Zone1 A Brief Look at Blacks and Jews in America(take 2)

[BlackSand]

Your mother sounds like she was a very wise lady.

My family is definitely an "interesting" family.

At times I feel that they have been a little too pampered for their own good, and admittedly, I've enabled them to be that way through my own actions on occasion. But overall, they've all graduated from college and have obtained good jobs. I worry at times how they will handle adversity when they experience it, but when that time arrives we will see.

My father was an educator, and finished his career as a school superintendent in northern California, so he always stressed the value of education, since it was his ticket out of living in poverty in segregated Kansas.

His dying request of me was to take care of my mother, and to ensure that my own children graduated from college.

I'm fortunate that both of those requests have been fullfilled.

.

I am so glad you had the opportunity have that kind of relationship and respect for your father.
My mother was the smart one ... My dad was the wise and smart one ... Some of that rubbed off on Mom.

He was in no way an abusive or cruel man ... But he didn't talk much, and when he did, everyone listened.
When he dropped knowledge and wisdom on us ... He was not compassionate ... It came at you hard, bare-knuckled and absent any sugarcoating.

He was still always the Rock and the Glue.

To get back to some of the topic ...
My parents taught us how to be independent and succeed at our goals ...
And it comes back to me in the words of my father, never spared at any opportunity ...

"When you fail, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Get back up and get to it, because no one else is required to assist you."

It's not Justice for everyone ... It's not Fair when measured against the atrocities of the past, nor does it correct governance or systemic problems.
At the same time, it eliminates the ability to retreat to a perpetual excuse for failure.

I honestly don't know how we will ever get past that in a Modern Society that as a whole promotes the Past over the Future.
We can learn from our Past, but it serves no purpose until it provides the Vision necessary to advance towards a better Future.

As people become defensive and fight about it ... Nothing really changes, and we are going nowhere.

.​

 

[katsteve2012]

.

I am so glad you had the opportunity have that kind of relationship and respect for your father.
My mother was the smart one ... My dad was the wise and smart one ... Some of that rubbed off on Mom.

He was in no way an abusive or cruel man ... But he didn't talk much, and when he did, everyone listened.
When he dropped knowledge and wisdom on us ... He was not compassionate ... It came at you hard, bare-knuckled and absent any sugarcoating.

He was still always the Rock and the Glue.

To get back to some of the topic ...
My parents taught us how to be independent and succeed at our goals ...
And it comes back to me in the words of my father, never spared at any opportunity ...

"When you fail, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Get back up and get to it, because no one else is required to assist you."

It's not Justice for everyone ... It's not Fair when measured against the atrocities of the past, nor does it correct governance or systemic problems.
At the same time, it eliminates the ability to retreat to a perpetual excuse for failure.

I honestly don't know how we will ever get past that in a Modern Society that as a whole promotes the Past over the Future.
We can learn from our Past, but it serves no purpose until it provides the Vision necessary to advance towards a better Future.

As people become defensive and fight about it ... Nothing really changes, and we are going nowhere.

.​

Good points. The only way is to judge each person individually as opposed to believing that they are representative of a collective.

Before I retired, I used to travel to Boston for meetings on a quarterly basis.

One experience that I had there stands out as a negative memory.

I had reservations to stay at a Hyatt Regency hotel located near the Hynnes Convention center and my admin assistant made reservations for me and a colleague well in advance.

When I arrived and tried to check in, I was told by a very rude desk clerk that there was no record of my reservation and that the hotel was completely booked.

This was in the winter, and it was snowing, so I wasn't sure what to do.

When my colleague(who happened to be white and is also a friend to this day)arrived I pulled him aside and told him what happened.

Obviously he was angry, so he walked up to the desk, and gave them a different name than his own, and was also told that there was no record of his reservation. The difference is that he was told, "No problem, we can get you a room".

He then took out his identification and showed it to the same desk clerk.

He then asked him how they could possibly not find my reservation, when both reservations were made at the same time. Of course the desk clerk claimed it was a "mistake"

It goes without saying that I ended up getting an upgraded room at no charge. My colleague wanted to pursue it further, but I declined to because I just wanted to take care of my business, get out of Boston and go home.

It was hard to believe that actually happened in 2010, but it was a reminder that while things have changed, there is still a long way to go.

 

[BlackSand]

It was hard to believe that actually happened in 2010, but it was a reminder that while things have changed, there is still a long way to go.

.

Sorry to hear that, and I would have pursued it further, although I can understand why you may have not.

I could give you an example of how the same thing happens to all of us, although the discriminatory reasons may vary ...
But that's not necessary for me to understand why what happened to you impacted you the way it did.

If I am going to say anything ... Pursue it as far as possible in the future.
Do not be offended or ugly ... Be prepared to make a case that simply states it is unacceptable behavior,
Will not be tolerated ... And there is no excuse for it.

Put it on them and don't allow them to turn it back on you.
If we choose not to pursue these things, we cannot drag them kicking and screaming into the Future ...

.​

 

[AZrailwhale]

Good points. The only way is to judge each person individually as opposed to believing that they are representative of a collective.

Before I retired, I used to travel to Boston for meetings on a quarterly basis.

One experience that I had there stands out as a negative memory.

I had reservations to stay at a Hyatt Regency hotel located near the Hynnes Convention center and my admin assistant made reservations for me and a colleague well in advance.

When I arrived and tried to check in, I was told by a very rude desk clerk that there was no record of my reservation and that the hotel was completely booked.

This was in the winter, and it was snowing, so I wasn't sure what to do.

When my colleague(who happened to be white and is also a friend to this day)arrived I pulled him aside and told him what happened.

Obviously he was angry, so he walked up to the desk, and gave them a different name than his own, and was also told that there was no record of his reservation. The difference is that he was told, "No problem, we can get you a room".

He then took out his identification and showed it to the same desk clerk.

He then asked him how they could possibly not find my reservation, when both reservations were made at the same time. Of course the desk clerk claimed it was a "mistake"

It goes without saying that I ended up getting an upgraded room at no charge. My colleague wanted to pursue it further, but I declined to because I just wanted to take care of my business, get out of Boston and go home.

It was hard to believe that actually happened in 2010, but it was a reminder that while things have changed, there is still a long way to go.

You should have made an issue of it. That kind of conduct is inexcusable and I'm sure was contrary to Hyatt policy.

 

[katsteve2012]

You should have made an issue of it. That kind of conduct is inexcusable and I'm sure was contrary to Hyatt policy.

My former colleague that I was there with still says to this day that I should have pursued it further.

Of course it was contrary to their policy, and I've stayed at Hyatts all over America and never had anything like that happen before, which is mainly why I didn't pursue it any further. I made more trips to Boston after that incident, but I refused to ever go back to that hotel again.

 

[AZrailwhale]

My colleague that I was there with still says to this day that I should have pursued it further.

Of course it was contrary to their policy, and I've stayed at Hyatts all over America and neve had anything like that happen before, which is mainly why I didn't pursue it any further. I made more trips to Boston after that incident, but I refused to ever go back to that hotel again.

Well voting with your wallet is a response, but it doesn't correct the behavior of the racist desk clerk. Everyone needs to belabor the point that that kind of prejudice isn't acceptable.

 

[katsteve2012]

Well voting with your wallet is a response, but it doesn't correct the behavior of the racist desk clerk. Everyone needs to belabor the point that that kind of prejudice isn't acceptable.

Agreed. If I were to encounter a similar situation today, I would definitely make an issue about it.

 

[IM2]

In my lifetime, it was perfectly legal, and common, to refuse to hire, or sell or rent property to a Jew.

Up until the 90s, many hotels and clubs in America were restricted to people with Jewish sounding surnames.

In your lifetime there are white Jews practicing racism against blacks. Within the Jewish faith there are white Jews that are racist against blacks. We have seen this here with several posters namely Azog and Lisa. You have dismissed racism against blacks yourself at times. The comment I responded to is an example of your dismissal of the racism blacks face. To say or imply that we use racism to cover for lack of success is a classic racist line which ignore thiscexperience Jews had that was denied to blacks:

"Anthropologist Karen Brodkin, in her book, How Jews Became White Folks,” writes that in the early 20th century, there were gradations of whiteness that corresponded to class. While not all American Jews are white skinned, white Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of American Jewry. Ashkenazi Jewish immigrants, as well as immigrants from Poland and Ireland, were all considered to be “lesser whites” because of their more menial professions. But after World War II, the American government enacted a series of programs that disproportionately benefited white-skinned European immigrants over African Americans. As Jewish immigrants and their children climbed the economic ladder during the ‘40s, ‘50s and ‘60s, they joined protestant America in the white middle class (despite remnants of institutionalized anti-Semitism)."

Jews, white privilege and the fight against racism in America

U.S. Jews took an active part in the struggle against racism in the '60s. The events in Ferguson and Staten Island raise the question: Why isn't that the case anymore?

www.haaretz.com

"Never forget" includes getting government assistance blacks were denied which has contributed to whatever lack of success blacks have had.

"As the Jewish community in America came into its privileged whiteness in the 1960s, its previous status as victims of prejudice was fresh enough to prompt unified activism against oppression of others – namely African Americans.

With time, institutionalized anti-Semitism dissolved (although it still exists on an interpersonal level) and today, half a century later, Jews are among the most privileged groups in the United States. We have become "white elites.”

Yet, the more we have become part of the oppressive system, the less proactive we have struggled against others’ oppression. According to Pew, 64 percent of Jews believe that blacks still face “a lot of discrimination,” but our community has not made enough of an effort to combat racism."

Jews, white privilege and the fight against racism in America

U.S. Jews took an active part in the struggle against racism in the '60s. The events in Ferguson and Staten Island raise the question: Why isn't that the case anymore?

www.haaretz.com

 

[IM2]

There were many countries that maintained slavery long after it ended in the USA. The USA was one of the first countries to help suppress the slave trade and the only country to fight a war to end it within its borders.

The Haitian Revolution was a war against France by Haitian slaves. They defeated Frace thus ending slavery in Haiti. Haiti ended slavery first. The United States remade slavery with black codes and during Jim Crow with things like sharecropping and convict leasing. Convict leasing didn't end until well into the 1900's.

Convict Leasing | Themes | Slavery by Another Name | PBS

Watch experts and descendants weigh in and react to convict leasing, a system that arose as a means of eliminating the prisoner costs and increasing revenue.

www.pbs.org

 

[Lisa558]

In your lifetime there are white Jews practicing racism against blacks. Within the Jewish faith there are white Jews that are racist against blacks. We have seen this here with several posters namely Azog and Lisa. You have dismissed racism against blacks yourself at times. The comment I responded to is an example of your dismissal of the racism blacks face. To say or imply that we use racism to cover for lack of success is a classic racist line which ignore thiscexperience Jews had that was denied to blacks:

"Anthropologist Karen Brodkin, in her book, How Jews Became White Folks,” writes that in the early 20th century, there were gradations of whiteness that corresponded to class. While not all American Jews are white skinned, white Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of American Jewry. Ashkenazi Jewish immigrants, as well as immigrants from Poland and Ireland, were all considered to be “lesser whites” because of their more menial professions. But after World War II, the American government enacted a series of programs that disproportionately benefited white-skinned European immigrants over African Americans. As Jewish immigrants and their children climbed the economic ladder during the ‘40s, ‘50s and ‘60s, they joined protestant America in the white middle class (despite remnants of institutionalized anti-Semitism)."

Jews, white privilege and the fight against racism in America

U.S. Jews took an active part in the struggle against racism in the '60s. The events in Ferguson and Staten Island raise the question: Why isn't that the case anymore?

www.haaretz.com

"Never forget" includes getting government assistance blacks were denied which has contributed to whatever lack of success blacks have had.

"As the Jewish community in America came into its privileged whiteness in the 1960s, its previous status as victims of prejudice was fresh enough to prompt unified activism against oppression of others – namely African Americans.

With time, institutionalized anti-Semitism dissolved (although it still exists on an interpersonal level) and today, half a century later, Jews are among the most privileged groups in the United States. We have become "white elites.”

Yet, the more we have become part of the oppressive system, the less proactive we have struggled against others’ oppression. According to Pew, 64 percent of Jews believe that blacks still face “a lot of discrimination,” but our community has not made enough of an effort to combat racism."

Jews, white privilege and the fight against racism in America

U.S. Jews took an active part in the struggle against racism in the '60s. The events in Ferguson and Staten Island raise the question: Why isn't that the case anymore?

www.haaretz.com

I don’t know who Azog is, but you keep saying I’m a racist when I’ve said nothing racist. Pointing out pro-black favoritism, or saying that blacks are responsible for their own actions, is not racist.

1) Also, you say how there are Jewish people who are racist, but there are also blacks who are antisemitic. In fact, antisemitic attitudes are more prevalent among blacks than whites.

2) You are the one who started a thread saying that Jews - some of whom risked their very lives - to march for Civil Rights did so not out of a sense of what was right, but for selfish reasons. THAT you would start such a thread is Indicative of YOUR attitude toward Jews - you’ve already made your attitude very clear about whites, and just the other day you started another thread to dump on Asians - tells me that you shouldn’t go around accusing other people of bigotry.

3) Add in your talk about Jews having “privileged whiteness” (tell that to the Jews who were blocked from colleges due to anti-Jew quotas) tells me that you just resent everyone. And for the past two generations, blacks have has BLACK PRIVILEGE at the college admissions office.

All normal people reading your posts know who the racist is.

 

[Lisa558]

Also, isn‘t it against Zone 1 rules of civility to falsely refer to other posters with terrible accusations (for example, “racists like Lisa,” etc.) when conversing with some other poster? It’s certainly intended to inflame and not conducive to a civil discussion.

 

[IM2]

"Anthropologist Karen Brodkin, in her book, How Jews Became White Folks,” writes that in the early 20th century, there were gradations of whiteness that corresponded to class. While not all American Jews are white skinned, white Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of American Jewry. Ashkenazi Jewish immigrants, as well as immigrants from Poland and Ireland, were all considered to be “lesser whites” because of their more menial professions. But after World War II, the American government enacted a series of programs that disproportionately benefited white-skinned European immigrants over African Americans. As Jewish immigrants and their children climbed the economic ladder during the ‘40s, ‘50s and ‘60s, they joined protestant America in the white middle class (despite remnants of institutionalized anti-Semitism)."

Do you understand what this says Lisa? It says your relatives who came over here from Germany got help from the government that my father and uncles who fought to save them from Hitler, did not get.

 

[BackAgain]

"Anthropologist Karen Brodkin, in her book, How Jews Became White Folks,” writes that in the early 20th century, there were gradations of whiteness that corresponded to class. While not all American Jews are white skinned, white Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of American Jewry. Ashkenazi Jewish immigrants, as well as immigrants from Poland and Ireland, were all considered to be “lesser whites” because of their more menial professions. But after World War II, the American government enacted a series of programs that disproportionately benefited white-skinned European immigrants over African Americans. As Jewish immigrants and their children climbed the economic ladder during the ‘40s, ‘50s and ‘60s, they joined protestant America in the white middle class (despite remnants of institutionalized anti-Semitism)."

Do you understand what this says Lisa? It says your relatives who came over here from Germany got help from the government that my father and uncles who fought to save them from Hitler, did not get.

Do you realize that your sources are sketchy and that, when you make hollow and shallow points, your use of larger font doesn’t make them any better? Well, you should.

 

[Lisa558]

"Anthropologist Karen Brodkin, in her book, How Jews Became White Folks,” writes that in the early 20th century, there were gradations of whiteness that corresponded to class. While not all American Jews are white skinned, white Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of American Jewry. Ashkenazi Jewish immigrants, as well as immigrants from Poland and Ireland, were all considered to be “lesser whites” because of their more menial professions. But after World War II, the American government enacted a series of programs that disproportionately benefited white-skinned European immigrants over African Americans. As Jewish immigrants and their children climbed the economic ladder during the ‘40s, ‘50s and ‘60s, they joined protestant America in the white middle class (despite remnants of institutionalized anti-Semitism)."

Do you understand what this says Lisa? It says your relatives who came over here from Germany got help from the government that my father and uncles who fought to save them from Hitler, did not get.

The blacks in my dad’s college class got the same benefits my dad did.

And Jews helped blacks during the Civil Rights movement, and what do we get? Blacks like you making up lies about Jews, and having antisemitic attitudes 4x greater than whites.

Now, STOP ATTACKING ME. You started this entire thread as a way to dump on Jews - who stood by blacks more than any other group - simply because I am opposed to black favoritism. You are a nasty bully and driving racism. You are an embarrassment to your people.

And don’t tell me what and when and where I can post. I’m not your slave.

 

[AZrailwhale]

The Haitian Revolution was a war against France by Haitian slaves. They defeated Frace thus ending slavery in Haiti. Haiti ended slavery first. The United States remade slavery with black codes and during Jim Crow with things like sharecropping and convict leasing. Convict leasing didn't end until well into the 1900's.

Convict Leasing | Themes | Slavery by Another Name | PBS

Watch experts and descendants weigh in and react to convict leasing, a system that arose as a means of eliminating the prisoner costs and increasing revenue.

www.pbs.org

Haiti wasn't a war. It was a slave rebellion like the one Spartacus led against the Romans. The only reason it worked was that British control of the seas didn't allow the French to reinforce their few troops on the island. For some reason Haiti is a crap hole today while the Dominican Republic on the same island is doing fairly well. The per capita GDP of Haiti last year was $1,177.00. The per capita GDP of the Dominican Republic is $8,604.00, Cuba has just about the same GDP at $8,822.00. Haiti never suffered from the black codes or Jim Crow so how do you explain that?

 

[IM2]

Haiti wasn't a war. It was a slave rebellion like the one Spartacus led against the Romans. The only reason it worked was that British control of the seas didn't allow the French to reinforce their few troops on the island. For some reason Haiti is a crap hole today while the Dominican Republic on the same island is doing fairly well. The per capita GDP of Haiti last year was $1,177.00. The per capita GDP of the Dominican Republic is $8,604.00, Cuba has just about the same GDP at $8,822.00. Haiti never suffered from the black codes or Jim Crow so how do you explain that?

That's a war. And it doesn't matter how it worked. The main reason the colonist won against the british was due to help from other countries. I was not talking about what Haiti is now, I was talking about the fact that Haiti ended slavery first. Haiti is not America and you trying to ask questions in order to validate your racist beliefs about blacks won't be answered. The Dominican Republic is just as black as Haiti. So you answered your own question.

 

[AZrailwhale]

That's a war. And it doesn't matter how it worked. The main reason the colonist won against the british was due to help from other countries. I was not talking about what Haiti is now, I was talking about the fact that Haiti ended slavery first. Haiti is not America and you trying to ask questions in order to validate your racist beliefs about blacks won't be answered. The Dominican Republic is just as black as Haiti. So you answered your own question.

I don't have any racist beliefs. I've never claimed that Haiti wasn't the first country to ban slavery in the western hemisphere, I'm also aware that the people in Haiti and the DR are exactly the same.

 

[MizMolly]

this happened yesterday MizMolly
Zone1 - 'Get Out of My Neighborhood'

I didn’t deny shit still happens. We are told people as a race are bad, bullshit. Individuals are bad. We are told times haven’t changed, bullshit. I am 66 years old, not raised in a racist environment. I didn’t even witness any form of racism until I moved South when I was 17. Yes, there are still racists, always will be, and not just whites.

Man Goes On Shooting Spree To Kill White Men Who Had 'Taken From Him All His Life'

Justin Tyran Roberts, a Black man, allegedly admitted to Columbus police that he wanted to kill white men who had 'Taken From Him All His Life'

www.blackenterprise.com

 

[IM2]

The blacks in my dad’s college class got the same benefits my dad did.

And Jews helped blacks during the Civil Rights movement, and what do we get? Blacks like you making up lies about Jews, and having antisemitic attitudes 4x greater than whites.

Now, STOP ATTACKING ME. You started this entire thread as a way to dump on Jews - who stood by blacks more than any other group - simply because I am opposed to black favoritism. You are a nasty bully and driving racism. You are an embarrassment to your people.

And don’t tell me what and when and where I can post. I’m not your slave.

I told you and will continue to. Blacks did not get the same benefits as your dad no matter how many times you lie to yourself about it. The problem has been white favoritism that is so ingrained in the system that dumb whites like you think an equal chance is favoritism. Disgrace to my race? Ha! That's not what the other blacks here are saying. Driving racism? Are you crazy? All your posts are full of overt racist comments like the ones in the quote.

Blacks stood with Jews during WW2 when others whites in America didn't. My father took a bullet helping to save your grandparents from Hitler. His brother died fighting to save your grandparents from Hitler. Both my uncles on my moms side suffered from severe PTSD for the rest of their lives because they fought to save your grandparents from Hitler. So don't run your mouth to me about the civil rights movement you opposed.

You don't get to play Jewish victim and white bigot at the same time Lisa. Not in my thread. That's just something I'm not having.. I started this thread to show the complex relationship between blacks and Jews. The truth and not your glazed over bullshit where you can brag about how the Jews were with blacks during civil rights while simultaneously spewing trash that can only be described as the bigotry you whine about being called when you do it.

 

[IM2]

I didn’t deny shit still happens. We are told people as a race are bad, bullshit. Individuals are bad. We are told times haven’t changed, bullshit. I am 66 years old, not raised in a racist environment. I didn’t even witness any form of racism until I moved South when I was 17. Yes, there are still racists, always will be, and not just whites.

Man Goes On Shooting Spree To Kill White Men Who Had 'Taken From Him All His Life'

Justin Tyran Roberts, a Black man, allegedly admitted to Columbus police that he wanted to kill white men who had 'Taken From Him All His Life'

www.blackenterprise.com

Start naming laws and policies made by blacks that denied whites of opportunity. And AA is not that. Because the link you posted is about a man who is an example of what white racism can do to a person. He was broken by such racism and the feeling of helplessness led him to make a poor decision. This is akin to the woman who has been abused so much that she finally murders her husband. Without white racism there is no Justin Tyron Roberts. But in your delusion where you discount the effects of white racism because you are white and don't face it, among other problems you have, you try comparing this to white racism.