Oreshnik.... unstoppable missile?

[Mushroom]

Does Russia make high quality titanium?
Or do they make Russian quality titanium?

They make titanium. Absolutely no different than titanium made anywhere else.

Just as Russian Gold is no different than any other gold. It's just... gold. No better or no worse than gold available anywhere else on the planet.

 

[Zavulon]

"Rude", as in what? It is effective in killing bad guys, and is damned near indestructible?

And you are talking gold purity, that is something completely different. Refine that 555 gold into 999 gold, it is absolutely no different than any other gold.

That brings up something important, do you actually know anything about gold? For those that do not know, 999 gold is 99% pure, or commonly called "24 karat gold". That is what is used in coins and bullion. 555 gold is also known in jewelry as "12 karat gold", the amount that is most common in jewelry. And here is the big difference, nobody uses 24 karat gold in jewelry. About the highest I have ever seen is 18 karat gold, but that is rare. A few times I have seen 16 karat gold, once again fairly rare. 14 and 12 karat are much more common. Then you have 10 and even 8 karat, largely used in better quality costume jewelry.

But here is the thing, they would all start as 24 karat gold. Ether from bullion, or reclaimed from older jewelry where it is melted down, then refined back into 24 karat gold. Then other metals, most commonly copper is then added. So that 12 karat gold ring? Is most likely 50% gold and 50% copper.

But remember in the past when I mentioned "fungibility"? Gold is gold, it does not matter what the source is. It can be South Africa, Brazil, the US, Russia, Greece, it does not matter at all. It is all the exact same thing, the "999 or 555" you brought up is simply how pure it was refined. And based on that, what the ultimate use is. 999 for electronics and bullion, 555 for jewelry. But even that 555 started as 999 before it was mixed with other metals (once again normally copper) to achieve the hardness they wanted. Because gold is damned soft, and 999 jewelry other than as a pendant is damned stupid.

Maybe I should mention that among my many jobs, one I rarely bring up is that I worked as a pawn broker for several years. And as doing such, I learned a hell of a lot about things like gold and jewelry. Of course, that is in addition to my decades of being an amateur prospector.

Maybe you should actually take a moment here, and look up a term that is rather important that I have already dropped several times. And that is "fungibility".

Fungibility: What It Means and Why It Matters

Fungibility is the interchangeability of a good or asset with other specific goods/assets of the same type. It simplifies trade and exchange processes.

www.investopedia.com

I did not just use that term lightly, it is literally true when talking about things like gold or titanium. Or steel, or copper, or Light Sweet Crude, or soybeans, or Frozen Concentrated Orange Juice, or anything else. It does not matter worth a damn where it came from, it is all the exact same thing. Then you turn right around and try to vomit in the difference between smelted purity between gold for bullion and gold primarily for jewelry. Because that is the only industry that I am aware of that even cares about or buys 555 gold. The jewelry industry, because that is what most jewelry is made out of. 12 karat gold.

Just more proof that you really have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about. You just vomit up silly propaganda, not even knowing what you are talking about even means.

Titanium per se is pretty same. But titanium alloys are different, and, as 12 karat gold and 24 karat gold have different purposes, same way different titanium alloys have different purposes. And some of them are literally Unobtanium for the USA.

Titanium alloys - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Zavulon]

They make titanium. Absolutely no different than titanium made anywhere else.

Just as Russian Gold is no different than any other gold. It's just... gold. No better or no worse than gold available anywhere else on the planet.

Gold is gold, titanium is titanium. But there is the difference between 12 karat gold and 24 karat gold, or between alpha, beta, omega titanium or between Grade I and Grade VII titanium alloys.

 

[Mushroom]

Titanium per se is pretty same. But titanium alloys are different, and, as 12 karat gold and 24 karat gold have different purposes, same way different titanium alloys have different purposes. And some of them are literally Unobtanium for the USA.

What, are you even trying to claim that they can not buy it from Canada and Australia?

BTW, the current price of titanium on the open market is around US$6 per kilogram. And FYI, that is for actual titanium. Apparently once again you do not seem to comprehend how this all works.

Just as like with copper, cold, or any other commodity, titanium is traded as a bulk pure ore. And just like with gold or anything else, it is up to the end user to turn that into an alloy. So once again, you are spouting pure nonsense. Such as it being "unobtainable", as it is regularly traded every day on the open market.

But please, give us some kind of reference of it being unavailable. Oh, there was a brief shortage early in 2023, because of the sanctions on Russia. But that was only for a couple of months, as China, Canada and Australia happily jumped in and provided all that was needed. In fact, they provided to much that the global price today is almost 1/3 of what it was when Russia invaded Ukraine. At that point, it was actually selling for US$20.89 per kilogram. But today, the current price on the International market is US$5.91 per kilogram.

And when ever have commodity prices ever plummeted like that if there is a shortage?

So come on, I have had more than enough of your babble. Give us an actual reference to back up your nonsensical claims.

Of course, I do not expect a single reference, simply more coprolite being spun that makes no sense.

 

[Mushroom]

Gold is gold, titanium is titanium. But there is the difference between 12 karat gold and 24 karat gold

WTF?

Gold is gold, all gold when it leaves a refining facility is 24 karat. Period, all gold. Does not matter where it came from, or what the purity is when it arrived at the refining facility. Once it is refined, it's all 24 karat. The difference is not in the gold itself, but for the intended end use.

You really are just talking in circles, without understanding a single thing you are saying.

 

[Zavulon]

What, are you even trying to claim that they can not buy it from Canada and Australia?

Yep. Some Titanium alloys you can't buy neither for money, nor for love.

BTW, the current price of titanium on the open market is around US$6 per kilogram. And FYI, that is for actual titanium. Apparently once again you do not seem to comprehend how this all works.

It is titanium sponge. But good lack to make even a simple titanium plate from the sponge on your kitchen.

Just as like with copper, cold, or any other commodity, titanium is traded as a bulk pure ore. And just like with gold or anything else, it is up to the end user to turn that into an alloy. So once again, you are spouting pure nonsense. Such as it being "unobtainable", as it is regularly traded every day on the open market.

Oh, man... Do you really think that Boing or Aibus actually do melting and forging titanium sponge?
There are specialised organisations for it.

Top 10 Aerospace Titanium Vendors Worldwide in 2024

Discover the top 10 aerospace titanium manufacturers and suppliers globally in 2024 that aerospace manufacturing companies can consider.

www.kingsresearch.com

But please, give us some kind of reference of it being unavailable.

You said it. You said that the USA don't have materials to make maneuvering hypersonic vechicles. And Russia has, as we see with Oreshnik missiles.

Oh, there was a brief shortage early in 2023, because of the sanctions on Russia. But that was only for a couple of months, as China, Canada and Australia happily jumped in and provided all that was needed. In fact, they provided to much that the global price today is almost 1/3 of what it was when Russia invaded Ukraine. At that point, it was actually selling for US$20.89 per kilogram. But today, the current price on the International market is US$5.91 per kilogram.

Nobody actually cares about titanium sponge. But specific titanium alloys are different.

And when ever have commodity prices ever plummeted like that if there is a shortage?

There is no shortage of titanium sponge. There is the lack of specific titanium alloys (and not only them) in the USA.

So come on, I have had more than enough of your babble. Give us an actual reference to back up your nonsensical claims.

Of course, I do not expect a single reference, simply more coprolite being spun that makes no sense.

There is Oreshnik missile. That's the fact. And it has unachievable for the USA preciseness (at its speed). Hey, you still don't even believe that it is possible. And the very existence of the missile clearly demonstrated that the USA lost hypersonic race. What kind of reference did you expect? That Russia doesn't export the new, strategically important, alloys? Or what?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yep. Some Titanium alloys you can't buy neither for money, nor for love.

It is titanium sponge. But good lack to make even a simple titanium plate from the sponge on your kitchen.

Oh, man... Do you really think that Boing or Aibus actually do melting and forging titanium sponge?
There are specialised organisations for it.

Top 10 Aerospace Titanium Vendors Worldwide in 2024

Discover the top 10 aerospace titanium manufacturers and suppliers globally in 2024 that aerospace manufacturing companies can consider.

www.kingsresearch.com

You said it. You said that the USA don't have materials to make maneuvering hypersonic vechicles. And Russia has, as we see with Oreshnik missiles.



Nobody actually cares about titanium sponge. But specific titanium alloys are different.


There is no shortage of titanium sponge. There is the lack of specific titanium alloys (and not only them) in the USA.


There is Oreshnik missile. That's the fact. And it has unachievable for the USA preciseness (at its speed). Hey, you still don't even believe that it is possible. And the very existence of the missile clearly demonstrated that the USA lost hypersonic race. What kind of reference did you expect? That Russia doesn't export the new, strategically important, alloys? Or what?

There is Oreshnik missile. That's the fact. And it has unachievable for the USA preciseness (at its speed).

Baloney.

And the very existence of the missile clearly demonstrated that the USA lost hypersonic race.

Really? How much more precise is it than US missiles? How do you know?

 

[Zavulon]

There is Oreshnik missile. That's the fact. And it has unachievable for the USA preciseness (at its speed).

Baloney.

And the very existence of the missile clearly demonstrated that the USA lost hypersonic race.

Really? How much more precise is it than US missiles? How do you know?

We put all warheads in the bull eye of a single plant. The USA can't do it. The US IRBM's derivation is tens meters, often more than one hundred meter miss from the targeting point. Of course we all still waiting independent (American) confirmation about what exactly it was precise, but I've heard (just rumours) that no one warhead had derived from the targeting point for more than one meter (three feet). It's pretty precise. Our dear friend Mushroom, who have been kept in darkness and feed with shit, still doesn't believe that it is possible.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

We put all warheads in the bull eye of a single plant. The USA can't do it. The US IRBM's derivation is tens meters, often more than one hundred meter miss from the targeting point. Of course we all still waiting independent (American) confirmation about what exactly it was precise, but I've heard (just rumours) that no one warhead had derived from the targeting point for more than one meter (three feet). It's pretty precise. Our dear friend Mushroom, who have been kept in darkness and feed with shit, still doesn't believe that it is possible.

The USA can't do it.

Why do you feel we can't?

 

[AZrailwhale]

It's not about reserves in the ground. It is more about actual capabilities to produce proper quality Titanium alloys.

Considering the state of Russia's "technology" the top four producers should easily produce more and better titanium that Russia.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Yep. Some Titanium alloys you can't buy neither for money, nor for love.

It is titanium sponge. But good lack to make even a simple titanium plate from the sponge on your kitchen.

Oh, man... Do you really think that Boing or Aibus actually do melting and forging titanium sponge?
There are specialised organisations for it.

Top 10 Aerospace Titanium Vendors Worldwide in 2024

Discover the top 10 aerospace titanium manufacturers and suppliers globally in 2024 that aerospace manufacturing companies can consider.

www.kingsresearch.com

You said it. You said that the USA don't have materials to make maneuvering hypersonic vechicles. And Russia has, as we see with Oreshnik missiles.



Nobody actually cares about titanium sponge. But specific titanium alloys are different.


There is no shortage of titanium sponge. There is the lack of specific titanium alloys (and not only them) in the USA.


There is Oreshnik missile. That's the fact. And it has unachievable for the USA preciseness (at its speed). Hey, you still don't even believe that it is possible. And the very existence of the missile clearly demonstrated that the USA lost hypersonic race. What kind of reference did you expect? That Russia doesn't export the new, strategically important, alloys? Or what?

You had ONE missile, and it was built from scavenged parts from other missiles. If Putin had more, he would be using them. You also are ignorant of the fact that the one missile cost far more than the damage it did. Just like the V-2s in WWII did.

 

[Litwin]

Read this today on X....
Any military guys here have any comment on this?


So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand this. I've done the math on the kinetic energy of the submunitions (using estimates for mass), and I've studied up on what's publicly known about these weapons so far. My conclusion? NATO is done. The west has no idea what just hit them. Russia's Oreshnik weapon system is checkmate for NATO and the USA. All U.S. aircraft carriers can be destroyed in minutes. All U.S. military bases, all underground bunkers, all ICBM launch sites, naval shipyards, etc., can be destroyed with NON-NUCLEAR kinetic energy via the Oreshnik. There are no active treaties (that I'm aware of) prohibiting this weapon system, and it doesn't destroy surrounding infrastructure or masses of civilians. It is a devastating, unstoppable surgical strike weapon that basically drops metal lightning out of the sky like Thor's Hammer or the comets of God. Nobody has any defense against it, and the range of these weapons, once mounted on intercontinental boosters, is global. The west must now either back off or go nuclear. They will probably choose to go nuclear out of desperation, be warned. Russia has just changed the course of warfare and achieved global dominance. NOBODY in the western press even has a clue. They are too stupid, too woke or too arrogant to realize what just happened. This is like playing chess with Putin and thinkin you might be competitive, then suddenly Putin's queen unleashes a flamethrower across the chess board and roasts all your pieces, setting them on fire. You thought you were playing "chess" but Putin was playing a different game called "flamethrower." It's that big of a deal.

one for sure, our «HIMARS» is a TRULY unstoppable-missile





and

 

[Mushroom]

There is Oreshnik missile. That's the fact. And it has unachievable for the USA preciseness (at its speed).

Baloney.

And the very existence of the missile clearly demonstrated that the USA lost hypersonic race.

Really? How much more precise is it than US missiles? How do you know?

The funny thing is, these are things the US actually experimented with decades ago.

Let's start with the Oreshnik. It is absolutely nothing special, just a MIRVed IRBM. Nothing special there, the US simply never took the idea of an IRBM very seriously, only ever making one (PGM-17 THOR), and discarding it back in 1960. Where it was then modified into the Delta series of launch vehicles.

Oh, and the Delta series have been launching multiple satellites from a single launch vehicle since the late 1980s. And quite literally, there is absolutely no difference between launching multiple satellites and a MIRV warhead. It is the exact same thing. So should we be impressed that Russia is only now seeming to be able to do something the US has been doing for over40 years?

And while many crow on and on about "Hypersonic Missiles", the US actually had one way back in 1958! The GAM-87 SKYBOLT. It operated at MACH 12, and both the US and UK were partners in developing it. However, it was never accepted into service and quietly retired because of the development of the POLARIS submarine missile. With the capability of a long range SLBM, the Air Force quickly realized there was simply no need or use for a hypersonic land attack missile. So yeah, should we be impressed that Russia is finally doing something the US played with, had a working system, then abandoned over 60 years ago?

Or how about the Air Launched Ballistic Missile? Once again, big freaking deal. So Russia finally made one a year or so back, once again this was something the US experimented with back in the 1950s. And once again, simply deciding once they had developed it that it was a rather silly weapon that had no real useful purpose so abandoned.

But want to know something that the US had done that neither the USSR or Russia has ever done? Launch a freaking ICBM out the back of a cargo plane. In the early 1970s, somebody in the Air Force thought up the idea of launching a Minuteman ICBM from the back of a C-5 cargo plane. Yep, not launching a short range ballistic missile or "hypersonic missile", but an actual Minuteman ICBM. And in 1974, they did it. Multiple times.



And it is actually a technology that the US regularly uses still to this day. Most of the test missiles that are intercepted in the Pacific are actually ballistic missiles launched from USAF cargo aircraft.



While the actual deployment of the target missile is not all that "sexy", at 25 seconds (and again at 1:18) into the above video you can see them releasing the target missile from the back of a C-17 cargo aircraft, almost exactly as the USAF did over half a century ago with a Minuteman missile.

So why exactly should anybody think what Russia has done in the last few years is anything even remotely "new", or that the US can not do it? They are quite literally things the US experimented with over half a century ago, and pretty much dismissed as rather pointless. And with how ineffective those weapons have been over Ukraine, that kind of proves the US was right to not bother with them.

 

[Mushroom]

You had ONE missile, and it was built from scavenged parts from other missiles. If Putin had more, he would be using them. You also are ignorant of the fact that the one missile cost far more than the damage it did. Just like the V-2s in WWII did.

And this is exactly right.

The reason why the US abandoned the idea of conventionally armed ballistic missiles all the way back in the 1950s is exactly for that reason. Even a simple ballistic missile is much more resource intensive than a conventional bomber or fighter in putting bombs on targets. And the only conventionally armed ballistic missile outside of the MLRS family was the MGM-18 LACROSSE way back in 1959. And the thing was retired in 1964. With only a 540 pound explosive payload, it was realized that it was just not an efficient technology to bother with.



The only reason the Soviets and now Russians have spent so long still developing them is that they realized they could not gain air superiority. That is the only instance where ballistic missiles make sense, as otherwise a nation would use ordinance delivered by aircraft, not much more expensive ballistic missiles.

But I find it hilarious the claims that the "US can not do" so many things that they actually did even before I was born. And I am old enough to remember watching Armstrong and Aldrin landing on the moon. The US actually did all of those things and more, and simply discarded them decades ago as a waste of time and resources.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Read this today on X....
Any military guys here have any comment on this?


So far, almost nobody in the west fully comprehends the Oreshnik weapon system just demonstrated by Russia. Hat tip to Ted Postol, Scott Ritter and Brian Berletic, the only 3 people I've found so far who fully understand this. I've done the math on the kinetic energy of the submunitions (using estimates for mass), and I've studied up on what's publicly known about these weapons so far. My conclusion? NATO is done. The west has no idea what just hit them. Russia's Oreshnik weapon system is checkmate for NATO and the USA. All U.S. aircraft carriers can be destroyed in minutes. All U.S. military bases, all underground bunkers, all ICBM launch sites, naval shipyards, etc., can be destroyed with NON-NUCLEAR kinetic energy via the Oreshnik. There are no active treaties (that I'm aware of) prohibiting this weapon system, and it doesn't destroy surrounding infrastructure or masses of civilians. It is a devastating, unstoppable surgical strike weapon that basically drops metal lightning out of the sky like Thor's Hammer or the comets of God. Nobody has any defense against it, and the range of these weapons, once mounted on intercontinental boosters, is global. The west must now either back off or go nuclear. They will probably choose to go nuclear out of desperation, be warned. Russia has just changed the course of warfare and achieved global dominance. NOBODY in the western press even has a clue. They are too stupid, too woke or too arrogant to realize what just happened. This is like playing chess with Putin and thinkin you might be competitive, then suddenly Putin's queen unleashes a flamethrower across the chess board and roasts all your pieces, setting them on fire. You thought you were playing "chess" but Putin was playing a different game called "flamethrower." It's that big of a deal.

The MIRVs from the oseshnik look to cause damage between a conventional 500 and 1,000 pound bomb from the photos. Not a particularly effective weapon.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Yep. Some Titanium alloys you can't buy neither for money, nor for love.

It is titanium sponge. But good lack to make even a simple titanium plate from the sponge on your kitchen.

Oh, man... Do you really think that Boing or Aibus actually do melting and forging titanium sponge?
There are specialised organisations for it.

Top 10 Aerospace Titanium Vendors Worldwide in 2024

Discover the top 10 aerospace titanium manufacturers and suppliers globally in 2024 that aerospace manufacturing companies can consider.

www.kingsresearch.com

You said it. You said that the USA don't have materials to make maneuvering hypersonic vechicles. And Russia has, as we see with Oreshnik missiles.



Nobody actually cares about titanium sponge. But specific titanium alloys are different.


There is no shortage of titanium sponge. There is the lack of specific titanium alloys (and not only them) in the USA.


There is Oreshnik missile. That's the fact. And it has unachievable for the USA preciseness (at its speed). Hey, you still don't even believe that it is possible. And the very existence of the missile clearly demonstrated that the USA lost hypersonic race. What kind of reference did you expect? That Russia doesn't export the new, strategically important, alloys? Or what?

We didn’t develop the technique is because we experimented with it decades ago and decided it just wasn’t cost-effective. It would be easy the put inert MIRVs on Tridents or any of the other ballast in missiles that we have in service, but why spend millions of dollars on a single shot weapons system when a F-117 or B-2 can do more damage and are reusable.

 

[Mushroom]

We didn’t develop the technique is because we experimented with it decades ago and decided it just wasn’t cost-effective. It would be easy the put inert MIRVs on Tridents or any of the other ballast in missiles that we have in service, but why spend millions of dollars on a single shot weapons system when a F-117 or B-2 can do more damage and are reusable.

Or even use cruise missiles. Which have a greater range, can be launched from more platforms, and are cheaper than ballistic missiles.

 

[Zavulon]

Or even use cruise missiles. Which have a greater range, can be launched from more platforms, and are cheaper than ballistic missiles.

But sub-sonic cruise missiles are vulnerable, and they are, you know, they are slow. But what is more important - its not about the price of missiles, or a price of its target. It is about the price of your people and your property destroyed if the enemy's missiles are not destroyed before the launch.
So, if we are talking not about another Muslim-pacification / camel-slaughtering operation, but abour a real war with an equal (or technologically superiour) adversary - good ballistic missiles are much cheaper. For good missiles you pay with money. For bad missiles you pay with your cities destroyed and millions of your citizens dead.

 

[Zavulon]

We didn’t develop the technique is because we experimented with it decades ago and decided it just wasn’t cost-effective. It would be easy the put inert MIRVs on Tridents or any of the other ballast in missiles that we have in service, but why spend millions of dollars on a single shot weapons system when a F-117 or B-2 can do more damage and are reusable.

If they thought that the age of the world wars is ended - they'd better not to expand NATO, not violate international laws and don't try to genocide Russians. And now we see that your politicians signed cheques which you military and industry can't pay.

 

[AZrailwhale]

But sub-sonic cruise missiles are vulnerable, and they are, you know, they are slow. But what is more important - its not about the price of missiles, or a price of its target. It is about the price of your people and your property destroyed if the enemy's missiles are not destroyed before the launch.
So, if we are talking not about another Muslim-pacification / camel-slaughtering operation, but abour a real war with an equal (or technologically superiour) adversary - good ballistic missiles are much cheaper. For good missiles you pay with money. For bad missiles you pay with your cities destroyed and millions of your citizens dead.

Only if you can detect and hit them. Cruise missiles are small targets and fly NOE, and modern ones are stealthy as well,