A little light reading on torture

[Red Dawn]

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US Army Counter Insurgency Field Manual:

Abuse of detained persons is immoral, illegal, and unprofessional.

Those who engage in cruel or inhuman treatment of prisoners betray the standards of the profession of arms and U.S. laws. They are subject to punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The Geneva Conventions, as well as the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, agree on unacceptable interrogating techniques.

Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information.

No exceptional circumstances permit the use of torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment. Only personnel trained and certified to interrogate can conduct interrogations. They use legal, approved methods of convincing enemy prisoners of war and detainees to give their cooperation. Interrogation sources are detainees, including enemy prisoners of war


7-44. To the extent that the work of interrogators is indispensable to fulfilling the state's obligation to secure its citizens' lives and liberties, conducting interrogations is a moral obligation. The methods used, however, must reflect the Nation's commitment to human dignity and international humanitarian law. A commander's need for information remains valid and can be met while observing relevant regulations and ethical standards. Acting morally does not necessarily mean that leaders give up obtaining critical information. Acting morally does mean that leaders must relinquish certain methods of obtaining information, even if that decision requires Soldiers and Marines to take greater risk.


Lose Moral Legitimacy, Lose the War


During the Algerian war of independence between 1954 and 1962, French leaders decided to permit torture against suspected insurgents. Though they were aware that it was against the law and morality of war, they argued that-

This was a new form of war and these rules did not apply.
The threat the enemy represented, communism, was a great evil that justified extraordinary means.

The application of torture against insurgents was measured and nongratuitous.
This official condoning of torture on the part of French Army leadership had several negative consequences. It empowered the moral legitimacy of the opposition, undermined the French moral legitimacy, and caused internal fragmentation among serving officers that led to an unsuccessful coup attempt in 1962. In the end, failure to comply with moral and legal restrictions against torture severely undermined French efforts and contributed to their loss despite several significant military victories. Illegal and immoral activities made the counterinsurgents extremely vulnerable to enemy propaganda inside Algeria among the Muslim population, as well as in the United Nations and the French media. These actions also degraded the ethical climate throughout the French Army. France eventually recognized Algerian independence in July 1963.


US Army Counter Insurgency Manual, Chapter 7, Sections 7-42 to 7-44

 

[sealybobo]

Defenders of torture have claimed the crucial information about Padilla was tortured out of Zubaydah. Mr. Soufan writing that the timeline on that does not add up. Torture methods for use against Mr. Zubaydah, having been approved in August of 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested in May 2002, three months earlier. The timeline also fails in already dubious claim about a plot to blow up L.A.‘s Library Tower, which we have been told was discovered under interrogation with enhanced interrogation techniques that we now know the Bush administration claimed it was not using until August 2002.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Water-BoredAl-Qaida's plot to bomb the Library Tower was not worth torturing anyone over.​

More to the point here is that the timeline discrepancies highlight the unreliability of torture in securing actionable intelligence. Khalid Sheik Mohammed was captured and interrogated more than a year after the plot was claimed to be 'foiled' by his confession.

the Bush administration said in 2006 and 2007 that the Library Tower plot was broken up in February 2002 -- more than a year before Mohammed's capture in March 2003. - Media Matters

Furthermore, if the plan was thwarted or, as some intelligence experts assert, it never got beyond the planning stages before being abandoned, the torture of Mohammed constituted torture simply for the sake of torture.

Dumbass attacks by right wing Bush apologists here and elsewhere aside, the time line shoots their claims of torture breaking up ANY plot squarely in the ass.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Once again, PROVIDE evidence that water boarding was torture when we used it. Cite the law or Treaty that expressly forbid it. Failing that you have no point and no legal case.

Ohh for those not aware, medical teams were on stnadby and no one being water boarded by US operations was ever in danger of dieing or of extreme pain.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Once again, PROVIDE evidence that water boarding was torture when we used it. Cite the law or Treaty that expressly forbid it. Failing that you have no point and no legal case.

Ohh for those not aware, medical teams were on stnadby and no one being water boarded by US operations was ever in danger of dieing or of extreme pain.

See The excrement intersects the ventilator, #16

But bear in mind that US soldiers were court martialed for water-boarding prisoners during the Philippine-American war...Japanese soldiers were hung for the crime of water-boarding US soldiers...And American GI was court martialed for water-boarding a VC prisoner during the Viet Nam war. There's nothing to argue. It's settled case law...water-boarding is torture.

Now, if you have ANY definitive evidence to prove otherwise, I'd love to see it, as would some former and current JAG's, some Senators, some Representatives, and I'm sure someone from the DOJ.

You should know better Gunny.

 

[Red Dawn]

Once again, PROVIDE evidence that water boarding was torture when we used it. Cite the law or Treaty that expressly forbid it. Failing that you have no point and no legal case.

Ohh for those not aware, medical teams were on stnadby and no one being water boarded by US operations was ever in danger of dieing or of extreme pain.

See The excrement intersects the ventilator, #16

But bear in mind that US soldiers were court martialed for water-boarding prisoners during the Philippine-American war...Japanese soldiers were hung for the crime of water-boarding US soldiers...And American GI was court martialed for water-boarding a VC prisoner during the Viet Nam war. There's nothing to argue. It's settled case law...water-boarding is torture.

Now, if you have ANY definitive evidence to prove otherwise, I'd love to see it, as would some former and current JAG's, some Senators, some Representatives, and I'm sure someone from the DOJ.

You should know better Gunny.

I think his point is, that waterboarding can be humane, and fun!, if done the right way, with doctors present and all.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So you can NOT provide an actual statute or Treaty that actually says it? Thanks though for playing.

 

[Bullypulpit]

So you can NOT provide an actual statute or Treaty that actually says it? Thanks though for playing.

How many times must it be said...? IT...IS...SETTLED...CASE...LAW, in which case it doesn't need to be explicitly stated in a specific statute that water-boarding is torture. You really need to ice your groin after that stretch Gunny...you probably pulled something...I mean besides your naughty bits.

Now, since you're all in favor of water-boarding, do you support the right of Iranians to water-board American journalist, Roxana Saberi if the feel so inclined?



Do you support the right of North Korea to water-board US journalists Euna Lee and Laura Ling if they so choose?

Yes or no.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So you can NOT provide an actual statute or Treaty that actually says it? Thanks though for playing.

How many times must it be said...? IT...IS...SETTLED...CASE...LAW, in which case it doesn't need to be explicitly stated in a specific statute that water-boarding is torture. You really need to ice your groin after that stretch Gunny...you probably pulled something...I mean besides your naughty bits.

Now, since you're all in favor of water-boarding, do you support the right of Iranians to water-board American journalist, Roxana Saberi if the feel so inclined?



Do you support the right of North Korea to water-board US journalists Euna Lee and Laura Ling if they so choose?

Yes or no.[/QUOTE]

And of course you would be wrong as usual. LAWYERS researched the matter before ever writing a brief on its use. If it were supposedly established case law they would never have said it was legal to use.

As for people held in North Korea, exactly what can you do about what EVER the North Koreans decide to do to them? Meanwhile you want to protect MASS MURDERING SCUM from some mental games. Ohh it might scare them.....

Get back to me when North Korea has the same level of Medical care as we do by the way, DUMB ASS.

 

[Red Dawn]

So you can NOT provide an actual statute or Treaty that actually says it? Thanks though for playing.

How many times must it be said...? IT...IS...SETTLED...CASE...LAW, in which case it doesn't need to be explicitly stated in a specific statute that water-boarding is torture. You really need to ice your groin after that stretch Gunny...you probably pulled something...I mean besides your naughty bits.

Now, since you're all in favor of water-boarding, do you support the right of Iranians to water-board American journalist, Roxana Saberi if the feel so inclined?



Do you support the right of North Korea to water-board US journalists Euna Lee and Laura Ling if they so choose?

Yes or no.[/QUOTE]

And of course you would be wrong as usual. LAWYERS researched the matter before ever writing a brief on its use. If it were supposedly established case law they would never have said it was legal to use.

As for people held in North Korea, exactly what can you do about what EVER the North Koreans decide to do to them? Meanwhile you want to protect MASS MURDERING SCUM from some mental games. Ohh it might scare them.....

Get back to me when North Korea has the same level of Medical care as we do by the way, DUMB ASS.[/QUOTE]



so if north korea and iran had doctors present, and medical care present, you are in favor of them waterboarding american soldiers and american journalists.


you really are a piece of crap, you know that?

 

[Truthmatters]

PolitiFact | History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

I would say us executing Japansese soldiers for it after WWII would be proof our coutnry considers it unlawful behavior.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How many times must it be said...? IT...IS...SETTLED...CASE...LAW, in which case it doesn't need to be explicitly stated in a specific statute that water-boarding is torture. You really need to ice your groin after that stretch Gunny...you probably pulled something...I mean besides your naughty bits.

Now, since you're all in favor of water-boarding, do you support the right of Iranians to water-board American journalist, Roxana Saberi if the feel so inclined?



Do you support the right of North Korea to water-board US journalists Euna Lee and Laura Ling if they so choose?

Yes or no.[/quote]

And of course you would be wrong as usual. LAWYERS researched the matter before ever writing a brief on its use. If it were supposedly established case law they would never have said it was legal to use.

As for people held in North Korea, exactly what can you do about what EVER the North Koreans decide to do to them? Meanwhile you want to protect MASS MURDERING SCUM from some mental games. Ohh it might scare them.....

Get back to me when North Korea has the same level of Medical care as we do by the way, DUMB ASS.[/QUOTE]



so if north korea and iran had doctors present, and medical care present, you are in favor of them waterboarding american soldiers and american journalists.


you really are a piece of crap, you know that?[/QUOTE]

Once again RETARD, it does not matter one whit what I think others should be able to do to Americans captured by them. For example I strongly suspect lopping their heads of with rusty swords is a damn bad idea. And you want to protect the people that do that from a little inconvenience.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

PolitiFact | History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

I would say us executing Japansese soldiers for it after WWII would be proof our coutnry considers it unlawful behavior.

Ok you keep saying that go ahead prove a Japanese officer was executed JUST for water boarding and further that while water boarding all medical care was taken to prevent ACTUAL physical harm. I will wait.

 

[Bullypulpit]

PolitiFact | History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

I would say us executing Japansese soldiers for it after WWII would be proof our coutnry considers it unlawful behavior.

Ok you keep saying that go ahead prove a Japanese officer was executed JUST for water boarding and further that while water boarding all medical care was taken to prevent ACTUAL physical harm. I will wait.

In a recent journal essay, Judge Evan Wallach, a member of the U.S. Court of International Trade and an adjunct professor in the law of war, writes that the testimony from American soldiers about this form of torture was gruesome and convincing. A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps. - PolitiFact

Oh, and all the relevant laws address not just physical harm, but psychological harm as well.

Give it up Gunny...I've beaten you like a gong every time you try to take me to task here. Don't embarrass yourself any further. You're wrong and you know it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

PolitiFact | History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

I would say us executing Japansese soldiers for it after WWII would be proof our coutnry considers it unlawful behavior.

Ok you keep saying that go ahead prove a Japanese officer was executed JUST for water boarding and further that while water boarding all medical care was taken to prevent ACTUAL physical harm. I will wait.

In a recent journal essay, Judge Evan Wallach, a member of the U.S. Court of International Trade and an adjunct professor in the law of war, writes that the testimony from American soldiers about this form of torture was gruesome and convincing. A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps. - PolitiFact

Oh, and all the relevant laws address not just physical harm, but psychological harm as well.

Give it up Gunny...I've beaten you like a gong every time you try to take me to task here. Don't embarrass yourself any further. You're wrong and you know it.

All your little quote says is that some Japanese were hanged after being convicted, you have no evidence they were convicted of just water boarding, nor that the method they used was like the one we used. The only thing getting beaten around here is you and your apologist friends. Now why don't you send some cash to those poor oppressed Arab Terrorists.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Ok you keep saying that go ahead prove a Japanese officer was executed JUST for water boarding and further that while water boarding all medical care was taken to prevent ACTUAL physical harm. I will wait.

In a recent journal essay, Judge Evan Wallach, a member of the U.S. Court of International Trade and an adjunct professor in the law of war, writes that the testimony from American soldiers about this form of torture was gruesome and convincing. A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps. - PolitiFact

Oh, and all the relevant laws address not just physical harm, but psychological harm as well.

Give it up Gunny...I've beaten you like a gong every time you try to take me to task here. Don't embarrass yourself any further. You're wrong and you know it.

All your little quote says is that some Japanese were hanged after being convicted, you have no evidence they were convicted of just water boarding, nor that the method they used was like the one we used. The only thing getting beaten around here is you and your apologist friends. Now why don't you send some cash to those poor oppressed Arab Terrorists.

Keep tryin' Gunny. It's pathetic, really. You can't debate the issue so you reach for straws like this to try and shift the converation away from the topic.