Women say some rape victims should take blame - survey (UK)

[goldcatt]

Sorry, but no. I have said nothing even remotely like that insane bullshit CS is spouting, nor have I put the blame for being raped on the woman. I just refuse to encourage women to be as stupid as CS appears to be, putting their trust for their safety on how things "SHOULD" be, instead of acknowledging and preparing for how things actually ARE. I'm really not interested if you're just so used to people finding ass-kissing ways of speaking in order to be thought "nice". That isn't my schtick.

Concentrating on getting your point across clearly and in a manner that will be listened to rather than insulting, belittling, and being condescending toward the people you're speaking with or about isn't exactly "ass kissy" when you're having a relatively serious discussion. Then again, it explains a lot about how the wrong signals can screw up the clarity of a woman's message in any given situation, doesn't it?

 

[Emma]

So what are your thoughts, Doggie? Now that the ladies have spoken.

Well I haven't had a chance to read every post. But I do generally agree with what I believe you, Emma, and CG are saying since you three seem to be agree.

I have to respectfully disagree with Contessa on this one as well.

The whole issue of rape is a difficult one for me to decide upon in certain areas, such as punishment. I mean, it's so difficult now to look at the various degrees and know for sure the guy did it. Especially when you hear a new story every other day of a girl crying wolf.

Though every time a girl does cry wolf, she hurts not only herself but her entire gender. I mean that's like taking a entire step back. Because now people are going to not believe as much if you ever do come forward with a real accusation.

I can say one thing though. Even though legally, anyone with alcohol in their system cannot give consent, I feel that if both parties are drunk out of their minds then it's not rape either.

When a man rapes a woman does that mean we should accept without question or evidence that any man accused of rape is guilty?

 

[Emma]

I don't know that it ups the chance that she's lying, but it sure as hell ups the chance that she made her wishes clearly known, or even remembers what happened very clearly.

Which does raise a question of credibility for anyone prosecuting a case, but what does it do to make a claim more or less likely to be truthful? We all know there are far more rapes than ever make it to prosecution - either because they are not reported, or because they are difficult to prove, or because the victim's credibility rightly or wrongly is considered suspect. Does that change whether a rape occurred?

What does it do to her claim that she was raped if she doesn't actually remember what happened? Or if she was so drunk she THOUGHT she said, "No, stop!" and what actually came out was "Nrzlfgmsn"? Seriously, you need me to answer that for you?

Men can barely figure out what women want when we explain it carefully with diagrams. They sure as hell can't read our minds. If you put yourself in a sexual situation with a man, change your mind, and don't communicate clearly to HIM that you changed your mind, then I'm sorry, but he didn't rape you. He can't be expected to stop if he doesn't know you want him to.

That when a woman says 'no' she doesn't really mean 'no' is pervasive and romanticized throughout our culture. For example, think of how many movies portray women as reluctant (or flat out refusing) to be with a man, only to have him pursue her relentlessly, ignoring her protests, until she finally gives in... the moral of the story being, of course, that he's what she's been looking for all along.

 

[Anguille]

Both need to take personal responsibility for being drunk and driving. See how that works? Maybe if the drunk that got killed had not been drunk, he may have been able to take evasive action.

Everyone needs to take responsibility to NOT put themselves in dangerous situations.

I kind of agree with you. But. As a woman, walking on the beach alone is putting myself in a dangerous position. So is hiking in the woods alone. Or walking down the street.

The problem is with the criminal, not the victim.

I kind of get what you're say too but.... you're taking it to an extreme. I am trying to balance the need to take sensible precautions - ie getting naked with a guy that you do not intend to have sex with is actually not even remotely the same thing as going for a solitary hike, really, is it?

Women need to be sensible when it comes to not deliberately putting themselves into a situation whereby a man can misread the signals.

In no way does that exculpate a rapist but I don't disagree with that being good advice. However. speakiing of signals, don't forget, women sometimes misread men's signals, as in ones that seem to say," You're safe with me, baby, I would never harm you or force you to have sex against you will, so go ahead and relax, let your guard down with me, have another drink".
I do not think that getting dunk with a guy or even getting naked with a guy equals consenting to sex, even if initially a woman had been feeling favorable towards having sex. Something can happen at the last minute to make her change her mind and a man is obliged to respect that.

Our society is sexist not only against but also against men in the way it sometimes assumes that men have urges they cannot control, that they are animals and so if sexually aroused they are no longer responsible for their actions and therefore not responsible for rape. This false assumption is demeaning to men. Real men can control their urges and do not violate women. Real men desire and enjoy consensual sex. Rapists are therefore not real men.

 

[dilloduck]

I kind of agree with you. But. As a woman, walking on the beach alone is putting myself in a dangerous position. So is hiking in the woods alone. Or walking down the street.

The problem is with the criminal, not the victim.

I kind of get what you're say too but.... you're taking it to an extreme. I am trying to balance the need to take sensible precautions - ie getting naked with a guy that you do not intend to have sex with is actually not even remotely the same thing as going for a solitary hike, really, is it?

Women need to be sensible when it comes to not deliberately putting themselves into a situation whereby a man can misread the signals.

In no way does that exculpate a rapist but I don't disagree with that being good advice. However. speakiing of signals, don't forget, women sometimes misread men's signals, as in ones that seem to say," You're safe with me, baby, I would never harm you or force you to have sex against you will, so go ahead and relax, let your guard down with me, have another drink".
I do not think that getting dunk with a guy or even getting naked with a guy equals consenting to sex, even if initially a woman had been feeling favorable towards having sex. Something can happen at the last minute to make her change her mind and a man is obliged to respect that.

Our society is sexist not only against but also against men in the way it sometimes assumes that men have urges they cannot control, that they are animals and so if sexually aroused they are no longer responsible for their actions and therefore not responsible for rape. This false assumption is demeaning to men. Real men can control their urges and do not violate women. Real men desire and enjoy consensual sex. Rapists are therefore not real men.

oh yes---it's quite reasonable to get drunk and naked with a man and expect to treated like you are sober with all your clothes on.

 

[Anguille]

I kind of get what you're say too but.... you're taking it to an extreme. I am trying to balance the need to take sensible precautions - ie getting naked with a guy that you do not intend to have sex with is actually not even remotely the same thing as going for a solitary hike, really, is it?

Women need to be sensible when it comes to not deliberately putting themselves into a situation whereby a man can misread the signals.

In no way does that exculpate a rapist but I don't disagree with that being good advice. However. speakiing of signals, don't forget, women sometimes misread men's signals, as in ones that seem to say," You're safe with me, baby, I would never harm you or force you to have sex against you will, so go ahead and relax, let your guard down with me, have another drink".
I do not think that getting dunk with a guy or even getting naked with a guy equals consenting to sex, even if initially a woman had been feeling favorable towards having sex. Something can happen at the last minute to make her change her mind and a man is obliged to respect that.

Our society is sexist not only against but also against men in the way it sometimes assumes that men have urges they cannot control, that they are animals and so if sexually aroused they are no longer responsible for their actions and therefore not responsible for rape. This false assumption is demeaning to men. Real men can control their urges and do not violate women. Real men desire and enjoy consensual sex. Rapists are therefore not real men.

oh yes---it's quite reasonable to get drunk and naked with a man and expect to treated like you are sober with all your clothes on.

I think so when it comes to her right to say no to sex and not be raped.

 

[dilloduck]

In no way does that exculpate a rapist but I don't disagree with that being good advice. However. speakiing of signals, don't forget, women sometimes misread men's signals, as in ones that seem to say," You're safe with me, baby, I would never harm you or force you to have sex against you will, so go ahead and relax, let your guard down with me, have another drink".
I do not think that getting dunk with a guy or even getting naked with a guy equals consenting to sex, even if initially a woman had been feeling favorable towards having sex. Something can happen at the last minute to make her change her mind and a man is obliged to respect that.

Our society is sexist not only against but also against men in the way it sometimes assumes that men have urges they cannot control, that they are animals and so if sexually aroused they are no longer responsible for their actions and therefore not responsible for rape. This false assumption is demeaning to men. Real men can control their urges and do not violate women. Real men desire and enjoy consensual sex. Rapists are therefore not real men.

oh yes---it's quite reasonable to get drunk and naked with a man and expect to treated like you are sober with all your clothes on.

I think so when it comes to her right to say no to sex and not be raped.

prolly OK for you to hump his leg until you come several times to as long as he doesn't get some hairbrained idea that he can penetrate you. Get real, eel lady.

 

[Anguille]

oh yes---it's quite reasonable to get drunk and naked with a man and expect to treated like you are sober with all your clothes on.

I think so when it comes to her right to say no to sex and not be raped.

prolly OK for you to hump his leg until you come several times to as long as he doesn't get some hairbrained idea that he can penetrate you. Get real, eel lady.

So are you saying that women who are drunk and naked have no say in the matter anymore and if a man wants to have sex with them, even if they protest, too bad? Being naked and drunk equal consent to sex?