Who thinks religion has out lived it's purpose?

[MJDuncan1982]

Nietzche may have been smart but he was also insane. Hence why i try not to base my life off anything he has said.

The truth of the message is not dependent upon the messenger.

 

[wade]

Actually that statement is flawed..........Back in the 50's before the 60's revolution, If it feels good do it, many more people were faithfull to religious beliefs...........Hence there was more integrity, honesty, hard work, morality, less abortions, less murder, less drugs....... less divorce, less infidelity,and on and on. True Religion can't take all the credit for that, some was just do to societal evolution at that point, but a lot was due to religion.

Your looking at this from front to back rather than back to front. It was so called enlightened progressive revolution that said "God is dead" society, that has led us to where we are today.

Ummm... there were less drugs in our society because there were less drugs period. Amphetamines, LSD, PCP, etc... didn't even exist as street drugs. Cocaine was uncommon and Crack Cocaine didn't exist. Heroin and Marijauna were actually fairly common, it was just not talked about much. Increasing legal pressure to stop marijauna is what opened the door to the cocain flood of the 70's. But the drug problem did not become epidemic until two drugs became widely available - crack cocaine and meth-amphetamine, and that was just an evolution of drug use that would have happened religion or no religion.

Less infidelity? Are you kidding? Infidelity has always been pretty rampant in this country - but it became especially so during WWII, and persisted after the war ended. The only difference between pre-WWII and post-WWII infidelity is that married women are participating in it in a much bigger way than they did before the war, and how it is viewed. Before WWII, it was considered basically okay for a successful man to maintain a mistress, his wife was expected to accept this. Post-WWII, the women said "bull shit" to that double standard.

The whole sex thing in this country is kind of crazy. Do you realize that prior to WWI, especially through the later 2/3rds of the 19th century, that middle class women were going to the doctor to get masterbated? There were machines for this, and it was called treament for "female hystria" I believe, and it was extremely common. At the same time, the husbands and boyfriends were down at the whore house. These practices didn't diminish until the religious right gained power in the 20's and early 30's.

As for crime, again it is really hard to say. Ghetto's are much more entrenched now than they were in the 50's, and this is where a lot of the crime you are speaking of occures today. Also, crimes are reported by victims more today than they were, espeically sexual crimes, and these kinds of crimes are almost always taken seriously now, where in the 50's they often were not. In the 50's, a woman reporting a rape became the victim of the police officers and court system, which assumed she had brought it upon herself. And many crimes were simply not reported by the media. Many of the child killings of the 40's and 50's were simply not reported, especially if the child was of non-white ethnicity.

And finally, I'd point out that in the period leading up to the late 70's, people's standards of living were improving. Since the 70's this has changed in a big way. The defacto requirement that a modern family have two income earners rather than one is a huge part of the problems you are pointing too, far more than a lack of religion. The lack of proper parenting is the real root of social decay in the USA, and how can a person (traditionally the mother) do a good job of parenting if they also have to have a full time job?

 

[Zhukov]

Only if you consider Christianity to be the part of Western society that is standing up to Islamofacism. It is not, this is a foolish statement. It is Western Democracy that is standing up to Islamofascism - religion has nothing to do with it.

Western democracy, not Christianity, is standing up to Islamofascism? To quote you, "this is a foolish statment", and you're own statements on this board argue the fact.

You've called the central front in the War on Terror, a "unilateral" action, and as I'm sure you're aware that vast amount of support for the War on Terror in this country arises from the right, the religious conservative right, and very little from the secular left.

Further, American democracy itself was birthed from the Protestant ideals of our Founding Fathers, and all other worldly democracies were directly or indirectly birthed from our own. The Age of Democracies is a direct result of the ascendancy of American power. Modern democracy is itself a Christian product.

You make the statement that popular secularism is not moral - what do you base this upon? The proper statement is that popular secularism does not follow all of your religious moral dicatates.

Well, not having relgious moral dictates(?), it's difficult to say secularism doesn't adhere to them. No, wait, since they don't exist I suppose it's very easy to say that popular secularists don't follow them, but that is of course not the point.

Popular secularism is amoral because it refuses to make moral judgements concerning individuals or their behavior, as is plain to anyone reading this very thread. There is no absolute right and wrong because there are always extenuating circumstances. There is only nuance and complexity, to paraphrase a certain politician. There is no judgment, there is only equivocation. They don't have different morals, they have no morals. This is amoral by definition.

Hardly the same thing - but I can understand that thinking comming from a self-proclaimed fascist...

You've ended a couple replies to me this way, as if you think I'm ashamed of it......sweet, sweet Wade, I couldn't be prouder.

 

[Avatar4321]

The truth of the message is not dependent upon the messenger.

No. it doesnt but then the truth doesnt drive one nuts either.

 

[wade]

Zhukov,

I disagree that support for "The War on Terror" comes primarily from the religious right. What I will agree with is that support for the War in Iraq derives more from this group than the "secular left".

I kid you about being a fascist because you proclaimed yourself as such, and I think your positions are kinda funny in light of this.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

Zhukov,

I disagree that support for "The War on Terror" comes primarily from the religious right. What I will agree with is that support for the War in Iraq derives more from this group than the "secular left".

I kid you about being a fascist because you proclaimed yourself as such, and I think your positions are kinda funny in light of this.

Wade.

I'm afraid the "secular left" blames the US for all this and would pull all our troops home to wait for the next attack. They are too worried about personal freedoms to see that they would not exist if we didn't have a strong military to protect us from contries that would love to slowly chip away at them.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

A system of rules for mankind will never go out of style. What is bad about religion? The hope it inspires? The self sacrifice it promotes? The faith it promotes in a set of prosocial values is a good thing.

Which ten commandment do you think is out of date?

You libs typically hate "Thou shalt not covet." Class envy (covetousness) is the spine of all your talking points!

 

[MissileMan]

A system of rules for mankind will never go out of style. What is bad about religion? The hope it inspires? The self sacrifice it promotes? The faith it promotes in a set of prosocial values is a good thing.

Which ten commandment do you think is out of date?

You libs typically hate "Thou shalt not covet." Class envy (covetousness) is the spine of all your talking points!

Religious law was the foundation for our current penal code. Don't kill, steal, et al, are the basic tenets of the Golden Rule. I have no problem with this.

My beef is more with religious institutions. For some reason, religion seems to breed intolerance, especially for other religions. As an example, even though Christianity preaches tolerance and acceptance, it seems to be reserved only for other Christians who believe and act as they do. (case in point, homosexuals)

I went to a Catholic mass several years ago, and very little of it had to do with guidance and fellowship. Most of the mass was spent hyping Casino Night coming up later in the week to raise money for the church. Even the programs had advertising on them.

Religion's last great purpose is the promise of an afterlife. If everyone believed, as I do, that you get your one shot on this world and then it's back to oblivion, the chaos and lawlessness would destroy mankind. I am neither chaotic nor lawless, I am restrained by my own morals (based on the Golden Rule) and the legal system.

On the other hand, if everyone believed in one shot, then life might be held more precious, and it might be harder to convince someone to turn themselves into a suicide bomb.

 

[Bonnie]

Ummm... there were less drugs in our society because there were less drugs period. Amphetamines, LSD, PCP, etc... didn't even exist as street drugs. Cocaine was uncommon and Crack Cocaine didn't exist. Heroin and Marijauna were actually fairly common, it was just not talked about much. Increasing legal pressure to stop marijauna is what opened the door to the cocain flood of the 70's. But the drug problem did not become epidemic until two drugs became widely available - crack cocaine and meth-amphetamine, and that was just an evolution of drug use that would have happened religion or no religion.

Less infidelity? Are you kidding? Infidelity has always been pretty rampant in this country - but it became especially so during WWII, and persisted after the war ended. The only difference between pre-WWII and post-WWII infidelity is that married women are participating in it in a much bigger way than they did before the war, and how it is viewed. Before WWII, it was considered basically okay for a successful man to maintain a mistress, his wife was expected to accept this. Post-WWII, the women said "bull shit" to that double standard.

The whole sex thing in this country is kind of crazy. Do you realize that prior to WWI, especially through the later 2/3rds of the 19th century, that middle class women were going to the doctor to get masterbated? There were machines for this, and it was called treament for "female hystria" I believe, and it was extremely common. At the same time, the husbands and boyfriends were down at the whore house. These practices didn't diminish until the religious right gained power in the 20's and early 30's.

As for crime, again it is really hard to say. Ghetto's are much more entrenched now than they were in the 50's, and this is where a lot of the crime you are speaking of occures today. Also, crimes are reported by victims more today than they were, espeically sexual crimes, and these kinds of crimes are almost always taken seriously now, where in the 50's they often were not. In the 50's, a woman reporting a rape became the victim of the police officers and court system, which assumed she had brought it upon herself. And many crimes were simply not reported by the media. Many of the child killings of the 40's and 50's were simply not reported, especially if the child was of non-white ethnicity.

And finally, I'd point out that in the period leading up to the late 70's, people's standards of living were improving. Since the 70's this has changed in a big way. The defacto requirement that a modern family have two income earners rather than one is a huge part of the problems you are pointing too, far more than a lack of religion. The lack of proper parenting is the real root of social decay in the USA, and how can a person (traditionally the mother) do a good job of parenting if they also have to have a full time job?

WEll Wade I wasn't born in the fifties, but I really dont recall there being metal detectors in schools, and kids killing eachother and their teachers, if it did happen it was an isolated incident. Lack of religion and parental indifference go hand in hand, but that is something you will never understand because religion itself holds no value to you to begin with, so it's a mute point for me to try and make apparent to you a link between lack of religious enlightenment and all that is going wrong in the world.
Prayer leads to grace and an ability to see things as they are, and a true desire to be a better person, not out of guit, out of sheer will, it's very powerfull, but again you don't see the value in it. I suppose an analogy would be for someone to say they don't get why people are so into riding motorcycles, and how freeing it can be, if the have never ridden on one....probably not the best analogy, but it's what comes to mind.

Yes there was always sin, evil, however you wish to define it, but the truth is it is much more rampant now, if you wish to attibute it to both parents being in the work place so be it. For me I see a total lack of religious morality in abortion cheapening life so much so that kids think it's okay to kill eachother, same hold true for adults. when there is no more morality, there is chaos and things go backwards, there is no more order left.
There is no way that (most some can) people will want to do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do or some sense of karma, we are too weak willed, it has always been those that are failthful and principled that have made the most of their lives and those around them................Examples.......Mother Theresa, Franciscan Monks who work in the poorest of countries, leaders like Reagan who was religious and principled,etc. These people made a difference not because it is just the right thing to do, but because they were religious and prayed for strength, discernment, guidance and devotion. they weren't so proud as to think they were great enough to go it alone.

 

[Zhukov]

My beef is more with religious institutions. For some reason, religion seems to breed intolerance, especially for other religions. As an example, even though Christianity preaches tolerance and acceptance, it seems to be reserved only for other Christians who believe and act as they do. (case in point, homosexuals)

This just isn't the case, and your example is wrong. Mainstream Christians don't have anything against the person, it is the action they dislike, and I'd be willing to bet most homosexuals in this country are in fact Christians.

In Christian America we have mosques, synagogues, temples, you can even go and worship Satan out in the woods if you want to.

American Christians are the most tolerant and accepting people in the world evidenced by the fact that people from all over the world flock to the country that tolerant Christians created.

 

[wade]

WEll Wade I wasn't born in the fifties, but I really dont recall there being metal detectors in schools, and kids killing eachother and their teachers, if it did happen it was an isolated incident. Lack of religion and parental indifference go hand in hand, but that is something you will never understand because religion itself holds no value to you to begin with, so it's a mute point for me to try and make apparent to you a link between lack of religious enlightenment and all that is going wrong in the world.
Prayer leads to grace and an ability to see things as they are, and a true desire to be a better person, not out of guit, out of sheer will, it's very powerfull, but again you don't see the value in it. I suppose an analogy would be for someone to say they don't get why people are so into riding motorcycles, and how freeing it can be, if the have never ridden on one....probably not the best analogy, but it's what comes to mind.

Yes there was always sin, evil, however you wish to define it, but the truth is it is much more rampant now, if you wish to attibute it to both parents being in the work place so be it. For me I see a total lack of religious morality in abortion cheapening life so much so that kids think it's okay to kill eachother, same hold true for adults. when there is no more morality, there is chaos and things go backwards, there is no more order left.
There is no way that (most some can) people will want to do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do or some sense of karma, we are too weak willed, it has always been those that are failthful and principled that have made the most of their lives and those around them................Examples.......Mother Theresa, Franciscan Monks who work in the poorest of countries, leaders like Reagan who was religious and principled,etc. These people made a difference not because it is just the right thing to do, but because they were religious and prayed for strength, discernment, guidance and devotion. they weren't so proud as to think they were great enough to go it alone.

Again, you point to a lack of religion as the cause for all sorts of problems which I think are clearly economically based. Mothers in the 50's mostly were housewives and dedicated themselves to raising the children. This has changed. Far more families require two bread winners than families that have "lost religion" as compared to the 50's.

As for children shooting up schools, first off that is still a relatively rare phenomna, but significant in its intensity. But I think this is clearly due to two causes; first is the lack of parenting, second is the increasing intensity of violence in our culture (largely brought on by the media). Another issue is the availability of guns, especially handguns and small semi-auto (convertable to full auto) machine pistol type weapons, and a general increase in weapons availability in our culture. And finally, school killings did happen in the 50's, but it didn't recieve the kind of intense news coverage that it does now (there wasn't such a thing back then).

You assume I have no religious upbringing - and you are dead wrong. I grew up with both the Protestant and Jewish faiths. My Grandmother converted to Catholisism when I was very young, and for about a year I was exposed to that as well while my family lived with her when my Dad was deployed on an extended cruise in VN. I have seen first hand, far better than most, just how tolerant these religions are of other religions.

As for people doing "the right thing", they do as they see done. Far too often, what they see being done is the wrong thing for advantage or personal gain. And this holds true for the religious as well as the non-religious. In my life, I have seen no higher morality amoung the religious than the non-religous. I wish we could gather statistics - I would bet christians seek abortions at amost exactly their proportions in the population. The "religious" certainly commit crimes with about the same propensity as the non-religious.

Finally, there is one more change in our society that increases the internal violence level - we have no sanctioned outlets for the violent. In the pre-WWII period, western nations all had military and non-military outlets for these kinds of people. If you wanted to rape and pillage, you joined the expeditionary force or a private military force and went to the third world, where you could pretty much do as you wished, and even be praised and rewarded for it. Thankfully today we no longer sanction or tolerate such behavior, but the price of not doing so is these types of people are internalized and their violent natures are turned against our society rather than someone elses.

 

[beemerup]

I heard a speaker the other day say that, "all atheists change their view one minute after death", True?

 

[White knight]

Bush won the Governorship of Texas through the overwhelming support of the moral majority. During his governorship he allowed more executions to be carried out in his state then any other state. He still retained overwhelming support by the religious right.
I would say that his religious supporters liked his stance on this issue and his support grew. Some have argued that it gave him a extra boost in standing with the religious right for his bid to the white house. He professes to be a born again Christian, doesn’t being supportive to these executions and his involvement with the deaths of others now, go against his and the moral majority’s religious doctrines.
I guess this is why some people have a hard time with people proclaiming religion as the answer. It appears to be hypocritical.

In all fairness Kerry is a killer too. He killed up front and personal in Nam.

Don’t take this as some kind of support for Kerry. Bush is the right Commander in Chief for this time period.

Just do the best you can in answering the question please.

 

[Avatar4321]

Bush won the Governorship of Texas through the overwhelming support of the moral majority. During his governorship he allowed more executions to be carried out in his state then any other state. He still retained overwhelming support by the religious right.
I would say that his religious supporters liked his stance on this issue and his support grew. Some have argued that it gave him a extra boost in standing with the religious right for his bid to the white house. He professes to be a born again Christian, doesn’t being supportive to these executions and his involvement with the deaths of others now, go against his and the moral majority’s religious doctrines.
I guess this is why some people have a hard time with people proclaiming religion as the answer. It appears to be hypocritical.

In all fairness Kerry is a killer too. He killed up front and personal in Nam.

Don’t take this as some kind of support for Kerry. Bush is the right Commander in Chief for this time period.

Just do the best you can in answering the question please.

Maybe its me, but i havent seen where you actually asked a question in the above statement. You gave alot of opinions and some facts but where is the question?

 

[Avatar4321]

I disagree that support for "The War on Terror" comes primarily from the religious right. What I will agree with is that support for the War in Iraq derives more from this group than the "secular left".

Well you are right some on the religious left IE Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman support the war on terror as well. I am still amazed at how you NeoComs have been trying to detatch the war in Iraq from the War on terror. They arent different wars any more than the war with Germany and the War with Japan were different wars during WW2. We have a front in Aghanistan and Iraq now. Iran is pinned between the two. Liberty is on the march. And you are going to bet the religious right and every other freedom loving American is going to support it. Because its through freedom that terrorism will be stopped, Freedom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[wade]

Well you are right some on the religious left IE Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman support the war on terror as well. I am still amazed at how you NeoComs have been trying to detatch the war in Iraq from the War on terror. They arent different wars any more than the war with Germany and the War with Japan were different wars during WW2. We have a front in Aghanistan and Iraq now. Iran is pinned between the two. Liberty is on the march. And you are going to bet the religious right and every other freedom loving American is going to support it. Because its through freedom that terrorism will be stopped, Freedom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Well, we just disagree. I do not believe the war in Iraq = the war on terror. And I certainly don't believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be forced upon people in the name of freedom!

 

[wade]

I heard a speaker the other day say that, "all atheists change their view one minute after death", True?

Hmmm... how whould he or anyone else know?

I'd say, it is much more likely that all religous people change their views one second after death - as it is almost a certainty their views are wrong.

 

[Zhukov]

I heard a speaker the other day say that, "all atheists change their view one minute after death", True?

Let's hope so. Otherwise decomposition is going to be awful boring.

 

[Zhukov]

Again, you point to a lack of religion as the cause for all sorts of problems which I think are clearly economically based.

Could the circumstances that resulted in people being poor be directly linked to an abandonment of traditional religious values by those people?

I'll bet poor people brought up in religious environments are far less likely to engage in immoral and/or illegal behavior, as compared to those who grew up in environments lacking any religious influence whatsoever.

During his governorship he allowed more executions to be carried out in his state then any other state. He still retained overwhelming support by the religious right.

Yes, and?

Eye for an eye. You take an innocent life, your life is forfeit. A perfectly just and equitable arrangement if I do say so myself, and completely consistent with what their God tells them.

At any rate, a jury of the executed's peers sent those men (and a few women) to their deaths, not the Govenor. You could say he allowed it just as easily as you could say he did not obstruct it, which without cause he had no right to do.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well, we just disagree. I do not believe the war in Iraq = the war on terror. And I certainly don't believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be forced upon people in the name of freedom!

You misunderstand me. i said nothing of forcing the Gospel of Jesus Christ on people, only that it was the only way for people to be truly free.

As for you're not believing that the war in iraq is a front in the war on terror, thats your perogative. Doesnt say much about your ability to understand whats going on in the world though.