Zone1 A Brief Look at Blacks and Jews in America(take 2)

[Coyote]

Our termination of slavery was later than it should have been. Obviously. It should never have begun here. But we totes it out not that long after Britain did and before other countries did. Hell, it still exists in some places.

Except, a way, we didn’t totally do away with it. Within a couple of decades government promises were reneged on, new laws were created that while superficially “benign” effectively stripped them of many rights and freedoms.

Jim Crow Laws stemmed from antagonism toward blacks because of the civil war and the stubborn belief that the Southern slave states had been wronged.

Disagree there. The southern states had created a lifestyle and culture that depended on slave labor and a rigid caste system based on skin color that was perpetrated to justify slavery beyond what should have been it’s expiration date. That didn’t just go away with the end of slavery, it was too deeply ingrained. The sense of being “wronged” was directly tied to ending the bondage of people.

No modern day person defends that atrocious history. But it is in the past. There is no longer any legally authorized racial discrimination in this nation. There are of course still racists. There will likely long be a strain of assholes in every land.

Well….there are people here on USMB that still support segregation….

 

[Coyote]

And this was the only thing I kept telling Lisa to debunk her "we puled ourselves up by our own bootstraps after arriving on the shores of the U.S. as refugees fleeing Hitler both penniless and uneducated and then rose from poverty to affluence in 10 years and now all live successful lives.

NOT WITHOUT ASSISTANCE is that even possible, assistance that was often not available to black people, by design.

But don't tell Lisa that, she'll simply deny documented and archived history.

I think that is the key point here. During that era, there were many more avenues of both help and opportunity available to white skin then to black skin.

 

[Lisa558]

….could have been another Ahmaud Arbery.

That would have been horrible.

That said, without googling, can you name any of the many Jews killed at the Synagogue of Life in Philly and the Chabad in California by a white antisemite or any of the whites killed by the black racist at the Wisconsin parade?

In fact, now that I think about it, will the black racist who mowed down all those whites have a televised trial, like the murderers of Arbery did?

It does seem that more weight is given, and the punishment publicized, when a bigoted white kills a black than when a bigotrd white kills Jews, or a bigoted black kills whites.

 

[Lisa558]

I think that is the key point here. During that era, there were many more avenues of both help and opportunity available to white skin then to black skin.

And there were FEWER opportunities for Jews, given the roadblocks set up at colleges with their anti-Jew quotas.

In order to excuse why blacks in poverty today are failing, I see you lumped Jews in as whites, when the truth is the antisemitism was rampant. Lots of Jews moved from NY in the late 40s and early 50s to DC, where the government was willing to hire Jews. They didn’t keep complaining about the antisemites in NY who would not hire smart new college grads because they were Jews….they moved to where they could get jobs.

And by the way, there were many blacks in my dad’s college.

 

[fncceo]

That's because white Jews didn't face Jim Crow.

In my lifetime, it was perfectly legal, and common, to refuse to hire, or sell or rent property to a Jew.

Up until the 90s, many hotels and clubs in America were restricted to people with Jewish sounding surnames.

 

[IM2]

What the hell is a 'classiic racist?

Something Mike made up. His definition of racist is somebody black saying something he doesn't like.

 

[BlackSand]

And this was the only thing I kept telling Lisa to debunk her "we puled ourselves up by our own bootstraps after arriving on the shores of the U.S. as refugees fleeing Hitler both penniless and uneducated and then rose from poverty to affluence in 10 years and now all live successful lives.

NOT WITHOUT ASSISTANCE is that even possible, assistance that was often not available to black people, by design.

But don't tell Lisa that, she'll simply deny documented and archived history.

.

Seriously ... Why are you talking to me about Lisa?
What is it you think I need to understand better ...

.

​

 

[Lisa558]

.

Seriously ... Why are you talking to me about Lisa?
What is it you think I need to understand better ...

.

​

It’s just her indirect way of insulting me because she’s upset that poor, immigrant Jews were able to succeed in a single generation.

And contrary to her continued claim that blacks didn’t have opportunities available to Jews, my dad’s college in the late 40s - early 50s had black students, as well. They even had their own clubs. I have Dad’s yearbook.

 

[katsteve2012]

Because “never again” is used to push for certain political policies in regards to Israel. Not sure what you think I’m referring to.





Actually my sympathies go to both. I don’t view it as a zero sum game. It seems too many do…in order to legitimize the one you have to delegitimize the other instead of acknowledging the suffering and wrongs both have undergone and supporting both.

Agreed. Personally, I don't believe that EITHER group should be told to "get over it".

What happened to both is documented history that should be taught, however the manner in which it is taught should be based more on creating awareness of injustices of the past in order to prevent such injustices from reoccurring. I recently mentioned the Museum of Tolerance, who's purpose is to provide ongoing teaching of past atrocities in order to contribute to preventing what happened from ever happening again.

For the record, IMO Jim Crow laws were more damaging generationally than slavery because there are still numerous people living who saw it in effect and were impacted by it in various ways.

I'm one of them, and so is my own mother, as well as my in laws and a number of other older relatives.

 

[BlackSand]

Agreed. Personally, I don't believe that EITHER group should be told to "get over it".

What happened to both is documented history that should be taught, however the manner in which it is taught should be based more on creating awareness of injustices of the past in order to prevent such injustices from reoccurring. I recently mentioned the Museum of Tolerance, who's purpose is to provide ongoing teaching of past atrocities in order to contribute to preventing what happened from ever happening again.

For the record, IMO Jim Crow laws were more damaging generationally than slavery because there are still numerous people living who saw it in effect and were impacted by it in various ways.

I'm one of them, and so is my own mother, as well as my in laws and a number of other older relatives.

.

I still have a copy of the Green Book, in fairly good condition.
Yet people still think I need a better understanding.

.​

 

[katsteve2012]

.

I still have a copy of the Green Book, in fairly good condition.
Yet people still think I need a better understanding.

.​

I have a mint condition copy of one as well, that my Dad used to drive us across the country in the late 50"s.

Who specifically expects you to have a better understanding of what?

 

[BlackSand]

I have a mint condition copy of one as well, that my Dad used to drive us across the country in the late 50"s.

Who specifically expects you to have a better understanding of what?

.

People are always telling me about the effects and conditions of the Jim Crow Era.
Always expressing that I don't understand what it meant to Black people and that it is never taught.

Yet I can go to a young Black man on the street and there is a good chance they don't even know what the Green Book is.

I mean I get it ... I am what most people would consider white.
My grandparents on one side were some of the most racist People you could ever meet.
On the other side of the family, I am not entirely sure my grandparents had seen a Black person in real life until they came down to visit us for the first time.

I was raised in a household (my parents) that put an emphasis on History ... The good, bad and the ugly.
I could recognize the emphasis put on race in my grandparents, but it was not transferred through my parents.

I was also born in a state where at one point any sizeable house that was standing during the Civil War was a battlefield hospital.
The plantations are still here in one form or another, and the topics are not avoided when we take State History.

Hell ... We are a wonderful mix of Creole, African, French, Acadian, Spanish, Native American and about anything else you can think of.
The History cannot be avoided, because it is on every corner ... It's in the damn dirt ...

On a side note, I own the Green Book because I know what it is, and why it was necessary.
I share it with people who don't know what kind of impact the Era had on everyone, especially Blacks.

.​

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You target Whites, Jews and Asians so much that Hispanics are starting to feel left out.

Can't you direct some of your hatred their way, too, IM2?

 

[katsteve2012]

.

People are always telling me about the effects and conditions of the Jim Crow Era.
Always expressing that I don't understand what it meant to Black people and that it is never taught.

Yet I can go to a young Black man on the street and there is a good chance they don't even know what the Green Book is.

I mean I get it ... I am what most people would consider white.
My grandparents on one side were some of the most racist People you could ever meet.
On the other side of the family, I am not entirely sure my grandparents had seen a Black person in real life until they came down to visit us for the first time.

I was raised in a household (my parents) that put an emphasis on History ... The good, bad and the ugly.
I could recognize the emphasis put on race in my grandparents, but it was not transferred through my parents.

I was also born in a state where at one point any sizeable house that was standing during the Civil War was a battlefield hospital.
The plantations are still here in one form or another, and the topics are not avoided when we take State History.

Hell ... We are a wonderful mix of Creole, African, French, Acadian, Spanish, Native American and about anything else you can think of.
The History cannot be avoided, because it is on every corner ... It's in the damn dirt ...

On a side note, I own the Green Book because I know what it is, and why it was necessary.
I share it with people who don't know what kind of impact the Era had on everyone, especially Blacks.

.​

That's an interesting family dynamic.

There is a mix of different cultures in my own family. My daughter is married to a creole from Louisiana and my son is married to a lady from France and several of my nieces and nephews are married to Hispanic or White people.

We have Sunday dinners as a family at my house frequently, and one of my nieces actually asked me one Sunday what a Green Book was, and if I had ever heard of it, so I went to my library and got the one that I have, and showed it to her.

She was astonished that such a thing was necessary at one time, which made it clear that to an extent, some things have changed for the better.

 

[Lisa558]

.

People are always telling me about the effects and conditions of the Jim Crow Era.
Always expressing that I don't understand what it meant to Black people and that it is never taught.

Yet I can go to a young Black man on the street and there is a good chance they don't even know what the Green Book is.

I mean I get it ... I am what most people would consider white.
My grandparents on one side were some of the most racist People you could ever meet.
On the other side of the family, I am not entirely sure my grandparents had seen a Black person in real life until they came down to visit us for the first time.

I was raised in a household (my parents) that put an emphasis on History ... The good, bad and the ugly.
I could recognize the emphasis put on race in my grandparents, but it was not transferred through my parents.

I was also born in a state where at one point any sizeable house that was standing during the Civil War was a battlefield hospital.
The plantations are still here in one form or another, and the topics are not avoided when we take State History.

Hell ... We are a wonderful mix of Creole, African, French, Acadian, Spanish, Native American and about anything else you can think of.
The History cannot be avoided, because it is on every corner ... It's in the damn dirt ...

On a side note, I own the Green Book because I know what it is, and why it was necessary.
I share it with people who don't know what kind of impact the Era had on everyone, especially Blacks.

.​

Louisiana?

 

[BlackSand]

That's an interesting family dynamic.

There is a mix of different cultures in my own family. My daughter is married to a creole from Louisiana and my son is married to a lady from France and several of my nieces and nephews are married to Hispanic or White people.

We have Sunday dinners as a family at my house frequently, and one of my nieces actually asked me one Sunday what a Green Book was, and if I had ever heard of it, so I went to my library and got the one that I have, and showed it to her.

She was astonished that such a thing was necessary at one time, which made it clear that to an extent, some things have changed for the better.

.

It sounds like you have a nice family too.

I must admit that some of the insights I have are due to that fact that my mother was a Reference Librarian and Adept with Genealogy.
She knew how to find information, and my parents would vacation in places where they could visit Graveyards, Libraries and Courthouses.

They had a hobby of finding stories about our ancestors in newspapers, diaries and sometimes just talking to people.
There are so many interesting and unusual stories about my ancestors ... All the adversities, challenges, and tribulations, as well as how they handled them.

On her deathbed, I asked my mother what she learned the most in her years of covering history, and our family history ... Her response was ...
"Sweetie, our family tree is probably a lot like everyone else's ... Half the family is living under it, and the other half is hanging in it."

Figuratively speaking ... I understood what she meant.

.​

 

[BackAgain]

Except, a way, we didn’t totally do away with it. Within a couple of decades government promises were reneged on, new laws were created that while superficially “benign” effectively stripped them of many rights and freedoms.



Disagree there. The southern states had created a lifestyle and culture that depended on slave labor and a rigid caste system based on skin color that was perpetrated to justify slavery beyond what should have been it’s expiration date. That didn’t just go away with the end of slavery, it was too deeply ingrained. The sense of being “wronged” was directly tied to ending the bondage of people.



Well….there are people here on USMB that still support segregation….

I don’t buy your premises. If you’re suggesting that some subsequent laws had an effect that was (intentionally or unintentionally) discriminatory on a race basis, then I have zero opposition to correcting them as warranted. That said, SOME of the arguments about racially disparate effects of some laws (like voting laws) are, in my view, disingenuous or wholly dishonest.

Jim Crow laws were legally and morally an abomination. They have been snuffed out.

I’ll go a bit further. I have (since a particular college course I took which was a kinda long time ago) understood and accepted and believed in this: there CAN be and ARE some present day effects of past discrimination. I believe that, to a degree, these ongoing problems deserve attention even though most people alive today had nothing to do with their causes.

Finally, I agree with you that there ARE some people here at USMB who support segregation. I wonder if you realize that those folks include some black members as well as some white members? In our society, even some colleges and universities buy into segregation. I maintain that they’re all wrong.

 

[katsteve2012]

.

It sounds like you have a nice family too.

I must admit that some of the insights I have are due to that fact that my mother was a Reference Librarian and Adept with Genealogy.
She knew how to find information, and my parents would vacation in places where they could visit Graveyards, Libraries and Courthouses.

They had a hobby of finding stories about our ancestors in newspapers, diaries and sometimes just talking to people.
There are so many interesting and unusual stories about my ancestors ... All the adversities, challenges, and tribulations, as well as how they handled them.

On her deathbed, I asked my mother what she learned the most in her years of covering history, and our family history ... Her response was ...
"Sweetie, our family tree is probably a lot like everyone else's ... Half the family is living under it, and the other half is hanging in it."

.​

Your mother sounds like she was a very wise lady.

My family is definitely an "interesting" family.

At times I feel that they have been a little too pampered for their own good, and admittedly, I've enabled them to be that way through my own actions on occasion. But overall, they've all graduated from college and have obtained good jobs. I worry at times how they will handle adversity when they experience it, but when that time arrives we will see.

My father was an educator, and finished his career as a school superintendent in northern California, so he always stressed the value of education, since it was his ticket out of living in poverty in segregated Kansas.

His dying request of me was to take care of my mother, and to ensure that my own children graduated from college.

I'm fortunate that both of those requests have been fullfilled.

 

[AZrailwhale]

That's an interesting family dynamic.

There is a mix of different cultures in my own family. My daughter is married to a creole from Louisiana and my son is married to a lady from France and several of my nieces and nephews are married to Hispanic or White people.

We have Sunday dinners as a family at my house frequently, and one of my nieces actually asked me one Sunday what a Green Book was, and if I had ever heard of it, so I went to my library and got the one that I have, and showed it to her.

She was astonished that such a thing was necessary at one time, which made it clear that to an extent, some things have changed for the better.

To an extent? I'd say its day and night. There isn't any place in the US that a minority of any stripe Isn't welcome. Actual white racists are shunned and scorned by the majority of whites.

 

[katsteve2012]

To an extent? I'd say its day and night. There isn't any place in the US that a minority of any stripe Isn't welcome. Actual white racists are shunned and scorned by the majority of whites.

Yes. "to an extent". I've been to certain places as an adult where I did not feel welcomed at all.


The degree to which society appears to be different are based soley upon an individuals personal experiences.

I don't personally know the "majority" of the white population so therefore I cannot judge what the majority of them shun or scorn.