. It's over. DO try and get over it, or get some new talking points.
 
OP
Bullypulpit

Bullypulpit

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
5,849
Reaction score
382
Points
48
Location
Columbus, OH
In other words, you have nothing to back your stance but your opinion?

I'm not touchy about Bush-bashing. It's all we've suffered through for 6+ years from you leftwing soundboxes.

I'm DISGUSTED that you lefties put being a partisan hack ahead of being an American and providing OUR enemy with propaganda by blowing this shit so far out of proprotion it isn't funny.

You're in the military (or were) ... so you KNOW there are criminals in the military same as the civilian world and they commit crimes every day. You also know that 6 National Guardsmen are HARDLY representative of the military as whole.

Were YOU ever taught it was okay to violate the Law of War and/or UCMJ? I seriously doubt it. These criminals violated the law and were punished. It's over. DO try and get over it, or get some new talking points.
What facts are you attempting to dispute?

That Maj Gen Geoffrey Miller's, formerly commander at GITMO, approach to the interrogation of prisoners at Abu Ghraib "was not consistent with Army doctrine"?

Lt. Col. Steven Jordan is the only officer charged with crimes in this matter?

That few of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib during this period had ANY affiliation with ANY terrorist organization?

That Maj Gen Taguba was prevented from investigating further up the chain of command?

That Maj Gen Taguba was discouraged every step of the way in his investigation?

That the response from those in, and up, the chain of command was "They're just Iraqis..."?

You're the one who needs to rely on something other than opinion, old son. The Administration talking points are more than a little threadbare at this point. If anyone has provided our enemies with propaganda, it is the Bush administration in its intransigent assertion that it stands above the law and is a law unto itself.
 

Gunny

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
44,689
Reaction score
6,852
Points
198
Location
The Republic of Texas
What facts are you attempting to dispute?

That Maj Gen Geoffrey Miller's, formerly commander at GITMO, approach to the interrogation of prisoners at Abu Ghraib "was not consistent with Army doctrine"?

Lt. Col. Steven Jordan is the only officer charged with crimes in this matter?

That few of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib during this period had ANY affiliation with ANY terrorist organization?

That Maj Gen Taguba was prevented from investigating further up the chain of command?

That Maj Gen Taguba was discouraged every step of the way in his investigation?

That the response from those in, and up, the chain of command was "They're just Iraqis..."?

You're the one who needs to rely on something other than opinion, old son. The Administration talking points are more than a little threadbare at this point. If anyone has provided our enemies with propaganda, it is the Bush administration in its intransigent assertion that it stands above the law and is a law unto itself.
I have repeatedly pointed out the facts. You just refuse to see them. And if you'd bother to look, I'm not defending the Administration no it's so-called "talking points" beyond your baseless allegations.

Tagabu's allegations are unsubstantiated. Period. But because they say "Bush bad" you're all over them.

FYI, I have questioned fromteh start how you go from an E-6 guard to a General officer with no indictments in between, and the ONLY answer I can come up with is there are spooks involved and we sure as Hell wouldn't want to "out" THEM, now would we?

And no, the making a mountain out of a molehill act here was perpetrated by the left and the MSM, PERIOD. You guys collectively did more to tarnish the US's reputation in regard to this subject than ANY of you are worth collectively or individually.
 
OP
Bullypulpit

Bullypulpit

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
5,849
Reaction score
382
Points
48
Location
Columbus, OH
I have repeatedly pointed out the facts. You just refuse to see them. And if you'd bother to look, I'm not defending the Administration no it's so-called "talking points" beyond your baseless allegations.

Tagabu's allegations are unsubstantiated. Period. But because they say "Bush bad" you're all over them.

FYI, I have questioned fromteh start how you go from an E-6 guard to a General officer with no indictments in between, and the ONLY answer I can come up with is there are spooks involved and we sure as Hell wouldn't want to "out" THEM, now would we?

And no, the making a mountain out of a molehill act here was perpetrated by the left and the MSM, PERIOD. You guys collectively did more to tarnish the US's reputation in regard to this subject than ANY of you are worth collectively or individually.
It they've committed crimes, the spooks damn well need to be held accountable. How do you conclude that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were a "mole-hill"? Because they were "just Iraqis"?

As for General Taguba's allegations, from all appearances they seem to be far more substantial than those raised by the Bush administration to lead this nation into the quagmire of Iraq. Given the reports from the ICRC, Amnesty International as well as Taguba's own report on what happenend at Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere, I'll continue to accept his statements on the matter until they are substantially proven to be otherwise. We'll have to agree to disagree.
 

red states rule

Senior Member
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
16,011
Reaction score
573
Points
48
Oh my, the unhuminty!!!

US troops put a bag over the head of a terrorists - while the terrorists CUT OFF THE HEADS of their captives

Did the kook left speak out about that?

I do not recall any outrage when terrorists kidnapped three US soldiers - and then found one, riddled with bullets, floating in a river

Did any libs demand the terrorists follow the GC?

I have never seen a group of people so determined to lose a war so their politcal party can gain politically
 

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top