A message from a Mexican to The USA

[Deplorable Yankee]

A lot of older commies and national socialist still masquerade as middle of the roaders and libertarians .....they never broke the old habit

You want to let one billion chinese move here?

That is a straw man argument. If a billion anyone wanted to move here they would have already

iF we adopt his beliefs system, ie that the government does not have the power to limit people's movement into the country,

how many foreigners, do you think would move here, then?


And do you want that?

No wonder why he denys it lol
Without cutting off the billions in benifits they get and hammering employers theyll never stop

Cut off all social service for illegals ...many will self deport many will never bother to come ....it really is that simple to make a big dent in the illegal problem

Why do they think europe is also being over run ...almost instant benifits

It's a bad troll or he could be an older lefty

Older lefties Commies and national socialist ...some were really good at wrapping themselves in the flag,constitution, and then proceed to pass them selves off in the middle of the road.....its just like thier usual it's no big deal argument in drag
And it's not even aimed at us ...its always aimed at the normies...for a reason .
And why they ignore facts coming from us ...it really is an old leftie tactic

You'll hear the same shit outta some libertarians to
Guys like this turn millions of upon millions of americans off to libertarians
what's to talk about if they dont even wanna acknowledge a simple fact anyway ...

If you believe the B.S. you're posting about me, you should sue your brains for non-support. I've been tolerant of your bullshit to a point, but even I have limits. There is not a swinging dick on the face of this earth that really believes that I am left wing, socialist, communist or anything close. The scars on my body are constant reminders of the price I've paid for fighting the people you associate me with. The fact that your education level becomes obvious when you misspell words like denies tells me that I should strive to be more tolerant of your ignorance.

LONG before your dumb ass came along, I was manning the border. Long before you ever thought about this topic I was ghost writing articles for Lt. Col. Gordon "Jack" Mohr (US Army) in the late 1970s and 1980s. Mohr was the first American captured during the Korean Conflict. He was beaten, tortured and sentenced to death, only to escape and go on to fight and then write Army manuals on brainwashing techniques and psychopolitics. Mohr was on the Speaker's Bureau of the John Birch Society and he was a co-founder of the Militia of Georgia - as was I.

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s Mohr was keeping up with undocumented foreigners on the border and he was convinced, based on reports and intel that we were getting, that the Soviets had specially trained Cubans in Mexico, sneaking into the United States and starting sleeper cells, ready to take America down. There were the allegations of helicopters from Mexico flying over Brownsville, Texas and estimates of two million undocumented foreigners entering the United States per year. It's been four decades of me analyzing what I've read and poring over mountains of material I collected in think tanks over that time so that I know what is factual and what is outright bullshit. And I'll tell you right now, there was a time when people KNEW the extent of both my commitment to this country and the base of knowledge from which I worked. You don't. I can tell every poster right now, you don't know when a globalist, communist or lefty (you couldn't spell that one right either) puts crap in your head that you've been too ignorant to verify. So, without searching the Internet for hours, who do you think the lefties rely on for tactics and then reference where what I write takes you back to left wing propaganda? In other words, cite the sources for your allegations.

Uh boy
Really lol


Ya didnt say
"They wouldn't move here if the country was run the way I think it should be run."

What's your plan ? Let's hear it

And please dont say illegals dont use billions upon billions of social service dollars ...why not be an honest fry station guy instead

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

you tell me what's his grand plan ?

Reading is good for you.

And blaming trump for the militarization of the police is super lame and shows a biased and ignorance beyond belief

And I want you to show where anyone did as you claim above.
FYI, I've been posting Police State articles a long time- but, again, they have to be read.

I'll be nice and provide you with a source I get them from- but you have to read. I know it's difficult, but, remember, nothing worth having is easy- that includes knowledge- his articles usually have links (which require more reading) to verify his assertions.

You're welcome.

It was the police misconduct feed
Long gone
Ruined ....by loopy libertarians

Police Tactics and Misconduct

Since the 1980s the federal government has prompted the militarization of federal, state, and local law enforcement. That militarization has led not only to well‐publicized disasters, but to a widespread increase in violent law enforcement, which has played a major role in alienating Americans...

www.cato.org

I'm looking for the original creator

 

[Porter Rockwell]

A lot of older commies and national socialist still masquerade as middle of the roaders and libertarians .....they never broke the old habit

You want to let one billion chinese move here?

That is a straw man argument. If a billion anyone wanted to move here they would have already

iF we adopt his beliefs system, ie that the government does not have the power to limit people's movement into the country,

how many foreigners, do you think would move here, then?


And do you want that?

No wonder why he denys it lol
Without cutting off the billions in benifits they get and hammering employers theyll never stop

Cut off all social service for illegals ...many will self deport many will never bother to come ....it really is that simple to make a big dent in the illegal problem

Why do they think europe is also being over run ...almost instant benifits

It's a bad troll or he could be an older lefty

Older lefties Commies and national socialist ...some were really good at wrapping themselves in the flag,constitution, and then proceed to pass them selves off in the middle of the road.....its just like thier usual it's no big deal argument in drag
And it's not even aimed at us ...its always aimed at the normies...for a reason .
And why they ignore facts coming from us ...it really is an old leftie tactic

You'll hear the same shit outta some libertarians to
Guys like this turn millions of upon millions of americans off to libertarians
what's to talk about if they dont even wanna acknowledge a simple fact anyway ...

If you believe the B.S. you're posting about me, you should sue your brains for non-support. I've been tolerant of your bullshit to a point, but even I have limits. There is not a swinging dick on the face of this earth that really believes that I am left wing, socialist, communist or anything close. The scars on my body are constant reminders of the price I've paid for fighting the people you associate me with. The fact that your education level becomes obvious when you misspell words like denies tells me that I should strive to be more tolerant of your ignorance.

LONG before your dumb ass came along, I was manning the border. Long before you ever thought about this topic I was ghost writing articles for Lt. Col. Gordon "Jack" Mohr (US Army) in the late 1970s and 1980s. Mohr was the first American captured during the Korean Conflict. He was beaten, tortured and sentenced to death, only to escape and go on to fight and then write Army manuals on brainwashing techniques and psychopolitics. Mohr was on the Speaker's Bureau of the John Birch Society and he was a co-founder of the Militia of Georgia - as was I.

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s Mohr was keeping up with undocumented foreigners on the border and he was convinced, based on reports and intel that we were getting, that the Soviets had specially trained Cubans in Mexico, sneaking into the United States and starting sleeper cells, ready to take America down. There were the allegations of helicopters from Mexico flying over Brownsville, Texas and estimates of two million undocumented foreigners entering the United States per year. It's been four decades of me analyzing what I've read and poring over mountains of material I collected in think tanks over that time so that I know what is factual and what is outright bullshit. And I'll tell you right now, there was a time when people KNEW the extent of both my commitment to this country and the base of knowledge from which I worked. You don't. I can tell every poster right now, you don't know when a globalist, communist or lefty (you couldn't spell that one right either) puts crap in your head that you've been too ignorant to verify. So, without searching the Internet for hours, who do you think the lefties rely on for tactics and then reference where what I write takes you back to left wing propaganda? In other words, cite the sources for your allegations.

Uh boy
Really lol


Ya didnt say
"They wouldn't move here if the country was run the way I think it should be run."

What's you're plan ? Let's hear it

And please dont say illegals dont use billions upon billions of social service dollars ...why not be an honest fry station guy instead

What has the cost of undocumented foreigners have to do with any plan I may have? FWIW, EVERY non-partisan study has concluded that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in government benefits. It's not a great argument for the Anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters. May I give you a better argument against the flooding of America with foreigners?

Every empire that ever fell did so when the government mixed races, cultures, religions, political persuasions, sexual orientations, and creeds into one body politic. Even the Roman Empire fell for the same reasons.

You cannot understand any plan I might have without a meeting of the minds as to what problem we are trying to solve and what issues we agree or disagree on. ALL of my critics on this thread, to date, are trying guess as to what I'm about because they only understand the issue from mainstream talking points. You wouldn't get anything out of anything I say unless and until we have a meeting of the minds. You're arguing against me without knowing what I'm about and I can't tell it all to you - even in one thread because you have never heard it before... and you would be trying to answer it before you heard it. I gave one poster a point he wanted to make about an anti-immigrant law that was put into place in the 1880s.... long after all the founders / framers were dead and buried. So, what are you really afraid of?

Have you ever wondered why the patriots from the 1970s to 2005 up to the media sensation of the so - called Minutemen are unknown to virtually every person on this board? Who were the constitutionalists and patriots during that period? What court battles took place? What did the Christian Patriots do? What were their achievements? Do you even know? The primary reason you don't know is that via Hegelian Dialectics, the right was flipped by the left and took up their mantra on social issues, including the border wall. On the issue of Liberty and what would have resolved the issues, the anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters, erased most of the pro-Constitution achievements that were made from the 1970s up to the early 2000s. If I gave you their names, you'd probably come back with some concocted B.S. from the Internet that belittles and denigrates real heroes. My plan is that of my forefathers. If it ain't froke, don't bix it. That is what the anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters did and it set the cause back 50 years.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

 

[Correll]

Not that the anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters will read this, but none of them have a clue as to where I stand, personally, on this issue.

Presuming that America was a great nation, then there were some uncomfortable truths that the anti - Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters have to come to grips with. Most of their arguments have revolved around this mantra that they don't care whether you're black, white, Muslim, etc. - you can come to America provided you do so "legally." .....

When you make the argument that all people have the right to come here, then you are inviting discussion of legal vs illegal immigration.

That is your framework.


If you want to discuss the issue of legal Third World immigration, which I would be happy to do, then bring up that issue.


And, don't waster our time discussing "bigotry". Sorry, that is a dead horse.

 

[Correll]

You want to let one billion chinese move here?

Straw man worse case scenario arguments are, well, straw man arguments.

His position is that we as a people, have no right to control, who enters our territory.


Considering the likely results of a policy, is not a strawman argument.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are dishonest?

Sure. All the time.


Of course, generally, they say something like that, but rarely back it up, with like say,


telling what part of their stated position I "lied" about.

Well I proved that you lied. See my previous post.

Says the man that provided no clarification on his position.

Here's the real deal:

I've been IN this discussion for decades now. With the anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters - whatever you want to call them, they go on the attack like you did. Nobody asks questions nor for clarifications. It has been easier to believe a lie told a thousand times than a truth that was never told before. The first fact that you should know, going in, I am a constitutionalist. That being said, I'm going to start with three presuppositions. You tell me where you think I get it wrong:

1) Without a wall and without federal immigration laws, the founders / framers built the greatest nation in the annals of history

2) The terminology Make America Great Again means, at some point, America WAS great

3) During this period of becoming great there was not a wall around America; the Chinese came here to work and take advantage of opportunities willingly offered; the foreigners you fear did not pose a threat (otherwise we could not have built the Republic we have.)

Let's find out where you think I'm wrong from a factual point of view.

1. Laws were passed to limit chinese immigration.

2. The foreigners did pose a threat, steps were taken to deal with it.

3. Also, worth noting, if you want to have this type of discussion, part of it should be discussing what might have happened if we had NOT had the high levels of immigration. Assuming the results we got, were the best possible results is just not valid.

1) The first governing document of the New World was the Mayflower Compact in 1630. The first laws restricting Chinese immigration were in 1882 almost a century after the ratification of the United States Constitution. Okay so, we'll put the Chinese immigration ban back in place

2) What "threat" did the foreigners pose that you are reference to and when?

3) You final response is more of an attempt to try and be dishonest by answering questions that haven't been asked and trying to preempt any honest discussion. I don't think that foreigners coming to the United States did anything to promote the growth of the nation. It helped industrialize it, but we'd be fine to not have the level of technology we have today. I think you want to derail the discussion before it starts. Presume nothing. I'm not who or what you think I am. But I digress.

Do you know the exact reason that the Chinese were excluded from coming into the United States?

In your opinion, WHO was the government trying to protect?

So, in 1631, where the pilgrims were a few score of people starving and freezing and in danger of being wiped out from possibly hostile locals, AND, few if any chinamen, knew of their existence or location, or had any possibly way of reaching them,


since at that time, as they were struggling to live from day to day, since at that time, they did not pass laws against immigration into tiny, tiny community,


that is part of your argument as to unlimited movement being part of the package of God Given Rights?


With all due respect, that is not a convincing argument.

I've made NO argument. You started with the Chinese people. So, are we talking Chinese or immigration? I offer you an opportunity to have an honest and civil discussion based upon not doing what you just did. So, you don't have anything save of straw man arguments, B.S. allegations that a drunk monkey couldn't believe if he could understand what you said, and attempts to put words into my mouth? You are desperate.

But, for those with a tad bit more IQ than Correll, there were some laws in place in the early colonies that would lead to immigration laws. Correll is in the dark and is waiting for me to say something he can criticize because past the objective of fighting so - called "illegal aliens," he doesn't have a plan, an ultimate goal, or a vision of what America would be if he were in charge. I don't have that problem. But, I know his arguments because I was there, in the think tank, that pioneered them. I know which arguments are factual and which were political. Correll realizes that I can point out the flaws in his thinking, but he cannot find a chink in the armor of someone who does not spew left or right wing swill.

You brought up the lack of formal immigration laws from the mid 1600s, as a point against the people of the United States having the right to choose who to invite to join our society.

So, me addressing that, is not a strawman.

 

[Gdjjr]

A lot of older commies and national socialist still masquerade as middle of the roaders and libertarians .....they never broke the old habit

I wouldn't know about that- I've never been any of those. I do know though, for a fact, that derogatory commentary doesn't change any minds, though it may have an emotional appeal to fools - fools would be those who resort to personal attacks in lieu of a counter argument on the facts presented.
I am libertarian in my beliefs, and I live that way to the best of my ability. I do believe that ALL men are created equal, though it's plain not all outcomes are equal- which is not what I advocate for- if you think I do, then you can't, or don't read and respond- you look at words and react. There is a big difference.
As for national socialist, look to the alleged "alt right"- I vehemently disagree with their actions and beliefs.
I'm all about Liberty and the gov't's original intent in the constitution,as written, not interpreted. I believe in thinking for myself- that means I read a lot, to gain knowledge, and draw my own conclusion. Try it, you might like it. Or, you may not. It is your choice.

 

[Gdjjr]

The Declaration of Independence was not about equality or the equality of all mankind

Like I've said, several times, and will say til my dying breath- either you believe that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights, or you don't. If you do, you can live it. If you don't you can't live it.

If you don't believe in unalienable rights, then what do you believe?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

 

[Correll]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Not that the anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters will read this, but none of them have a clue as to where I stand, personally, on this issue.

Presuming that America was a great nation, then there were some uncomfortable truths that the anti - Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters have to come to grips with. Most of their arguments have revolved around this mantra that they don't care whether you're black, white, Muslim, etc. - you can come to America provided you do so "legally." .....

When you make the argument that all people have the right to come here, then you are inviting discussion of legal vs illegal immigration.

That is your framework.


If you want to discuss the issue of legal Third World immigration, which I would be happy to do, then bring up that issue.


And, don't waster our time discussing "bigotry". Sorry, that is a dead horse.

Here is your problem Correll:

IF Liberty is an unalienable Right, you cannot criminalize Liberty

Just because an individual has Liberty does NOT mean they have a Right nor even an obligation to become a citizen

If someone is not a citizen, they cannot affect the politics of your nation.

If you make Liberty a legal versus illegal subject, it's not long before YOUR freedom of movement and YOUR Rights to Liberty are being challenged. The right used to use this "house" analogy until I began pointing out that every guest that showed up at your door did not have to marry your daughter.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You want to let one billion chinese move here?

Straw man worse case scenario arguments are, well, straw man arguments.

His position is that we as a people, have no right to control, who enters our territory.


Considering the likely results of a policy, is not a strawman argument.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are dishonest?

Sure. All the time.


Of course, generally, they say something like that, but rarely back it up, with like say,


telling what part of their stated position I "lied" about.

Well I proved that you lied. See my previous post.

Says the man that provided no clarification on his position.

Here's the real deal:

I've been IN this discussion for decades now. With the anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters - whatever you want to call them, they go on the attack like you did. Nobody asks questions nor for clarifications. It has been easier to believe a lie told a thousand times than a truth that was never told before. The first fact that you should know, going in, I am a constitutionalist. That being said, I'm going to start with three presuppositions. You tell me where you think I get it wrong:

1) Without a wall and without federal immigration laws, the founders / framers built the greatest nation in the annals of history

2) The terminology Make America Great Again means, at some point, America WAS great

3) During this period of becoming great there was not a wall around America; the Chinese came here to work and take advantage of opportunities willingly offered; the foreigners you fear did not pose a threat (otherwise we could not have built the Republic we have.)

Let's find out where you think I'm wrong from a factual point of view.

1. Laws were passed to limit chinese immigration.

2. The foreigners did pose a threat, steps were taken to deal with it.

3. Also, worth noting, if you want to have this type of discussion, part of it should be discussing what might have happened if we had NOT had the high levels of immigration. Assuming the results we got, were the best possible results is just not valid.

1) The first governing document of the New World was the Mayflower Compact in 1630. The first laws restricting Chinese immigration were in 1882 almost a century after the ratification of the United States Constitution. Okay so, we'll put the Chinese immigration ban back in place

2) What "threat" did the foreigners pose that you are reference to and when?

3) You final response is more of an attempt to try and be dishonest by answering questions that haven't been asked and trying to preempt any honest discussion. I don't think that foreigners coming to the United States did anything to promote the growth of the nation. It helped industrialize it, but we'd be fine to not have the level of technology we have today. I think you want to derail the discussion before it starts. Presume nothing. I'm not who or what you think I am. But I digress.

Do you know the exact reason that the Chinese were excluded from coming into the United States?

In your opinion, WHO was the government trying to protect?

So, in 1631, where the pilgrims were a few score of people starving and freezing and in danger of being wiped out from possibly hostile locals, AND, few if any chinamen, knew of their existence or location, or had any possibly way of reaching them,


since at that time, as they were struggling to live from day to day, since at that time, they did not pass laws against immigration into tiny, tiny community,


that is part of your argument as to unlimited movement being part of the package of God Given Rights?


With all due respect, that is not a convincing argument.

I've made NO argument. You started with the Chinese people. So, are we talking Chinese or immigration? I offer you an opportunity to have an honest and civil discussion based upon not doing what you just did. So, you don't have anything save of straw man arguments, B.S. allegations that a drunk monkey couldn't believe if he could understand what you said, and attempts to put words into my mouth? You are desperate.

But, for those with a tad bit more IQ than Correll, there were some laws in place in the early colonies that would lead to immigration laws. Correll is in the dark and is waiting for me to say something he can criticize because past the objective of fighting so - called "illegal aliens," he doesn't have a plan, an ultimate goal, or a vision of what America would be if he were in charge. I don't have that problem. But, I know his arguments because I was there, in the think tank, that pioneered them. I know which arguments are factual and which were political. Correll realizes that I can point out the flaws in his thinking, but he cannot find a chink in the armor of someone who does not spew left or right wing swill.

You brought up the lack of formal immigration laws from the mid 1600s, as a point against the people of the United States having the right to choose who to invite to join our society.

So, me addressing that, is not a strawman.

America's greatness did not happen in one night. We got from a few colonists and the Mayflower Compact to the ratification of the United States Constitution without a wall, draconian immigration laws, and the forfeiture of our own Liberties in a vain attempt to keep foreigners from participating in the free market economy.

 

[Correll]

Not that the anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters will read this, but none of them have a clue as to where I stand, personally, on this issue.

Presuming that America was a great nation, then there were some uncomfortable truths that the anti - Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters have to come to grips with. Most of their arguments have revolved around this mantra that they don't care whether you're black, white, Muslim, etc. - you can come to America provided you do so "legally." .....

When you make the argument that all people have the right to come here, then you are inviting discussion of legal vs illegal immigration.

That is your framework.


If you want to discuss the issue of legal Third World immigration, which I would be happy to do, then bring up that issue.


And, don't waster our time discussing "bigotry". Sorry, that is a dead horse.

Here is your problem Correll:

IF Liberty is an unalienable Right, you cannot criminalize Liberty

Just because an individual has Liberty does NOT mean they have a Right nor even an obligation to become a citizen

If someone is not a citizen, they cannot affect the politics of your nation.

If you make Liberty a legal versus illegal subject, it's not long before YOUR freedom of movement and YOUR Rights to Liberty are being challenged. The right used to use this "house" analogy until I began pointing out that every guest that showed up at your door did not have to marry your daughter.

A person who moves into my community, and does not become a citizen, might not effect the POLITICS of my nation.

THey will effect EVERYTHING else from wages to culture, to crime, to diseases and bedbugs, ect ect ect.

AND, then when their kids grow up, they will be citizens and they will effect the politics of my nation too.


One can speculate on whether or not the nation that would arise in such a scenario will/would call itself "America", but it would not actually be America, not in any meaningful sense of the word.

 

[Correll]

You want to let one billion chinese move here?

Straw man worse case scenario arguments are, well, straw man arguments.

His position is that we as a people, have no right to control, who enters our territory.


Considering the likely results of a policy, is not a strawman argument.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are dishonest?

Sure. All the time.


Of course, generally, they say something like that, but rarely back it up, with like say,


telling what part of their stated position I "lied" about.

Well I proved that you lied. See my previous post.

Says the man that provided no clarification on his position.

Here's the real deal:

I've been IN this discussion for decades now. With the anti-Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters - whatever you want to call them, they go on the attack like you did. Nobody asks questions nor for clarifications. It has been easier to believe a lie told a thousand times than a truth that was never told before. The first fact that you should know, going in, I am a constitutionalist. That being said, I'm going to start with three presuppositions. You tell me where you think I get it wrong:

1) Without a wall and without federal immigration laws, the founders / framers built the greatest nation in the annals of history

2) The terminology Make America Great Again means, at some point, America WAS great

3) During this period of becoming great there was not a wall around America; the Chinese came here to work and take advantage of opportunities willingly offered; the foreigners you fear did not pose a threat (otherwise we could not have built the Republic we have.)

Let's find out where you think I'm wrong from a factual point of view.

1. Laws were passed to limit chinese immigration.

2. The foreigners did pose a threat, steps were taken to deal with it.

3. Also, worth noting, if you want to have this type of discussion, part of it should be discussing what might have happened if we had NOT had the high levels of immigration. Assuming the results we got, were the best possible results is just not valid.

1) The first governing document of the New World was the Mayflower Compact in 1630. The first laws restricting Chinese immigration were in 1882 almost a century after the ratification of the United States Constitution. Okay so, we'll put the Chinese immigration ban back in place

2) What "threat" did the foreigners pose that you are reference to and when?

3) You final response is more of an attempt to try and be dishonest by answering questions that haven't been asked and trying to preempt any honest discussion. I don't think that foreigners coming to the United States did anything to promote the growth of the nation. It helped industrialize it, but we'd be fine to not have the level of technology we have today. I think you want to derail the discussion before it starts. Presume nothing. I'm not who or what you think I am. But I digress.

Do you know the exact reason that the Chinese were excluded from coming into the United States?

In your opinion, WHO was the government trying to protect?

So, in 1631, where the pilgrims were a few score of people starving and freezing and in danger of being wiped out from possibly hostile locals, AND, few if any chinamen, knew of their existence or location, or had any possibly way of reaching them,


since at that time, as they were struggling to live from day to day, since at that time, they did not pass laws against immigration into tiny, tiny community,


that is part of your argument as to unlimited movement being part of the package of God Given Rights?


With all due respect, that is not a convincing argument.

I've made NO argument. You started with the Chinese people. So, are we talking Chinese or immigration? I offer you an opportunity to have an honest and civil discussion based upon not doing what you just did. So, you don't have anything save of straw man arguments, B.S. allegations that a drunk monkey couldn't believe if he could understand what you said, and attempts to put words into my mouth? You are desperate.

But, for those with a tad bit more IQ than Correll, there were some laws in place in the early colonies that would lead to immigration laws. Correll is in the dark and is waiting for me to say something he can criticize because past the objective of fighting so - called "illegal aliens," he doesn't have a plan, an ultimate goal, or a vision of what America would be if he were in charge. I don't have that problem. But, I know his arguments because I was there, in the think tank, that pioneered them. I know which arguments are factual and which were political. Correll realizes that I can point out the flaws in his thinking, but he cannot find a chink in the armor of someone who does not spew left or right wing swill.

You brought up the lack of formal immigration laws from the mid 1600s, as a point against the people of the United States having the right to choose who to invite to join our society.

So, me addressing that, is not a strawman.

America's greatness did not happen in one night. We got from a few colonists and the Mayflower Compact to the ratification of the United States Constitution without a wall, draconian immigration laws, and the forfeiture of our own Liberties in a vain attempt to keep foreigners from participating in the free market economy.

The lack of passing a law, does not mean that the society does not have the right to pass that law.

 

[Gdjjr]

One can speculate on whether or not the nation that would arise in such a scenario will/would call itself "America", but it would not actually be America, not in any meaningful sense of the word.

The United States is in North America, so named because of Amerigo Vespucci- The words united states is a plural, meaning more than one- simple English eludes you I see.

 

[Gdjjr]

The lack of passing a law, does not mean that the society does not have the right to pass that law.

Societies don't have rights- they have power and authority, sometimes taken sometimes granted- individuals have rights- simple English eludes you I see.

 

[Correll]

One can speculate on whether or not the nation that would arise in such a scenario will/would call itself "America", but it would not actually be America, not in any meaningful sense of the word.

The United States is in North America, so named because of Amerigo Vespucci- The words united states is a plural, meaning more than one- simple English eludes you I see.

I tend to be sloppy in my writing, as though we were talking like people.


I will continue to do that, and assume that you are person, and not a lawyer or a troll.


If, at some point, you use that to try to make a false point, against, me, I will ridicule you mercilessly as a lawyer or a troll.


That is how I roll.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Not an ounce of honesty and wrapped up in the flag

And please post some of these non partisan studies I would like links to every one or the ones ya got

I lthought the one from the general accounting office from a few years back was pretty spot on

You aren't paying anyone to be your push button monkey. I know of no GAO study; however the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office did a study wherein they made the conclusion that undocumented foreigners pay as much in taxes as they receive in benefits. It's going to be a waste of time to prove this point to you.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Instead of playing politics with you, I'm giving you your BEST arguments. In other words the above is YOUR best case scenario you can find and I'd like to quote something directly out of that study (the most favorable study done in that era that favors your position) :

"Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest. "

This study is limited to what the foreigners pay in taxes versus what they receive in benefits. In the real world - IF WE'RE BEING HONEST, that only gives part of the picture. The impact to you and I is that wealth is generated in our favor because the foreigner is more productive and produces wealth that adds to your bottom line. I'll explain simple economics to you:

Bubba pulls up to your door and gives you an estimate to do a home repair for $7500. A Mexican guy drives up and says he'll do the job for $5000. Bubba gets an extra $2500 for the job and proceeds to spend his money on junk made in China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, this gets a bit tricky, but let me simplify it for you:

You saved $2500 on the home repair, leading to your home being worth more for a smaller price. The $2500 you save means that, at a minimum* is adding to your net worth AND the bank that holds your mortgage got much richer. Banks can loan out FOUR dollars to every ONE they hold in assets. So, your $2500 in savings just became $10,000 that the bank can loan out for business expansion, home building, etc. At the end of the day, THAT is why employers hire foreign labor.

* I said at a minimum in order to make the numbers work to your favor. The reality is, according to my research:

"For those who remodel, the average payback in a home’s resale value is 56 percent of the cost of the remodel, but for those who replaced things like garage doors or windows, the payback is a much higher 75 percent. "

Here's how much your home remodel will pay you back

Here is the latest look at how much homeowners can recoup in home value from their renovation projects.

www.cnbc.com

So, I'm working the numbers to YOUR favor and not only did the bank have more money to loan out, your net worth increased substantially so that you have more money to spend later down the road. All you accomplish by overpaying to Bubba was to allow him to buy more garbage made in foreign countries. Maybe it's time you realize that Americans have to become more competitive. You need to figure out why we consume over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply, have more people in prisons than any other country on this planet, are the drug capital of the world and have half our citizenry dependent upon government for at least some portion of their livelihood. They are not going to get the jobs when foreigners are more dependable workers and produce more per hour than their American counterparts.

Bubba is an American. He did the work and got paid the market rate and used it to support his American ass and his American family.


The Mexican went home to Mexico, to the nation he was loyal to anyways.

Correll, a couple of years ago I had major surgery that took a serious bite out of me financially. Not liking to be in debt, I pay all my bills up front, which meant while rehabbing, my immediate cash was really low. You can't just tap into your IRAs, 401k money, etc. like you do your credit card.

Anyway, my water heater broke down. It was the overflow valve. So, I called a plumber. The guy comes out after being told what is wrong and that I already had the part to fix it with. The guy retreats to his van for over half an hour to deliver a "proposal" to do the job. He wanted $245. By calling him, I had agreed to his service charge, which is all an honest man should have had to pay. I told him to get the Hell off my property.

I then got on Craigslist and called someone in my area that would do odd jobs. He came over and in literally ten minutes changed out the over flow valve. All it takes is an adjustable wrench, a little bit of tape that you put on the threads of the valve and then take one out, put the other in. It can be done by a trained monkey in ten minutes. Your "market rate" is whatever the plumber can charge. And government tries to prevent competition by requiring licenses, insurance, etc. for companies as partial justification for trying to rip people off. The guy off Craigslist charged $35. It was only worth a freaking service call. The plumber was charging $1,470 an hour based on his "proposal."

Correll, in a free market economy, we pay what we can afford. Retired and disabled people, along with those in low income neighborhoods simply cannot afford your $1,470 an hour "market rate," so they engage in the free market economy and hire the person that can give them what they need at the price they can afford. BTW, an attorney I used to work with got out of the legal business and bought a plumbing repair company after paying a bill to fix a plumbing problem he had one Thanksgiving day. For many American businesses to not understand the challenges some people have living off less than $1500 a month in Socialist Security or disability, they price themselves out of the market. IF they made themselves competitive, they would not have to worry about the foreigner willing to do the same job - more productively and cheaper. What you propose is pure socialism and consumers would be prevented from having any choices in who they do business with.

 

[Correll]

The lack of passing a law, does not mean that the society does not have the right to pass that law.

Societies don't have rights- they have power and authority, sometimes taken sometimes granted- individuals have rights- simple English eludes you I see.

The people that make up the society, have the right to pass laws. Happy?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The lack of passing a law, does not mean that the society does not have the right to pass that law.

Societies don't have rights- they have power and authority, sometimes taken sometimes granted- individuals have rights- simple English eludes you I see.

When you deduce the argument of the anti Liberty / POLICE STATE / MAGA supporters on immigration down to its bare basics, you find a lot of National Socialist influence. The sad part is, they don't realize that they've been had. It reminds of some verses out of the Bible that explain their behavior:

"13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matthew 23 : 13 - 15

These proselytes are so blind that they cannot see the facts and they are too scared to engage in a real conversation - so we're all over the board.