A message from a Mexican to The USA

[EvilCat Breath]

NO men are created equal. Equality is a function of tyranny. I have been kind in even bothering to answer your question to this degree.

ALL men are created equal- if you can prove you were put together otherwise, I'll accept your kindness- a function of tyranny is forcing a belief- force being key- which is immoral unless used in self defense-

If your heart can believe it your mind can conceive it - if you don't believe it, which apparently not many do, those many can't live it- which will result in tyranny and/or mob rule which disrespects ALL except the more equal- witness what is happening today- Police State USA- FORCED compliance is tyranny - Period.

Forced compliance is equality. Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron?

 

[Correll]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

 

[80zephyr]

How much would it take to change your attitude. Lets ask a hypothetical question. Lets say a Democratic president believed in open borders, and he pledged to bring a billion people to the US. Would you agree with that?

Mark

Answer my question- that will maybe change my attitude- I don't subscribe to ANY political Party. I despise group think in religion and politics as both demand compliance to a dogma- I am an INDIVIDUAL libertarian- I think for myself. I draw conclusions based on my beliefs and issue examination of how a whatever will effect Liberty- Period. My fundamental beliefs is that ALL men are created equal and have certain UNalienable rights. Unalienable rights are inherent- they cannot be taken or granted-

NOW! What do you believe?????

Why am i being asked this? Sure, we have rights. But, do others have a right to trample my own rights? Now, answer my question please.

Mark

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

There you go again, Correll. More deflection leads to more dishonesty on your part. I have made NO argument; am not trying to trick you. I'm attempting to have an honest conversation with you. I take full responsibility for hiring the guy that worked on my house. I have a Right to own personal property. I have a Right to hire the person or company who can do what I want done at a price I can afford. The results are, in the instant case, I saved over $200. the plumber could have stuck the overflow valve in within ten minutes, charged a service fee, had another half an hour of productive time and actually served the needs of the community. You want me to obligated to get screwed by somebody just because they are a willing slave of the NEW WORLD ORDER. I'm not obligated to them - constitutionally or morally. If I have an obligation to hire an American, then that American has an equal responsibility to me to do the job right at a price I can afford. Paying someone $1470 an hour for a skillset that took a year to learn is pure insanity. So, disagree with me, but you have no Right to force your will on me.

As long as there is nobody to do a job at a fair and honest price, you will have cheap foreign labor. This is like watching a rodent on a treadmill. When I have jobs available, I would gladly hire a hard working American that came here looking like a human being and willing to work for a reasonable price. IF any American shows up willing to do the work the job is available. From my perspective, Correll, you are unrealistic.

My wife has two sons by a previous marriage. They have friends who have friends and we also have neighbors. Honest to God, I don't know of an exception. These guys don't have a job, no high school diploma, no ambition, no work history, most don't have a driver's license, no skill sets. They sit on their ass all day long with their cell phone, computer and play video games and / or fret over social media. Since they don't work, they get assistance from the government. Leeching off their parents, they take part of their food money (provided by the government - you in this case) and let other people buy groceries for 70 cents on the dollar (the going rate around here.) This gives these leeches the money they need for pot and cigarettes... sometimes some hard core illegal drugs. Where is the "meantime?" These scumbag pieces of shit could be put to work tomorrow morning.

I'm just like all the other men in America. High taxes have made it so that it takes two paychecks to meet the taxes, insurance, etc. associated with owning a home. But, because of politics, like most men in America I'm fronting for shitsacks, to stay for free in a home I paid for. They eat off of mommy's table, panhandle and sell off part of their welfare income for cigarettes, drugs, etc. It's hard for us to "prove" that is what they're doing. Even if I did, the cops won't do anything about it. I have one in my home right now and he cuts the grass. His mother pays him for that and he gets free rent, free food and use of the washer and dryer. Because of left wing politics, I'm forbidden from kicking him out and / or putting a size nine in his ass and forcing him to go out and get a job. Wouldn't you love to work for two and a half hours per week and get to lay around like a mangy dog doing nothing all day... Hell, my wife even pays for his car! We're no anomaly. It's our entire culture!!! If they got rid of all that "non-violent" B.S. and eliminated the Lautenberg Amendment allowing men to be the head of the house, I'd be the first to put two sorry mother fuckers back in the work force. And as each one of these worthless scumbags got forced back into the workforce, there would be no meantime. It would be they would work or starve. If they don't work, they cannot afford the pot and if they're working, they don't have time for pot. Correll, you don't have an objection that common sense cannot overcome.

 

[Correll]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

There you go again, Correll. More deflection leads to more dishonesty on your part. I have made NO argument; am not trying to trick you. I'm attempting to have an honest conversation with you. I take full responsibility for hiring the guy that worked on my house. I have a Right to own personal property. I have a Right to hire the person or company who can do what I want done at a price I can afford. The results are, in the instant case, I saved over $200. the plumber could have stuck the overflow valve in within ten minutes, charged a service fee, had another half an hour of productive time and actually served the needs of the community. You want me to obligated to get screwed by somebody just because they are a willing slave of the NEW WORLD ORDER. I'm not obligated to them - constitutionally or morally. If I have an obligation to hire an American, then that American has an equal responsibility to me to do the job right at a price I can afford. Paying someone $1470 an hour for a skillset that took a year to learn is pure insanity. So, disagree with me, but you have no Right to force your will on me.

As long as there is nobody to do a job at a fair and honest price, you will have cheap foreign labor. This is like watching a rodent on a treadmill. When I have jobs available, I would gladly hire a hard working American that came here looking like a human being and willing to work for a reasonable price. IF any American shows up willing to do the work the job is available. From my perspective, Correll, you are unrealistic.

My wife has two sons by a previous marriage. They have friends who have friends and we also have neighbors. Honest to God, I don't know of an exception. These guys don't have a job, no high school diploma, no ambition, no work history, most don't have a driver's license, no skill sets. They sit on their ass all day long with their cell phone, computer and play video games and / or fret over social media. Since they don't work, they get assistance from the government. Leeching off their parents, they take part of their food money (provided by the government - you in this case) and let other people buy groceries for 70 cents on the dollar (the going rate around here.) This gives these leeches the money they need for pot and cigarettes... sometimes some hard core illegal drugs. Where is the "meantime?" These scumbag pieces of shit could be put to work tomorrow morning.

I'm just like all the other men in America. High taxes have made it so that it takes two paychecks to meet the taxes, insurance, etc. associated with owning a home. But, because of politics, like most men in America I'm fronting for shitsacks, to stay for free in a home I paid for. They eat off of mommy's table, panhandle and sell off part of their welfare income for cigarettes, drugs, etc. It's hard for us to "prove" that is what they're doing. Even if I did, the cops won't do anything about it. I have one in my home right now and he cuts the grass. His mother pays him for that and he gets free rent, free food and use of the washer and dryer. Because of left wing politics, I'm forbidden from kicking him out and / or putting a size nine in his ass and forcing him to go out and get a job. Wouldn't you love to work for two and a half hours per week and get to lay around like a mangy dog doing nothing all day... Hell, my wife even pays for his car! We're no anomaly. It's our entire culture!!! If they got rid of all that "non-violent" B.S. and eliminated the Lautenberg Amendment allowing men to be the head of the house, I'd be the first to put two sorry mother fuckers back in the work force. And as each one of these worthless scumbags got forced back into the workforce, there would be no meantime. It would be they would work or starve. If they don't work, they cannot afford the pot and if they're working, they don't have time for pot. Correll, you don't have an objection that common sense cannot overcome.

Cheap foreign labor is not inevitable. Deport them. Build the Wall.


You want cheaper plumbers? We can talk about polices to encourage that, that does not undercut American workers.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

The Bill of Rights is a limitation only against the government. It is not applicable to individuals. You do not have any liberty to encroach upon the property of another.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

There you go again, Correll. More deflection leads to more dishonesty on your part. I have made NO argument; am not trying to trick you. I'm attempting to have an honest conversation with you. I take full responsibility for hiring the guy that worked on my house. I have a Right to own personal property. I have a Right to hire the person or company who can do what I want done at a price I can afford. The results are, in the instant case, I saved over $200. the plumber could have stuck the overflow valve in within ten minutes, charged a service fee, had another half an hour of productive time and actually served the needs of the community. You want me to obligated to get screwed by somebody just because they are a willing slave of the NEW WORLD ORDER. I'm not obligated to them - constitutionally or morally. If I have an obligation to hire an American, then that American has an equal responsibility to me to do the job right at a price I can afford. Paying someone $1470 an hour for a skillset that took a year to learn is pure insanity. So, disagree with me, but you have no Right to force your will on me.

As long as there is nobody to do a job at a fair and honest price, you will have cheap foreign labor. This is like watching a rodent on a treadmill. When I have jobs available, I would gladly hire a hard working American that came here looking like a human being and willing to work for a reasonable price. IF any American shows up willing to do the work the job is available. From my perspective, Correll, you are unrealistic.

My wife has two sons by a previous marriage. They have friends who have friends and we also have neighbors. Honest to God, I don't know of an exception. These guys don't have a job, no high school diploma, no ambition, no work history, most don't have a driver's license, no skill sets. They sit on their ass all day long with their cell phone, computer and play video games and / or fret over social media. Since they don't work, they get assistance from the government. Leeching off their parents, they take part of their food money (provided by the government - you in this case) and let other people buy groceries for 70 cents on the dollar (the going rate around here.) This gives these leeches the money they need for pot and cigarettes... sometimes some hard core illegal drugs. Where is the "meantime?" These scumbag pieces of shit could be put to work tomorrow morning.

I'm just like all the other men in America. High taxes have made it so that it takes two paychecks to meet the taxes, insurance, etc. associated with owning a home. But, because of politics, like most men in America I'm fronting for shitsacks, to stay for free in a home I paid for. They eat off of mommy's table, panhandle and sell off part of their welfare income for cigarettes, drugs, etc. It's hard for us to "prove" that is what they're doing. Even if I did, the cops won't do anything about it. I have one in my home right now and he cuts the grass. His mother pays him for that and he gets free rent, free food and use of the washer and dryer. Because of left wing politics, I'm forbidden from kicking him out and / or putting a size nine in his ass and forcing him to go out and get a job. Wouldn't you love to work for two and a half hours per week and get to lay around like a mangy dog doing nothing all day... Hell, my wife even pays for his car! We're no anomaly. It's our entire culture!!! If they got rid of all that "non-violent" B.S. and eliminated the Lautenberg Amendment allowing men to be the head of the house, I'd be the first to put two sorry mother fuckers back in the work force. And as each one of these worthless scumbags got forced back into the workforce, there would be no meantime. It would be they would work or starve. If they don't work, they cannot afford the pot and if they're working, they don't have time for pot. Correll, you don't have an objection that common sense cannot overcome.

Cheap foreign labor is not inevitable. Deport them. Build the Wall.


You want cheaper plumbers? We can talk about polices to encourage that, that does not undercut American workers.

You talk around the issue. Are you afraid of cheap foreign labor or foreigners? You keep dodging the question. I'm trying to get you to help me understand your position. Build a wall - Deport 'em all is a bumper sticker. So, do you have a problem with the "legal" foreigners? It's a simple yes or no question.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

The Bill of Rights is a limitation only against the government. It is not applicable to individuals. You do not have any liberty to encroach upon the property of another.

The government says they own the public roads; I can't think of an employer wherein the employee forced themselves onto the employer. The employer willingly hired them.

The whole build the wall deal made headlines after Ranch Rescue tried to keep some Salvadorans from trespassing over private property in order to effect an improper entry into the United States. In that case, the court ruled that Ranch Rescue violated the civil rights (sic) of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members went to prison and the property owner lost his ranch. I personally tried to get those people to appeal the case, but they were not interested.

So, the law is, the foreigners have "civil rights" that apparently trump the private property Rights of Americans. Instead of swearing at me, you should know that it was the people who are now anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters that helped make that precedent. Were you trying to argue out of ignorance or dishonesty?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I remain in the dark as to why people get their boxers in a bunch on the immigration issue. I do not understand the nature of the problem.

Is the problem the legal status of the foreigner?

Do these people want to stop all foreigners and put a moratorium on all immigration?

Are these people worried only about jobs?

Is the perceived outrage over taxes?

The end game here is so elusive that I'm struggling to find out what the real, bottom line issue is. The only thing I'm getting is that the foreigner did not have the anti liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporter's permission (sic) to exercise their Liberty. If that is the issue they are fighting, then they lost a long time ago. The left has spoken and they outnumber the APM (Anti liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters.) The only reason Trump is president is due to the electoral college and the Dems are attacking that, wanting a popularity vote to decide the outcome of the elections.

If anyone can tell me what the real issue is and what the end game is, please let me know.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

The Bill of Rights is a limitation only against the government. It is not applicable to individuals. You do not have any liberty to encroach upon the property of another.

The government says they own the public roads; I can't think of an employer wherein the employee forced themselves onto the employer. The employer willingly hired them.

The whole build the wall deal made headlines after Ranch Rescue tried to keep some Salvadorans from trespassing over private property in order to effect an improper entry into the United States. In that case, the court ruled that Ranch Rescue violated the civil rights (sic) of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members went to prison and the property owner lost his ranch. I personally tried to get those people to appeal the case, but they were not interested.

So, the law is, the foreigners have "civil rights" that apparently trump the private property Rights of Americans. Instead of swearing at me, you should know that it was the people who are now anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters that helped make that precedent. Were you trying to argue out of ignorance or dishonesty?

I was a member of Ranch Rescue

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

There you go again, Correll. More deflection leads to more dishonesty on your part. I have made NO argument; am not trying to trick you. I'm attempting to have an honest conversation with you. I take full responsibility for hiring the guy that worked on my house. I have a Right to own personal property. I have a Right to hire the person or company who can do what I want done at a price I can afford. The results are, in the instant case, I saved over $200. the plumber could have stuck the overflow valve in within ten minutes, charged a service fee, had another half an hour of productive time and actually served the needs of the community. You want me to obligated to get screwed by somebody just because they are a willing slave of the NEW WORLD ORDER. I'm not obligated to them - constitutionally or morally. If I have an obligation to hire an American, then that American has an equal responsibility to me to do the job right at a price I can afford. Paying someone $1470 an hour for a skillset that took a year to learn is pure insanity. So, disagree with me, but you have no Right to force your will on me.

As long as there is nobody to do a job at a fair and honest price, you will have cheap foreign labor. This is like watching a rodent on a treadmill. When I have jobs available, I would gladly hire a hard working American that came here looking like a human being and willing to work for a reasonable price. IF any American shows up willing to do the work the job is available. From my perspective, Correll, you are unrealistic.

My wife has two sons by a previous marriage. They have friends who have friends and we also have neighbors. Honest to God, I don't know of an exception. These guys don't have a job, no high school diploma, no ambition, no work history, most don't have a driver's license, no skill sets. They sit on their ass all day long with their cell phone, computer and play video games and / or fret over social media. Since they don't work, they get assistance from the government. Leeching off their parents, they take part of their food money (provided by the government - you in this case) and let other people buy groceries for 70 cents on the dollar (the going rate around here.) This gives these leeches the money they need for pot and cigarettes... sometimes some hard core illegal drugs. Where is the "meantime?" These scumbag pieces of shit could be put to work tomorrow morning.

I'm just like all the other men in America. High taxes have made it so that it takes two paychecks to meet the taxes, insurance, etc. associated with owning a home. But, because of politics, like most men in America I'm fronting for shitsacks, to stay for free in a home I paid for. They eat off of mommy's table, panhandle and sell off part of their welfare income for cigarettes, drugs, etc. It's hard for us to "prove" that is what they're doing. Even if I did, the cops won't do anything about it. I have one in my home right now and he cuts the grass. His mother pays him for that and he gets free rent, free food and use of the washer and dryer. Because of left wing politics, I'm forbidden from kicking him out and / or putting a size nine in his ass and forcing him to go out and get a job. Wouldn't you love to work for two and a half hours per week and get to lay around like a mangy dog doing nothing all day... Hell, my wife even pays for his car! We're no anomaly. It's our entire culture!!! If they got rid of all that "non-violent" B.S. and eliminated the Lautenberg Amendment allowing men to be the head of the house, I'd be the first to put two sorry mother fuckers back in the work force. And as each one of these worthless scumbags got forced back into the workforce, there would be no meantime. It would be they would work or starve. If they don't work, they cannot afford the pot and if they're working, they don't have time for pot. Correll, you don't have an objection that common sense cannot overcome.

Cheap foreign labor is not inevitable. Deport them. Build the Wall.


You want cheaper plumbers? We can talk about polices to encourage that, that does not undercut American workers.

You talk around the issue. Are you afraid of cheap foreign labor or foreigners? You keep dodging the question. I'm trying to get you to help me understand your position. Build a wall - Deport 'em all is a bumper sticker. So, do you have a problem with the "legal" foreigners? It's a simple yes or no question.

No wall. Open the border to hunting. No wall necessary. Legal immigration by merit only. No HB1 visas. No family reunification. Drag the invaders out of workplaces, schools, hospitals, old folks homes, wherever they are found and deport their sorry asses back to wherever they come from. Brand them El Salvadoran style across the face. If they come back shot on sight.

Clear enough for you?

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

The Bill of Rights is a limitation only against the government. It is not applicable to individuals. You do not have any liberty to encroach upon the property of another.

The government says they own the public roads; I can't think of an employer wherein the employee forced themselves onto the employer. The employer willingly hired them.

The whole build the wall deal made headlines after Ranch Rescue tried to keep some Salvadorans from trespassing over private property in order to effect an improper entry into the United States. In that case, the court ruled that Ranch Rescue violated the civil rights (sic) of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members went to prison and the property owner lost his ranch. I personally tried to get those people to appeal the case, but they were not interested.

So, the law is, the foreigners have "civil rights" that apparently trump the private property Rights of Americans. Instead of swearing at me, you should know that it was the people who are now anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters that helped make that precedent. Were you trying to argue out of ignorance or dishonesty?

I was IN Ranch Rescue. Jack Foote was a friend of mine. I was with him in Operation Hawk the year before the Sutton Ranch debacle. Only Casey Nethercott went to prison. It was out of that case that Arizona passed a law forbidding illegals from collecting punitive damages against citizens.

The policy of Ranch Rescue was to turn over anyone found to the border patrol. That's a mistake. The desert is a big place.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

The Bill of Rights is a limitation only against the government. It is not applicable to individuals. You do not have any liberty to encroach upon the property of another.

The government says they own the public roads; I can't think of an employer wherein the employee forced themselves onto the employer. The employer willingly hired them.

The whole build the wall deal made headlines after Ranch Rescue tried to keep some Salvadorans from trespassing over private property in order to effect an improper entry into the United States. In that case, the court ruled that Ranch Rescue violated the civil rights (sic) of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members went to prison and the property owner lost his ranch. I personally tried to get those people to appeal the case, but they were not interested.

So, the law is, the foreigners have "civil rights" that apparently trump the private property Rights of Americans. Instead of swearing at me, you should know that it was the people who are now anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters that helped make that precedent. Were you trying to argue out of ignorance or dishonesty?

I was a member of Ranch Rescue

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

There you go again, Correll. More deflection leads to more dishonesty on your part. I have made NO argument; am not trying to trick you. I'm attempting to have an honest conversation with you. I take full responsibility for hiring the guy that worked on my house. I have a Right to own personal property. I have a Right to hire the person or company who can do what I want done at a price I can afford. The results are, in the instant case, I saved over $200. the plumber could have stuck the overflow valve in within ten minutes, charged a service fee, had another half an hour of productive time and actually served the needs of the community. You want me to obligated to get screwed by somebody just because they are a willing slave of the NEW WORLD ORDER. I'm not obligated to them - constitutionally or morally. If I have an obligation to hire an American, then that American has an equal responsibility to me to do the job right at a price I can afford. Paying someone $1470 an hour for a skillset that took a year to learn is pure insanity. So, disagree with me, but you have no Right to force your will on me.

As long as there is nobody to do a job at a fair and honest price, you will have cheap foreign labor. This is like watching a rodent on a treadmill. When I have jobs available, I would gladly hire a hard working American that came here looking like a human being and willing to work for a reasonable price. IF any American shows up willing to do the work the job is available. From my perspective, Correll, you are unrealistic.

My wife has two sons by a previous marriage. They have friends who have friends and we also have neighbors. Honest to God, I don't know of an exception. These guys don't have a job, no high school diploma, no ambition, no work history, most don't have a driver's license, no skill sets. They sit on their ass all day long with their cell phone, computer and play video games and / or fret over social media. Since they don't work, they get assistance from the government. Leeching off their parents, they take part of their food money (provided by the government - you in this case) and let other people buy groceries for 70 cents on the dollar (the going rate around here.) This gives these leeches the money they need for pot and cigarettes... sometimes some hard core illegal drugs. Where is the "meantime?" These scumbag pieces of shit could be put to work tomorrow morning.

I'm just like all the other men in America. High taxes have made it so that it takes two paychecks to meet the taxes, insurance, etc. associated with owning a home. But, because of politics, like most men in America I'm fronting for shitsacks, to stay for free in a home I paid for. They eat off of mommy's table, panhandle and sell off part of their welfare income for cigarettes, drugs, etc. It's hard for us to "prove" that is what they're doing. Even if I did, the cops won't do anything about it. I have one in my home right now and he cuts the grass. His mother pays him for that and he gets free rent, free food and use of the washer and dryer. Because of left wing politics, I'm forbidden from kicking him out and / or putting a size nine in his ass and forcing him to go out and get a job. Wouldn't you love to work for two and a half hours per week and get to lay around like a mangy dog doing nothing all day... Hell, my wife even pays for his car! We're no anomaly. It's our entire culture!!! If they got rid of all that "non-violent" B.S. and eliminated the Lautenberg Amendment allowing men to be the head of the house, I'd be the first to put two sorry mother fuckers back in the work force. And as each one of these worthless scumbags got forced back into the workforce, there would be no meantime. It would be they would work or starve. If they don't work, they cannot afford the pot and if they're working, they don't have time for pot. Correll, you don't have an objection that common sense cannot overcome.

Cheap foreign labor is not inevitable. Deport them. Build the Wall.


You want cheaper plumbers? We can talk about polices to encourage that, that does not undercut American workers.

You talk around the issue. Are you afraid of cheap foreign labor or foreigners? You keep dodging the question. I'm trying to get you to help me understand your position. Build a wall - Deport 'em all is a bumper sticker. So, do you have a problem with the "legal" foreigners? It's a simple yes or no question.

No wall. Open the border to hunting. No wall necessary. Legal immigration by merit only. No HB1 visas. No family reunification. Drag the invaders out of workplaces, schools, hospitals, old folks homes, wherever they are found and deport their sorry asses back to wherever they come from. Brand them El Salvadoran style across the face. If they come back shot on sight.

Clear enough for you?

No, for the umpteenth time. Is it the foreigners OR are you making an argument over their so - called "legal status?" If you just send people back to Mexico, do you give a rip who the government is letting in through what your side mis-characterizes as "legal?" Since you cannot criminalize Liberty, the term improper is used to describe the infraction. Your people should have taken my advice at the time and appealed the decision. Now, you have your name attached to a precedent acknowledging the foreigners "civil rights."

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

The Bill of Rights is a limitation only against the government. It is not applicable to individuals. You do not have any liberty to encroach upon the property of another.

The government says they own the public roads; I can't think of an employer wherein the employee forced themselves onto the employer. The employer willingly hired them.

The whole build the wall deal made headlines after Ranch Rescue tried to keep some Salvadorans from trespassing over private property in order to effect an improper entry into the United States. In that case, the court ruled that Ranch Rescue violated the civil rights (sic) of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members went to prison and the property owner lost his ranch. I personally tried to get those people to appeal the case, but they were not interested.

So, the law is, the foreigners have "civil rights" that apparently trump the private property Rights of Americans. Instead of swearing at me, you should know that it was the people who are now anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters that helped make that precedent. Were you trying to argue out of ignorance or dishonesty?

I was a member of Ranch Rescue

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

There you go again, Correll. More deflection leads to more dishonesty on your part. I have made NO argument; am not trying to trick you. I'm attempting to have an honest conversation with you. I take full responsibility for hiring the guy that worked on my house. I have a Right to own personal property. I have a Right to hire the person or company who can do what I want done at a price I can afford. The results are, in the instant case, I saved over $200. the plumber could have stuck the overflow valve in within ten minutes, charged a service fee, had another half an hour of productive time and actually served the needs of the community. You want me to obligated to get screwed by somebody just because they are a willing slave of the NEW WORLD ORDER. I'm not obligated to them - constitutionally or morally. If I have an obligation to hire an American, then that American has an equal responsibility to me to do the job right at a price I can afford. Paying someone $1470 an hour for a skillset that took a year to learn is pure insanity. So, disagree with me, but you have no Right to force your will on me.

As long as there is nobody to do a job at a fair and honest price, you will have cheap foreign labor. This is like watching a rodent on a treadmill. When I have jobs available, I would gladly hire a hard working American that came here looking like a human being and willing to work for a reasonable price. IF any American shows up willing to do the work the job is available. From my perspective, Correll, you are unrealistic.

My wife has two sons by a previous marriage. They have friends who have friends and we also have neighbors. Honest to God, I don't know of an exception. These guys don't have a job, no high school diploma, no ambition, no work history, most don't have a driver's license, no skill sets. They sit on their ass all day long with their cell phone, computer and play video games and / or fret over social media. Since they don't work, they get assistance from the government. Leeching off their parents, they take part of their food money (provided by the government - you in this case) and let other people buy groceries for 70 cents on the dollar (the going rate around here.) This gives these leeches the money they need for pot and cigarettes... sometimes some hard core illegal drugs. Where is the "meantime?" These scumbag pieces of shit could be put to work tomorrow morning.

I'm just like all the other men in America. High taxes have made it so that it takes two paychecks to meet the taxes, insurance, etc. associated with owning a home. But, because of politics, like most men in America I'm fronting for shitsacks, to stay for free in a home I paid for. They eat off of mommy's table, panhandle and sell off part of their welfare income for cigarettes, drugs, etc. It's hard for us to "prove" that is what they're doing. Even if I did, the cops won't do anything about it. I have one in my home right now and he cuts the grass. His mother pays him for that and he gets free rent, free food and use of the washer and dryer. Because of left wing politics, I'm forbidden from kicking him out and / or putting a size nine in his ass and forcing him to go out and get a job. Wouldn't you love to work for two and a half hours per week and get to lay around like a mangy dog doing nothing all day... Hell, my wife even pays for his car! We're no anomaly. It's our entire culture!!! If they got rid of all that "non-violent" B.S. and eliminated the Lautenberg Amendment allowing men to be the head of the house, I'd be the first to put two sorry mother fuckers back in the work force. And as each one of these worthless scumbags got forced back into the workforce, there would be no meantime. It would be they would work or starve. If they don't work, they cannot afford the pot and if they're working, they don't have time for pot. Correll, you don't have an objection that common sense cannot overcome.

Cheap foreign labor is not inevitable. Deport them. Build the Wall.


You want cheaper plumbers? We can talk about polices to encourage that, that does not undercut American workers.

You talk around the issue. Are you afraid of cheap foreign labor or foreigners? You keep dodging the question. I'm trying to get you to help me understand your position. Build a wall - Deport 'em all is a bumper sticker. So, do you have a problem with the "legal" foreigners? It's a simple yes or no question.

No wall. Open the border to hunting. No wall necessary. Legal immigration by merit only. No HB1 visas. No family reunification. Drag the invaders out of workplaces, schools, hospitals, old folks homes, wherever they are found and deport their sorry asses back to wherever they come from. Brand them El Salvadoran style across the face. If they come back shot on sight.

Clear enough for you?

No, for the umpteenth time. Is it the foreigners OR are you making an argument over their so - called "legal status?" If you just send people back to Mexico, do you give a rip who the government is letting in through what your side mis-characterizes as "legal?" Since you cannot criminalize Liberty, the term improper is used to describe the infraction. Your people should have taken my advice at the time and appealed the decision. Now, you have your name attached to a precedent acknowledging the foreigners "civil rights."

For the umpteenth time. Send them all back to wherever they came from. Legalize hunting across the border. Simple. Sorry you can't understand it. Perhaps you need someone else to chat with. Someone with the same lack of knowledge and understanding as you have.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

You don't know what the purpose of the Declaration of Independence was. It had nothing to do with forces invading our borders. There is no unalienable right to come here like there is no unalienable right to move into your home and demand support.

Define Liberty as the founders / framers understood it. Do you support it?

The argument when the Declaration of Independence was written was whether it should include the word liberty at all. As originally written it was ownership of property that was the unalienable right. The people had the right to own land, businesses, their own labor that they could bargain away at will. At the time, the Crown owned everything. The guarantee was that a person would own the fruits of their enterprise. That was liberty. The founders should have kept the original writing because the word liberty has been bastardized as has "pursuit of happiness".

If I have a Right to own personal property, the don't I have a Right to hire the person who will do a job for me for what I'm willing to pay? After all, the songwriter is entitled to property Rights in the song he or she writes. Why should I not own the job I create?

You say the word Liberty was bastardized. It so happens that I have an 1828 Noah Webster' Dictionary of the English Language. Noah Webster was a friend to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and Webster had a lot of influence in the wording of the Constitution, but more importantly his 1828 Dictionary was the first dictionary published in the United States. His entry on the word liberty is quite extensive, so I'll only quote what is relevant to this discussion:

"Liberty - Freedom of restraint, in a general sense, and applicable to the body, or to the will or the mind. The body is at liberty, when not confined; the will of the mind is at liberty when not checked or controlled. A man enjoys liberty when no physical force operates to restrain his actions or volitions."

Therefore, if you restrain a man's physical actions (i.e. you tell him he cannot travel down a public road) then you have violated his liberty. But, we do have you on record that you do not believe in unalienable Rights (so you oppose the Bill of Rights since the Bill of Rights is the principles of the Declaration of Independence in a codified form.) Thank you. That will help a lot in future posts.

The Bill of Rights is a limitation only against the government. It is not applicable to individuals. You do not have any liberty to encroach upon the property of another.

The government says they own the public roads; I can't think of an employer wherein the employee forced themselves onto the employer. The employer willingly hired them.

The whole build the wall deal made headlines after Ranch Rescue tried to keep some Salvadorans from trespassing over private property in order to effect an improper entry into the United States. In that case, the court ruled that Ranch Rescue violated the civil rights (sic) of the Salvadorans. Ranch Rescue members went to prison and the property owner lost his ranch. I personally tried to get those people to appeal the case, but they were not interested.

So, the law is, the foreigners have "civil rights" that apparently trump the private property Rights of Americans. Instead of swearing at me, you should know that it was the people who are now anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters that helped make that precedent. Were you trying to argue out of ignorance or dishonesty?

I was a member of Ranch Rescue

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

If your response to that problem is to argue that we should not licenses plumbers, and you want to pursue that policy, I would not oppose you. I do not have strong feelings or interest in it myself.


If your response is to argue that, as a society, it is morally and/or legally wrong, to regulate the plumbing service ie, requiring licensing, and that governments are being oppressive it they do, I'm going to be suspicious and doubtful.


If your response is that we need to bring in large numbers of immigrant plumbers to flood the market with supply, thus lowering market rates and ruining and bankrupting all American plumbers,


I will oppose you.

Those are not very cogent arguments. I'm not bringing anyone into a neighborhood. The big box guy that thinks he should charge more than a surgeon for a skill set that can be learned in six months is your problem. The government that locks people out of making a living with restrictions that only allow the rich to compete are your problem. The people who want to violate our Fourth Amendment Rights by giving employers access to information on background checks - that is irrelevant to a job and many times the facts not understood by employers is your problem. The fact that a large percentage of Americans were drugged as children and grew up as drug addicts is part of your problem. Mothers mollycoddling their kids and not making them go out and get a damn job is a substantial part of your problem. Lazy ass White kids that are living off the sweat of their parents and grandparents, squandering the wealth families built up over generations (turning us into a third world nation) are a part of your problem. The government with that POLICE STATE - 24 / 7 365 monitoring from the womb to the tomb with that pee test, blood test, hair sample, criminal background check, credit check, MVR check, license check, occupation license requirement, mandatory insurance, birth certificate, Socialist Surveillance Number (I mean "Social Security Number"), social media access agenda just to get a job at Mickey Ds is also part of your problem.

The more control you advocate for and the bigger you make the government, the more your problem grows exponentially. The moral is, if you take a giant shit in your back yard, the flies are bound to show up. And you are wasting your time by complaining about the flies. Fix your culture; the rest will fix itself.

1. Most of that seemed to be supporting your example as a valid example of a problem. Which I did not challenge sooo.


2. If your solution is to bring in cheap foreign labor to do the work, then I will oppose you, no matter whether or not you deny personal responsibility for the results of your policy.

3. You suggest fixing our culture. Sounds good. I don't how or why allowing immigrants to flood our country while doing that, would be a good policy.

There you go again, Correll. More deflection leads to more dishonesty on your part. I have made NO argument; am not trying to trick you. I'm attempting to have an honest conversation with you. I take full responsibility for hiring the guy that worked on my house. I have a Right to own personal property. I have a Right to hire the person or company who can do what I want done at a price I can afford. The results are, in the instant case, I saved over $200. the plumber could have stuck the overflow valve in within ten minutes, charged a service fee, had another half an hour of productive time and actually served the needs of the community. You want me to obligated to get screwed by somebody just because they are a willing slave of the NEW WORLD ORDER. I'm not obligated to them - constitutionally or morally. If I have an obligation to hire an American, then that American has an equal responsibility to me to do the job right at a price I can afford. Paying someone $1470 an hour for a skillset that took a year to learn is pure insanity. So, disagree with me, but you have no Right to force your will on me.

As long as there is nobody to do a job at a fair and honest price, you will have cheap foreign labor. This is like watching a rodent on a treadmill. When I have jobs available, I would gladly hire a hard working American that came here looking like a human being and willing to work for a reasonable price. IF any American shows up willing to do the work the job is available. From my perspective, Correll, you are unrealistic.

My wife has two sons by a previous marriage. They have friends who have friends and we also have neighbors. Honest to God, I don't know of an exception. These guys don't have a job, no high school diploma, no ambition, no work history, most don't have a driver's license, no skill sets. They sit on their ass all day long with their cell phone, computer and play video games and / or fret over social media. Since they don't work, they get assistance from the government. Leeching off their parents, they take part of their food money (provided by the government - you in this case) and let other people buy groceries for 70 cents on the dollar (the going rate around here.) This gives these leeches the money they need for pot and cigarettes... sometimes some hard core illegal drugs. Where is the "meantime?" These scumbag pieces of shit could be put to work tomorrow morning.

I'm just like all the other men in America. High taxes have made it so that it takes two paychecks to meet the taxes, insurance, etc. associated with owning a home. But, because of politics, like most men in America I'm fronting for shitsacks, to stay for free in a home I paid for. They eat off of mommy's table, panhandle and sell off part of their welfare income for cigarettes, drugs, etc. It's hard for us to "prove" that is what they're doing. Even if I did, the cops won't do anything about it. I have one in my home right now and he cuts the grass. His mother pays him for that and he gets free rent, free food and use of the washer and dryer. Because of left wing politics, I'm forbidden from kicking him out and / or putting a size nine in his ass and forcing him to go out and get a job. Wouldn't you love to work for two and a half hours per week and get to lay around like a mangy dog doing nothing all day... Hell, my wife even pays for his car! We're no anomaly. It's our entire culture!!! If they got rid of all that "non-violent" B.S. and eliminated the Lautenberg Amendment allowing men to be the head of the house, I'd be the first to put two sorry mother fuckers back in the work force. And as each one of these worthless scumbags got forced back into the workforce, there would be no meantime. It would be they would work or starve. If they don't work, they cannot afford the pot and if they're working, they don't have time for pot. Correll, you don't have an objection that common sense cannot overcome.

Cheap foreign labor is not inevitable. Deport them. Build the Wall.


You want cheaper plumbers? We can talk about polices to encourage that, that does not undercut American workers.

You talk around the issue. Are you afraid of cheap foreign labor or foreigners? You keep dodging the question. I'm trying to get you to help me understand your position. Build a wall - Deport 'em all is a bumper sticker. So, do you have a problem with the "legal" foreigners? It's a simple yes or no question.

No wall. Open the border to hunting. No wall necessary. Legal immigration by merit only. No HB1 visas. No family reunification. Drag the invaders out of workplaces, schools, hospitals, old folks homes, wherever they are found and deport their sorry asses back to wherever they come from. Brand them El Salvadoran style across the face. If they come back shot on sight.

Clear enough for you?

No, for the umpteenth time. Is it the foreigners OR are you making an argument over their so - called "legal status?" If you just send people back to Mexico, do you give a rip who the government is letting in through what your side mis-characterizes as "legal?" Since you cannot criminalize Liberty, the term improper is used to describe the infraction. Your people should have taken my advice at the time and appealed the decision. Now, you have your name attached to a precedent acknowledging the foreigners "civil rights."

For the umpteenth time. Send them all back to wherever they came from. Legalize hunting across the border. Simple. Sorry you can't understand it. Perhaps you need someone else to chat with. Someone with the same lack of knowledge and understanding as you have.

You have a lack of reading comprehension skills. Again:

Is it the foreigners OR are you making an argument over their so - called "legal status?"

Your reasoning is the question, not just what you want. The reason you want something is different from the want. A baby pisses their diaper full. They cry and they want mommy. Is the baby crying because their diaper is making them uncomfortable OR are they hungry? A parent can figure that out. I cannot figure out the reason you want people from south of the border deported. Is it on the pretext of their so - called "legal" status OR would you rather see all of the Hispanics deported? A piece of paper issued by an illegal government in Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption does not change the foreigner, who they are, nor what threat they pose to you. I'm just looking for an acknowledgement as to what the bottom line is in order to understand. Otherwise, this conversation won't go anywhere. Neither will your war.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

There is a resistance to giving a straightforward answer to my question. It makes you wonder what people have to fear OR do they simply chant a mantra just because they got caught up in a cult?

Let's be reasonable and cut to the chase. Drunk drivers kill children every day. What's more important than the lives of your children. Yet DUI is a misdemeanor and nobody gets their boxers in a bunch over DUI convictions. We let the same people pay a fine and go right back to doing the same thing. With immigration, much ado is made about the word "illegal." I don't think that this subject is about the legal status of foreigners. That is why these guys continue to dodge, duck, deflect and go back to their bumper sticker talking points.

Personally, I object to the word "illegal" being used as I was once being pursued over the so - called "Patriot Act." Once, when I had government lawyers in a position to pose questions they couldn't dodge, I asked them when in the Hell we started pursuing people and presuming their guilt without Due Process. He said, "Sir we do it all the time. Haven't you ever heard of an illegal alien?" One day, shortly thereafter, the Holy Spirit guided me to a human understanding of WHY it is wrong to be caught up in the cult that our resident anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters find themselves in:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." Thomas Paine

Paine on Preserving Liberty , by Scott Horton

I shall conclude this discourse with offering some observations on the means of preserving liberty; for it is not only necessary that we establish it, but

harpers.org

The link is definitely worth considering.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

How much would it take to change your attitude. Lets ask a hypothetical question. Lets say a Democratic president believed in open borders, and he pledged to bring a billion people to the US. Would you agree with that?

Mark

Answer my question- that will maybe change my attitude- I don't subscribe to ANY political Party. I despise group think in religion and politics as both demand compliance to a dogma- I am an INDIVIDUAL libertarian- I think for myself. I draw conclusions based on my beliefs and issue examination of how a whatever will effect Liberty- Period. My fundamental beliefs is that ALL men are created equal and have certain UNalienable rights. Unalienable rights are inherent- they cannot be taken or granted-

NOW! What do you believe?????

Why am i being asked this? Sure, we have rights. But, do others have a right to trample my own rights? Now, answer my question please.

Mark

What Rights do you have that are being trampled on?

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

You gotta be kidding me
What horseshit

You dont even realize you went from stating illegals dont really get benefits...well they don't really even make a dent , to I've read many studies ....I asked for more than one ,where are the rest of those non partisan studies? ...how many is the many that you've picked over ....give me more ...I want more now

And you need to go answer mexicano anon over at /pol and tell him you want all his neighbors back ...

Yes we all know they pay sales taxes and other fees and what not ...give me more studies that you claim to have read ...lets see those non partisan studies ...like you said thier were many

Or even just name them ...I would very much like to read them also along with the single one you posted


If you wanna lecture me about economics get back to me when you've actually made payroll for more than 10 guys and gals week after week after week after week...and dealt with crazy government regulation ...like being forced to put regular old license plates on forklifts ...really nypd harassed my guys loading a 40 footer on the street ...simply because my loading dock had other trucks on the docks and thier was no room ...they actually pulled over the forklift coming on and off the sidewalk onto the street ...wanna fuckin talk about the police I'll give yas an earful retards ...I even had an illegal from Ecuador at one time running a measure graph with a double and roll attachment ..I stole him from a competitor...14 an hour and this is the middle of the 90s ...he was they only one I ever hired who was illegal ...the white polock who was born here doing the same job on another machine got less ...no shit

You keep callin everyone who doesnt exactly want wide open borders "just like an authoritarian leftist would bigots and supporters of the police state ....you're dead in the water there son



I grew up around many a different foriegners from all over the planet .when I got older did business with many ....nyc and london are the only two cities on earth where more languages are spoken than anywhere else ....by far ..because of corona Elmhurst has been in the news a lot

Where are the most foreign languages spoken in the united states ?....Elmhurst..its more than 100 languages btw in fact it's more than 200 ...

Ive never been a fan of the police state or the heavy hand of government and government regulations but Why you keep calling everyone bigots ,"who might be scared of foreigners",simply because they wont subscribe to your well written illogical circle of gibberish is a simplistic leftist tactic

Another simplistic leftist talking point you also threw into it ...illegals are harder workers than spoiled drug addicted white natives ....****** please

And between the both of yas
The bill of rights does not apply to any of you outside the United States
Youre not equal

You bring it to the jungles of Colombia or the desert of saudi arabia then you have a valid point

Carry on fools

 

[Gdjjr]

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." Thomas Paine

Amen!

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." Thomas Paine

Amen!

Lol amen your idiot buddy there
How is defending illegals collecting benefits from state government burrecracies fit into the libertarian movement and belief systems

Many state social service programs at thier core are anti liberty..... rules and regulations apply to all who collect ...people are wards of the state in a way .even a set of guidelines on who gets what and what qualified a person to be eligible to collect

ya know the topic of the thread is mexicans went home because they lost thier jobs and couldnt collect corona cash ...a true libertarain would be calling for the abolishment of these institutions as easily as you're calling for non regualted wide open borders free from government .

Free market starve or eat on your own for all...come back n forth across the border on your own for all ...that would make much more logical sense then repeatedly calling everyone who doesnt agree a bigot

You guys are shot and living in dreamworld