Women say some rape victims should take blame - survey (UK)

[Sherry]

I lean towards attributing the 'but for your actions' role to a female as much as a male. You climb into bed with some guy - ie, the scenario outlined in the article (and not the ridiculous fantasy dreamed up by the droolaider Contessa) then, in my female opinion, that female has placed herself in a situation whereby a guy could misinterpret the situation.

key words: but for your actions (not your dress)

If a man forces sex against the woman's will, then it's rape. But if a woman allows things to progress, even to the point of 'getting in bed' with the guy, then she must accept responsibility for her actions as well.

I think a real risk of refusing to place any responsibility on the woman's actions (not necessarily blame, but at least acknowledging she may have contributed to what happened) is that you end up with women acting damned stupid, using little to no judgement, and getting themselves into situations where rape or an assault can (and is even likely) to occur.


I hope that made sense...

It makes perfect sense to intelligent females. So you'll probably get a neg rep from Contessa.

I totally agree, it is always rape. But, as I said before it is the 'but for your actions' thing. For instance, you get into bed with some guy then change your mind, yea, it is still rape but I would be more prepared to take into account the actions of the female as well as the male in that circumstance.

There are so many variables, whether it's a one night stand or a relationship that is progressing. Things can get heated up rapidly, but what is the message?? Either stay chaste or be prepared to go all the way?? These situations are often spontaneous, and I don't think it's unreasonable to feel attracted enough to someone to even want to get naked and in bed with them, without it being assumed that it will result in full blown intercourse. Maybe some would think that is being naive and/or a tease, but it's also human nature to want to explore. I don't know, it's complicated.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well, THIS thread has turned into an utterly derailed waste of time. Thanks, Kalam. Not everyone can actually be such an incredible social burden so effortlessly.

I'm merely defending my religion. Take it up with those who began attacking it for no reason, as kuffar are apt to do.

Merely defend your religion in a thread that's actually about your religion, and stop hijacking other threads and topics.

 

[Emma]

What's the matter with you you stupid twat! NO ONE, regardless of circumstances deserves to be raped.

She didn't say or even imply that anyone deserves to be raped.

Of course no one deserves to be raped. No one deserves to be a victim of any crime. But if I were to walk down the street in a high crime area at night waving $100 bills in the air, chances are I'm going to be mugged.

My point (and I think CG's as well) isn't that the women are to blame, but they must take responsibility for their actions and avoid willingly placing themselves in risky situations. That is NOT to say that what they've done is the cause of them being assaulted/raped. It means to try using some damned common sense and stop with the naive belief that just because "no means no" that somehow that's going to protect you. It won't.

/rant

 

[goldcatt]

If a man forces sex against the woman's will, then it's rape. But if a woman allows things to progress, even to the point of 'getting in bed' with the guy, then she must accept responsibility for her actions as well.

I think a real risk of refusing to place any responsibility on the woman's actions (not necessarily blame, but at least acknowledging she may have contributed to what happened) is that you end up with women acting damned stupid, using little to no judgement, and getting themselves into situations where rape or an assault can (and is even likely) to occur.


I hope that made sense...

It makes perfect sense to intelligent females. So you'll probably get a neg rep from Contessa.

I totally agree, it is always rape. But, as I said before it is the 'but for your actions' thing. For instance, you get into bed with some guy then change your mind, yea, it is still rape but I would be more prepared to take into account the actions of the female as well as the male in that circumstance.

There are so many variables, whether it's a one night stand or a relationship that is progressing. Things can get heated up rapidly, but what is the message?? Either stay chaste or be prepared to go all the way?? These situations are often spontaneous, and I don't think it's unreasonable to feel attracted enough to someone to even want to get naked and in bed with them, without it being assumed that it will result in full blown intercourse. Maybe some would think that is being naive and/or a tease, but it's also human nature to want to explore. I don't know, it's complicated.

It is complicated. I think part of it goes back to your previous post, too. How many women think men have a harder time controlling their "urges" and are maybe giving them even unconsciously a little slack in that department? They're guys but they do still have ears and functioning brains and everything. And any man who can't or won't stop when told NO is no man, period. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are.

 

[Cecilie1200]

(The worst criminal among the Muslims is he who asks if a matter is unlawful (or not), and it becomes unlawful because of his asking about it.) It is recorded in the Sahih that the Messenger of Allah said,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Yes, I've already accepted your concession.

And everyone else has accepted you are insane.
Thanks for playing.

Enough. I've told Kalam, and now I'm telling you, since you started this with your wildly inappropriate and totally fucking unrelated attack on Muslims in the second frigging post of the thread. The topic is NOT Muslims, and it is NOT your utterly out-of-control hatred of them. The topic has become, however, your total childish self-absorption in your own issues to the exclusion of any consideration for others.

Take a pill, get some therapy, spank your inner moppet, whatever the hell it takes, but get on topic or go away.

 

[Emma]

I lean towards attributing the 'but for your actions' role to a female as much as a male. You climb into bed with some guy - ie, the scenario outlined in the article (and not the ridiculous fantasy dreamed up by the droolaider Contessa) then, in my female opinion, that female has placed herself in a situation whereby a guy could misinterpret the situation.

key words: but for your actions (not your dress)

If a man forces sex against the woman's will, then it's rape. But if a woman allows things to progress, even to the point of 'getting in bed' with the guy, then she must accept responsibility for her actions as well.

I think a real risk of refusing to place any responsibility on the woman's actions (not necessarily blame, but at least acknowledging she may have contributed to what happened) is that you end up with women acting damned stupid, using little to no judgement, and getting themselves into situations where rape or an assault can (and is even likely) to occur.


I hope that made sense...

I see what you're saying, and I agree women have to use their judgment and keep the risk in mind. On the other hand, both a woman and a man have every right to change their mind - even after hopping into the same bed. What happens if he starts to play too rough, or something else unexpected happens that makes her want to call it off? It's rather difficult to force a man, but a woman is vulnerable. Assigning blame or even "responsibility" based on them being in bed together is dangerous, if you ask me. We want rapes to be reported and prosecuted, and that means recognizing that NO means NO - regardless of the circumstances.

I have a much bigger problem with the irreponsibility of women who make false rape accusations. It doesn't get much lower than that.

I agree. I guess I'm not being clear.

As I said in the above post, it's naive to think that you can protect yourself against assault regardless of your actions by just saying no. Most men will stop; but not all.

 

[Cecilie1200]

BBC News - Women say some rape victims should take blame - survey

A majority of women believe some rape victims should take responsibility for what happened, a survey suggests.

Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility.

One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink.

The survey also found more than one in 10 people were unsure whether they would report being raped to the police, and 2% said they would definitely not do so.

The main reasons were being too embarrassed or ashamed (55%), wanting to forget it had happened (41%) and not wanting to go to court (38%).

Thoughts USMB?

And does anyone think these poll numbers would be vastly different in the U.S. or about the same?

I think it's indicative of a mindset that still exists among some women that the burden of being the responsible party still lies primarily on their shoulders, especially in regards to issues involving sex. Plus, a prevailing attitude among those same women that men have a more difficult challenge containing their sexual urges.

The burden of being the responsible party lies on EVERYONE'S shoulders as it regards their own actions. The man is responsible for his choice to have sex with the woman, regardless of her protests, but the woman is responsible if she made the choice to put herself in danger. It is ludicrous to take the position that any person should be able to behave recklessly and with a disregard for his or her own safety, and expect to remain as safe as in a mother's arms.

 

[Sherry]

It makes perfect sense to intelligent females. So you'll probably get a neg rep from Contessa.

I totally agree, it is always rape. But, as I said before it is the 'but for your actions' thing. For instance, you get into bed with some guy then change your mind, yea, it is still rape but I would be more prepared to take into account the actions of the female as well as the male in that circumstance.

There are so many variables, whether it's a one night stand or a relationship that is progressing. Things can get heated up rapidly, but what is the message?? Either stay chaste or be prepared to go all the way?? These situations are often spontaneous, and I don't think it's unreasonable to feel attracted enough to someone to even want to get naked and in bed with them, without it being assumed that it will result in full blown intercourse. Maybe some would think that is being naive and/or a tease, but it's also human nature to want to explore. I don't know, it's complicated.

It is complicated. I think part of it goes back to your previous post, too. How many women think men have a harder time controlling their "urges" and are maybe giving them even unconsciously a little slack in that department? They're guys but they do still have ears and functioning brains and everything. And any man who can't or won't stop when told NO is no man, period. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are.

Absolutely. I think when the clothes start coming off, whether or not the woman is prepared to announce at that moment exactly how far she is willing to go, a decent man will respect whatever her decision. I think most reasonable people would expect that if the woman said upfront, "I'm not sure how far I want to take this," then an honorable man's response would be, "Whatever you're comfortable with." Of course he's most likely going to be hoping and praying to go all the way, but should never assume it's a done deal.

 

[Emma]

The burden of being the responsible party lies on EVERYONE'S shoulders as it regards their own actions. The man is responsible for his choice to have sex with the woman, regardless of her protests, but the woman is responsible if she made the choice to put herself in danger. It is ludicrous to take the position that any person should be able to behave recklessly and with a disregard for his or her own safety, and expect to remain as safe as in a mother's arms.

That's what I fear is happening, that some feel no matter how they behave or what they do, that somehow 'no' will save the day. Of course 'no means no'. At the same time you have to temper that with common sense and not place yourself willingly into a risky situation. I'm not sure how to get that message across without being accused of 'blaming the victim'.

 

[goldcatt]

If a man forces sex against the woman's will, then it's rape. But if a woman allows things to progress, even to the point of 'getting in bed' with the guy, then she must accept responsibility for her actions as well.

I think a real risk of refusing to place any responsibility on the woman's actions (not necessarily blame, but at least acknowledging she may have contributed to what happened) is that you end up with women acting damned stupid, using little to no judgement, and getting themselves into situations where rape or an assault can (and is even likely) to occur.


I hope that made sense...

I see what you're saying, and I agree women have to use their judgment and keep the risk in mind. On the other hand, both a woman and a man have every right to change their mind - even after hopping into the same bed. What happens if he starts to play too rough, or something else unexpected happens that makes her want to call it off? It's rather difficult to force a man, but a woman is vulnerable. Assigning blame or even "responsibility" based on them being in bed together is dangerous, if you ask me. We want rapes to be reported and prosecuted, and that means recognizing that NO means NO - regardless of the circumstances.

I have a much bigger problem with the irreponsibility of women who make false rape accusations. It doesn't get much lower than that.

I agree. I guess I'm not being clear.

As I said in the above post, it's naive to think that you can protect yourself against assault regardless of your actions by just saying no. Most men will stop; but not all.

Can't argue with that.

Women are more vulnerable and need to be more cautious, that's just a fact of life. IMO, we need to be wise about choosing a partner more than anything. But that might be a different topic.

 

[Sherry]

BBC News - Women say some rape victims should take blame - survey









Thoughts USMB?

And does anyone think these poll numbers would be vastly different in the U.S. or about the same?

I think it's indicative of a mindset that still exists among some women that the burden of being the responsible party still lies primarily on their shoulders, especially in regards to issues involving sex. Plus, a prevailing attitude among those same women that men have a more difficult challenge containing their sexual urges.

The burden of being the responsible party lies on EVERYONE'S shoulders as it regards their own actions. The man is responsible for his choice to have sex with the woman, regardless of her protests, but the woman is responsible if she made the choice to put herself in danger. It is ludicrous to take the position that any person should be able to behave recklessly and with a disregard for his or her own safety, and expect to remain as safe as in a mother's arms.

So that is the mindset that women are expected to have everytime they even start to make out with a guy?? Beware ladies, men are dangerous brutes and we must always be on guard and not give into temptation, or else be labeled "reckless". Ugh.

 

[California Girl]

It makes perfect sense to intelligent females. So you'll probably get a neg rep from Contessa.

I totally agree, it is always rape. But, as I said before it is the 'but for your actions' thing. For instance, you get into bed with some guy then change your mind, yea, it is still rape but I would be more prepared to take into account the actions of the female as well as the male in that circumstance.

There are so many variables, whether it's a one night stand or a relationship that is progressing. Things can get heated up rapidly, but what is the message?? Either stay chaste or be prepared to go all the way?? These situations are often spontaneous, and I don't think it's unreasonable to feel attracted enough to someone to even want to get naked and in bed with them, without it being assumed that it will result in full blown intercourse. Maybe some would think that is being naive and/or a tease, but it's also human nature to want to explore. I don't know, it's complicated.

It is complicated. I think part of it goes back to your previous post, too. How many women think men have a harder time controlling their "urges" and are maybe giving them even unconsciously a little slack in that department? They're guys but they do still have ears and functioning brains and everything. And any man who can't or won't stop when told NO is no man, period. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are.

That's all true and I agree. However, I still say that it is unrealistic to expect men to be mind readers - however capable they are. Putting yourself into a situation where something may be misunderstood is as much a woman's responsibility as it is a man's.

Damn, I'm defending men. That's not like me at all. I'm usually holding them responsible for every ill in the world and then some.

 

[Emma]

I think it's indicative of a mindset that still exists among some women that the burden of being the responsible party still lies primarily on their shoulders, especially in regards to issues involving sex. Plus, a prevailing attitude among those same women that men have a more difficult challenge containing their sexual urges.

The burden of being the responsible party lies on EVERYONE'S shoulders as it regards their own actions. The man is responsible for his choice to have sex with the woman, regardless of her protests, but the woman is responsible if she made the choice to put herself in danger. It is ludicrous to take the position that any person should be able to behave recklessly and with a disregard for his or her own safety, and expect to remain as safe as in a mother's arms.

So that is the mindset that women are expected to have everytime they even start to make out with a guy?? Beware ladies, men are dangerous brutes and we must always be on guard and not give into temptation, or else be labeled "reckless". Ugh.

Ah now, come on. That's not what she's saying.

 

[Ravi]

Is armed robbery also the victim's fault? How about murder? What about DUI induced accidents?

People can be pretty stupid sometimes.

The victim is never the cause of the crime. The person that commits the crime is the cause of the crime.

 

[Emma]

There are so many variables, whether it's a one night stand or a relationship that is progressing. Things can get heated up rapidly, but what is the message?? Either stay chaste or be prepared to go all the way?? These situations are often spontaneous, and I don't think it's unreasonable to feel attracted enough to someone to even want to get naked and in bed with them, without it being assumed that it will result in full blown intercourse. Maybe some would think that is being naive and/or a tease, but it's also human nature to want to explore. I don't know, it's complicated.

It is complicated. I think part of it goes back to your previous post, too. How many women think men have a harder time controlling their "urges" and are maybe giving them even unconsciously a little slack in that department? They're guys but they do still have ears and functioning brains and everything. And any man who can't or won't stop when told NO is no man, period. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are.

That's all true and I agree. However, I still say that it is unrealistic to expect men to be mind readers - however capable they are. Putting yourself into a situation where something may be misunderstood is as much a woman's responsibility as it is a man's.

Damn, I'm defending men. That's not like me at all. I'm usually holding them responsible for every ill in the world and then some.

Well all of this has me wondering how confused men must feel at times.

I swear to God if I were a guy, I'd have a woman sign a waiver --- "I, _______, being sober and coherent, agree to have sexual intercourse with _______"

And I'd keep a notary in the spare bedroom to witness and seal the agreement.

 

[Sherry]

The burden of being the responsible party lies on EVERYONE'S shoulders as it regards their own actions. The man is responsible for his choice to have sex with the woman, regardless of her protests, but the woman is responsible if she made the choice to put herself in danger. It is ludicrous to take the position that any person should be able to behave recklessly and with a disregard for his or her own safety, and expect to remain as safe as in a mother's arms.

So that is the mindset that women are expected to have everytime they even start to make out with a guy?? Beware ladies, men are dangerous brutes and we must always be on guard and not give into temptation, or else be labeled "reckless". Ugh.

Ah now, come on. That's not what she's saying.

Yeah, I guess I am just frustrated because I believe in personal responsibility as well, but sometimes you want a moment to be able to just let go and give in without fear. I don't know if that makes sense.

 

[California Girl]

Is armed robbery also the victim's fault? How about murder? What about DUI induced accidents?

People can be pretty stupid sometimes.

The victim is never the cause of the crime. The person that commits the crime is the cause of the crime.

None of which is actually a valid comparison. Personal responsibility means just that.... if you put yourself into a situation where things could get out of hand then you have some responsibility for it - not sole responsibility but some. You realize that blame can be apportioned, do you not?

As Emma said, walk down a high crime area, flashing cash and, yea, you carry some of the responsibility for getting mugged.

 

[Emma]

So that is the mindset that women are expected to have everytime they even start to make out with a guy?? Beware ladies, men are dangerous brutes and we must always be on guard and not give into temptation, or else be labeled "reckless". Ugh.

Ah now, come on. That's not what she's saying.

Yeah, I guess I am just frustrated because I believe in personal responsibility as well, but sometimes you want a moment to be able to just let go and give in without fear. I don't know if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense.

I guess the bottom line is that we are vulnerable. I just want to keep the playing field as level as possible.

 

[Emma]

Dogbert should be pleased that we got the thread back on topic

 

[goldcatt]

There are so many variables, whether it's a one night stand or a relationship that is progressing. Things can get heated up rapidly, but what is the message?? Either stay chaste or be prepared to go all the way?? These situations are often spontaneous, and I don't think it's unreasonable to feel attracted enough to someone to even want to get naked and in bed with them, without it being assumed that it will result in full blown intercourse. Maybe some would think that is being naive and/or a tease, but it's also human nature to want to explore. I don't know, it's complicated.

It is complicated. I think part of it goes back to your previous post, too. How many women think men have a harder time controlling their "urges" and are maybe giving them even unconsciously a little slack in that department? They're guys but they do still have ears and functioning brains and everything. And any man who can't or won't stop when told NO is no man, period. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are.

That's all true and I agree. However, I still say that it is unrealistic to expect men to be mind readers - however capable they are. Putting yourself into a situation where something may be misunderstood is as much a woman's responsibility as it is a man's.

Damn, I'm defending men. That's not like me at all. I'm usually holding them responsible for every ill in the world and then some.

No, you're absolutely right. It's everybody's responsibility to communicate exactly what they do and do not want. "Signals" are too easy to misread.