Oreshnik.... unstoppable missile?

OK, this is something completely different.

First of all, ballistic missiles do not "change speeds and change trajectories". They can't, physics simply does not allow it. And this all goes right back to what I had been saying earlier, different air defense systems are designed for different threats.

Let me break them down a bit here, see if this makes sense. And this is for missile defense not aircraft.

Glossary first: SRBM is Short Range Ballistic Missile, MRBM is Medium Range Ballistic Missile, IRBM is Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile, ICBM is Intercontinental Ballistic Missile. Not discussed here, ALBM is Air Launched Ballistic Missile (Kinzhal). ABT is "Air Breathing Threat", like a cruise missile.

First of all, every single "Ballistic Missile" has a set trajectory, fixed at launch by physics. They have no control surfaces, other than the tail fins for small corrections in the terminal phase (SRBM-MRBM). They are not aircraft, there are no radical changes in direction. They can steer the impact point by maybe a kilometer or so, nothing more. 100% of their terminal impact point was set by physics at launch, just as with a bullet when fired by a gun (or a round when fired by artillery).

PATRIOT is for SRBM and MRBM. Short and medium range missiles. A single missile, with a single warhead permanently attached as a single unit. There are no "dummy warheads". It is a one piece missile and warhead, there is no "warhead ejection" in it that allows the warhead to fall free. Think of the SCUD from Iraq.

Then you have IRBM and ICBM. Now this is a completely different animal, and PATRIOT is simply not intended to hit a threat like that. Period. In theory they can hit the warhead itself, but that is like the "last act of defiance" cartoon of the mouse flipping off the hawk as it stoops. IRBMs and ICBMs are intended to operate in a MIRV configuration, and eject multiple warheads. And we have missiles that are designed to intercept those, but it is not PATRIOT.

And in those cases, we have THAAD, the Navy's SM series, and GBI. And those operate not by hitting the warheads themselves, but by hitting the missile before it ejects their warheads. It does not matter how many decoys and warheads a missile has, if it is intercepted before they are ejected.

This is why I kept talking earlier about the differences between SRBM, MRBM, and IRBM/ICBM. Each and every one of those operate very differently. And you need to intercept them in different ways. Specifically, in different stages of their flight. PATRIOT simply does not work against the latter two, the range is too short and it would hit too late in their trajectory. THAAD is intended for the latter threats to intercept right as it is about to MIRV, so has a good chance of intercept. SM and GBI are intended to hit it long before it MIRVs, when it is still a single unit therefore destroying it long before it gets to the target.

This is not a criticism, I realize that most people really do not know the differences between the various missiles and interceptors, let alone what works against what and in what phase of flight. Which is why I spend time trying to be specific in regards to the actual missiles themselves. Most people would have no idea what the difference is between an MRBM (Pershing II) and an IRBM (Oreshnik). But to me, the difference is like night and day. Almost everything about them is so different, that to me it is like talking about a Yugo and a long distance passenger bus.

Now, when it comes to missiles that are "maneuverable", that is actually not a ballistic missile at all, but an ABT. Yes, an ABT can indeed change speeds and change courses. Of course, they are also generally aircraft, simply stupid suicide aircraft. And they have wings and other control surfaces along with an active engine that allows them to do such things. The speed of a ballistic missile was locked in when it was launched, set by altitude, angle of flight and speed. And not a damned thing is going to change that until it impacts. But an ABT (TOMAHAWK) has a jet engine and wings, and in theory can be programmed before launch to speed up or slow down. Or to make turns and changes in direction, just like any other aircraft. A ballistic missile? You can change the speed and direction about as easily as you can change the speed and direction of a rock you throw up in the air. Physics and gravity have already determined where it is going to hit, based on the speed and angle you threw it in. The small tail fins can make a minor change, but that is all. It is not going to be zipping back and forth like a fighter jet.

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There are the tailfins of a SCUD. How much "bite" on the air do you think they get at MACH 5? Especially as at that point, it is entirely in freefall and is under no power at all. Those fins are only good for absolutely minor changes, as in a kilometer or so on an SRBM-MRBM. Between hitting one side of a sports stadium as opposed to the other side of a sports stadium. Not in changing the trajectory to impact a location 20 miles away.
You forget to tell about gliders and airbreathing hypersonic missiles.

What is even more important, the limitations of the maneuvering capabilities of the high-speed reentry vehicles (kilometer or so) is not a law of phisics, its just result of the current limitations of the construction materials and engineering. Your construction materials and your engineering. It is not "impossible" it's just "difficult". Better materials and better engineering means better maneuvering capabilities on the higher speeds. And the Russians achieved success a bit earlier.
 
You forget to tell about gliders and airbreathing hypersonic missiles.

"Gliders", another name for a slightly smart bomb with wings. Well, as that is not a missile, why should I have discussed it with missiles?

And sorry, "Airbreathing hypersonic missiles"? Sure, I can talk about that real fast.

There is no such thing.

There, are you happy? I discussed it. Anything else nonsensical that I should bring up?

Oh, here, let me make you happy. I will discuss glide bombs some more.

First off, they are nothing new at all. The Germans started to experiment with them in World War I, and improved the designs even more in WWII. They even damaged the Italian battleships Italia and Roma with glide bombs. Even starting to put rocket motors on them, in a way turning them into a crude missile. The US started to use them in the 1960s, and has used them in Vietnam and in every conflict since. However, for the US this use was to precision deliver large bombs onto a target. Like the AGM-154 JSOW, which is largely an unpowered TOMAHAWK in capabilities. Or the GBU-44 Viper Strike. Which gives a point attack capability to drones and the AC-130.

Or, there is what Russia has done in the last year or so. Strapped fins and crude wings onto 40 year old dumb bombs, and pretty much recreating what Germany was doing 70 years ago. Because they now almost never actually fly their fighters and bombers over Ukraine or even close to the front lines. So they have fallen back on using stand-off weapons or else they would lose their fighters to Ukrainian SAMs. There is a huge difference between a JSOW, and what Russia is using.

Here, this is a JSOW:

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Here is a Russian glide bomb:

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As one can see, the former is a modern ordinance, very sophisticated and with the capabilities one would expect to see in a major nation. The latter, that is a crude work-around that has been strapped onto a dumb bomb that was likely already sitting in an ammo depot somewhere when East Germany fell.

There, are you happy? I've now talked about "Gliders".
 
What is even more important, the limitations of the maneuvering capabilities of the high-speed reentry vehicles (kilometer or so) is not a law of phisics, its just result of the current limitations of the construction materials and engineering.

No, it is the laws of physics.

Here is the thing about "hypersonic", you have almost no control surfaces. Period. Physics does not allow them, because of things like heat and drag. The more surface area you have, the more heat is built up.

Tell me, why have most "Hypersonic" craft all looked the same way?

lockheed-sr71-blackbird.jpg


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Notice something? Almost no control surfaces. Essentially a large engine strapped to a fuselage, with just enough surfaces to give it rudimentary lift and control. And even the SR-71 had to be primarily made with Titanium. You talk about "materials"? Well, that's just great. Unless you have a large stockpile of Unobtanium or Vibranium sitting around, I guess that is going to continue to be a problem.

This is the difference you will find with me, I only deal with facts. That "Oh, only with current materials" is hogwash, it's coprolite. It is a bullshit answer. I do not discuss some fantasy mayhe what-if in the future, I deal with actual facts. And short of these fantasy elements and the like, want to know what limits you?

Physics.

If you want to discuss specifics, I can discuss specifics. But you never do, you throw out some vague innuendo, and think that is supposed to mean something. It does not.
 
No, it is the laws of physics.

Here is the thing about "hypersonic", you have almost no control surfaces. Period. Physics does not allow them, because of things like heat and drag. The more surface area you have, the more heat is built up.

Tell me, why have most "Hypersonic" craft all looked the same way?

lockheed-sr71-blackbird.jpg


151002-F-IO108-013.JPG


Notice something? Almost no control surfaces. Essentially a large engine strapped to a fuselage, with just enough surfaces to give it rudimentary lift and control. And even the SR-71 had to be primarily made with Titanium. You talk about "materials"? Well, that's just great. Unless you have a large stockpile of Unobtanium or Vibranium sitting around, I guess that is going to continue to be a problem.

This is the difference you will find with me, I only deal with facts. That "Oh, only with current materials" is hogwash, it's coprolite. It is a bullshit answer. I do not discuss some fantasy mayhe what-if in the future, I deal with actual facts. And short of these fantasy elements and the like, want to know what limits you?

Physics.

If you want to discuss specifics, I can discuss specifics. But you never do, you throw out some vague innuendo, and think that is supposed to mean something. It does not.
Yeah. Titanium for SR-71 was bought in Russia, as you, I'm sure, know. The USA didn't have enough quantities of the good quality titanium alloys to make them by themselves in time. Now they still buy titanium in Russia, but also they don't have enough of the modern heat-proof materials. Russia has. That's why Russia produce Zircon missiles and Oreshnik missiles. And that's why Russia put all warheads precisely in their targets inside Yuzmash bulleye, and that's why American engineers still didn't reported about "obsolete Russian technology".
May be, it's not "Sputnik moment", but it definitely demostrated existence of the "hypersonic gap". ("Hypersonic" it's not just about speed, it's about maneuvering and guiding and communicating capabilities on this speed).
 
As the director of Kurchatov Institute said:
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"We have created hypersonic weapons in a short time, and this is a material that used to work at 1.5 thousand degrees, then at 1.8 thousand, and these [missiles] — at 2 thousand. And we did it, but the other [states] did not. <...> Today the next step is 2.5—3 thousand degrees"
According to Kovalchuk, this speed is explained the fact that Russia is one of the five leaders in this field. He expressed the opinion that in the process of further research, the country will again be able to obtain new types of weapons and materials.
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Unless you have a large stockpile of Unobtanium or Vibranium sitting around, I guess that is going to continue to be a problem.
And yes, technically even Titanium was (and, may be, still is) Unobtanium for the USA.
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During the development of a spy plane by Clarence "Kelly" Johnson's skunkworks at Lockheed, aerospace engineers referred to titanium, which at that time was controlled by the Soviets, as unobtainium. Unobtainium is a word used to represent materials that are either nonexistent, extremely rare or excessively expensive.
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And yes, technically even Titanium was (and, may be, still is) Unobtanium for the USA.
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During the development of a spy plane by Clarence "Kelly" Johnson's skunkworks at Lockheed, aerospace engineers referred to titanium, which at that time was controlled by the Soviets, as unobtainium. Unobtainium is a word used to represent materials that are either nonexistent, extremely rare or excessively expensive.
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Russia isn't even the top ten countries of the world for titanium reserves. Five of the ten are in countries very friendly to the USA, two of the others are somewhat friendly and the remaining three, China, Mozambique and South Africa are unfriendly to the USA.
 
That's why Russia produce Zircon missiles and Oreshnik missiles.

Despite claims of hitting MACH 9, there is zero evidence that the Zircon can reach speeds past MACH 4.5. Therefore not "hypersonic".

And the Oreshnik is an IRBM, not an "air breathing hypersonic missile". But by definition, all ballistic missiles are "hypersonic", that is simply how ballistic trajectories work.
 
Russia isn't even the top ten countries of the world for titanium reserves. Five of the ten are in countries very friendly to the USA, two of the others are somewhat friendly and the remaining three, China, Mozambique and South Africa are unfriendly to the USA.
It's not about reserves in the ground. It is more about actual capabilities to produce proper quality Titanium alloys.
 
Despite claims of hitting MACH 9, there is zero evidence that the Zircon can reach speeds past MACH 4.5. Therefore not "hypersonic".

And the Oreshnik is an IRBM, not an "air breathing hypersonic missile". But by definition, all ballistic missiles are "hypersonic", that is simply how ballistic trajectories work.
As I said its not just about the speed. It's more about achieving maneuvering, communicating and guiding capabilities on this speed.
 
Despite claims of hitting MACH 9, there is zero evidence that the Zircon can reach speeds past MACH 4.5. Therefore not "hypersonic".
Ok. Let's wait until one of those Zirkon missiles hit one of US carriers. But after this demonstration the price of peace for the USA will be higher (may be not only East and North Europe, but Central Europe either).
 
And yes, technically even Titanium was (and, may be, still is) Unobtanium for the USA.
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During the development of a spy plane by Clarence "Kelly" Johnson's skunkworks at Lockheed, aerospace engineers referred to titanium, which at that time was controlled by the Soviets, as unobtainium. Unobtainium is a word used to represent materials that are either nonexistent, extremely rare or excessively expensive.
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That was then, this is now.

At that time, the Soviet Union was the largest producer of Titanium. It was very rare, kinda like cinnamon was in the Middle Ages.

But in the decades since then? It is freaking everywhere! They even make freaking golf clubs out of it, titanium has not been "special" for many decades.

In fact, Russia is not even in the top 10 manufacturers of Titanium. And you think the US can't get it? The number 2 and 4 producers of Titanium now are Australia and Canada.

"Still is"? Your propaganda is so bad that it's stuck in the freaking 1960s.

Want some titanium cookware?


How about some titanium eyeglass frames?


Titanium dentures, anybody?


And of course the ever-popular titanium golf clubs.

 
That was then, this is now.

At that time, the Soviet Union was the largest producer of Titanium. It was very rare, kinda like cinnamon was in the Middle Ages.

But in the decades since then? It is freaking everywhere! They even make freaking golf clubs out of it, titanium has not been "special" for many decades.

In fact, Russia is not even in the top 10 manufacturers of Titanium. And you think the US can't get it? The number 2 and 4 producers of Titanium now are Australia and Canada.

"Still is"? Your propaganda is so bad that it's stuck in the freaking 1960s.

Want some titanium cookware?


How about some titanium eyeglass frames?


Titanium dentures, anybody?


And of course the ever-popular titanium golf clubs.

Yes. Titanium is quite common novadays. But you still can't produce enough of good quality Titanium by yourself (including Australia and Canada). That's why VSMPO-AVISMA is not under sanctions.
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The titanium firm, VSMPO-AVISMA, has not been placed under sanctions by the United States or the European Union despite being partly owned by Rostec, a defense conglomerate that owns hundreds of companies and is under U.S. and European sanctions.
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Say nothing about developing and manufacturing the new materials. Techological and industrial degradation of the USA and EU is the fact.
The future is coming and you are not a part of it. Sad, but true.
 
Let's wait until one of those Zirkon missiles hit one of US carriers.

Right! From what, exactly? It seems like the Russian Navy in the last year or so has largely been turned into submarines. Even the cruisers.

You are aware that nobody has been scared of the Russian Navy in over three decades, right? It is a complete and utter joke, and is even a fraction of the power of the PLAN. Falling somewhere between the Internationally recognized naval powers of China and Indonesia.

However, the Russian Navy and ships based on their designs do have great potentials as artificial reefs.

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Right! From what, exactly? It seems like the Russian Navy in the last year or so has largely been turned into submarines. Even the cruisers.

You are aware that nobody has been scared of the Russian Navy in over three decades, right? It is a complete and utter joke, and is even a fraction of the power of the PLAN. Falling somewhere between the Internationally recognized naval powers of China and Indonesia.

However, the Russian Navy and ships based on their designs do have great potentials as artificial reefs.

220505-moskva-ship-sink-jm-1625-228284.jpg


fff1a8a837df120413c1465df9eeea38bfb81b8d.jpg


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As I said - we'll see. Just make your bets and roll the dice.
 
But you still can't produce enough of good quality Titanium by yourself (including Australia and Canada).

Uhhh, bullshit.

The titanium used in the A-10 primarily came from Canada. And "good quality titanium"? You are aware that is a nonsensical statement, right? It is like trying to claim gold from one location is higher quality than another. Just like gold, titanium is a fungible metal. As normal, you are simply spinning nonsensical propaganda.
 
Uhhh, bullshit.

The titanium used in the A-10 primarily came from Canada. And "good quality titanium"? You are aware that is a nonsensical statement, right? It is like trying to claim gold from one location is higher quality than another. Just like gold, titanium is a fungible metal. As normal, you are simply spinning nonsensical propaganda.
A-10 is a pretty rude thing, you know. And gold with finess 999 is more valuable than gold with finess 555.
Titanium is quite common metal in nature. The problem is to refine it and make proper quality Titanium alloys. One quality is necessary for making plates, another - to make medical implants and very specific alloys are necessary to make a good aircraft.
 
A-10 is a pretty rude thing, you know. And gold with finess 999 is more valuable than gold with finess 555.
Titanium is quite common metal in nature. The problem is to refine it and make proper quality Titanium alloys. One quality is necessary for making plates, another - to make medical implants and very specific alloys are necessary to make a good aircraft.

Does Russia make high quality titanium?
Or do they make Russian quality titanium?
 
A-10 is a pretty rude thing, you know. And gold with finess 999 is more valuable than gold with finess 555.

"Rude", as in what? It is effective in killing bad guys, and is damned near indestructible?

And you are talking gold purity, that is something completely different. Refine that 555 gold into 999 gold, it is absolutely no different than any other gold.

That brings up something important, do you actually know anything about gold? For those that do not know, 999 gold is 99% pure, or commonly called "24 karat gold". That is what is used in coins and bullion. 555 gold is also known in jewelry as "12 karat gold", the amount that is most common in jewelry. And here is the big difference, nobody uses 24 karat gold in jewelry. About the highest I have ever seen is 18 karat gold, but that is rare. A few times I have seen 16 karat gold, once again fairly rare. 14 and 12 karat are much more common. Then you have 10 and even 8 karat, largely used in better quality costume jewelry.

But here is the thing, they would all start as 24 karat gold. Ether from bullion, or reclaimed from older jewelry where it is melted down, then refined back into 24 karat gold. Then other metals, most commonly copper is then added. So that 12 karat gold ring? Is most likely 50% gold and 50% copper.

But remember in the past when I mentioned "fungibility"? Gold is gold, it does not matter what the source is. It can be South Africa, Brazil, the US, Russia, Greece, it does not matter at all. It is all the exact same thing, the "999 or 555" you brought up is simply how pure it was refined. And based on that, what the ultimate use is. 999 for electronics and bullion, 555 for jewelry. But even that 555 started as 999 before it was mixed with other metals (once again normally copper) to achieve the hardness they wanted. Because gold is damned soft, and 999 jewelry other than as a pendant is damned stupid.

Maybe I should mention that among my many jobs, one I rarely bring up is that I worked as a pawn broker for several years. And as doing such, I learned a hell of a lot about things like gold and jewelry. Of course, that is in addition to my decades of being an amateur prospector.

Maybe you should actually take a moment here, and look up a term that is rather important that I have already dropped several times. And that is "fungibility".

Fungibility implies that two things are identical in specification. Individual units can be mutually substituted. Specific grades of commodities such as No. 2 yellow corn are fungible because it does not matter where the corn was grown. All corn that's designated as No. 2 yellow corn is worth the same amount. Commodities, common shares, options, and dollar bills are all examples of fungible goods.

I did not just use that term lightly, it is literally true when talking about things like gold or titanium. Or steel, or copper, or Light Sweet Crude, or soybeans, or Frozen Concentrated Orange Juice, or anything else. It does not matter worth a damn where it came from, it is all the exact same thing. Then you turn right around and try to vomit in the difference between smelted purity between gold for bullion and gold primarily for jewelry. Because that is the only industry that I am aware of that even cares about or buys 555 gold. The jewelry industry, because that is what most jewelry is made out of. 12 karat gold.

Just more proof that you really have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about. You just vomit up silly propaganda, not even knowing what you are talking about even means.
 
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