What do liberals want the US to be?

[Dogmaphobe]

Define the difference between 'social order' and 'social justice.'

Social order refers to all the various institutions, customs and practices that tend to regulate how we behave. These are often preserved simply because they exist and do not necessarily serve to protect the rights of all individuals.

So American traditions are nothing more than bigoted customs existing, "simply because."

Social justice refers to a moral concept that operates from the assumption that all people were created equal and so deserve the same rights.

Does not it state in the 'Declaration of Independence" that "all men are created equal?"

Why would liberals have a problem that?

You sound too ignorant and belligerent to indulge in any sort of intelligent discussion.

You just want to play some childish game of cowboys and Indians.

 

[Redfish]

this is a serious question, please only reply with serious comments.

what specifically do liberals want the US to become?
Tell us exactly what you want changed, and why.

Seriously?

Liberals want a country that provides a level playing field for all people regardless of race, sex, sexuality or social class
Liberals want to help those who need helping

everyone wants to help those who need help. Where in the USA today is the playing field not level? Do you want more affrimative action that penalizes the majorities?

I asked for specifics, you provided generalizations. What exactly do you want?

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

affirmative action punished people because of their race, sex, or who their parents were. How is that "fair"?

You do realize that most of the hated "wealthy class" are democrats and liberals don't you?

Liberal hypocrisy is rampant in hollywood, the media, and corporate america.

The difference is that wealthy liberals are willing to pass laws that force them to pay more
Wealthy conservatives pass laws that take away programs for the poor

I asked for serious comments, not talking points and lies. If you have nothing serious to offer, leave the thread.

 

[Ravi]

It would help if people could learn at least enough of the basics of political science to realize liberalism is an ideology with certain tenets rather than just describing a person. This Manichaean insistence that people are divided into just two political groups is part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

People can call themselves "liberal" all they want, but unless they are operating from the standpoint of advancing liberal values, they are just left wing fundamentalists.

The shortest answer I can give here , though, is that liberalism places greater value on social justice than social order. The "conserve" in conservatism refers to the preservation of social order over social justice.

Yep, which is why cons don't care if cops shoot unarmed people.

 

[Care4all]

Seriously?

Liberals want a country that provides a level playing field for all people regardless of race, sex, sexuality or social class
Liberals want to help those who need helping

everyone wants to help those who need help. Where in the USA today is the playing field not level? Do you want more affrimative action that penalizes the majorities?

I asked for specifics, you provided generalizations. What exactly do you want?

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

affirmative action punished people because of their race, sex, or who their parents were. How is that "fair"?

You do realize that most of the hated "wealthy class" are democrats and liberals don't you?

Liberal hypocrisy is rampant in hollywood, the media, and corporate america.

The difference is that wealthy liberals are willing to pass laws that force them to pay more
Wealthy conservatives pass laws that take away programs for the poor

thats simply not true. half of american pay no federal income tax. the top 5% pay 60% of the tax bill.

They are paying the same percentage they have paid in taxes....the reason they are paying more of the total income tax bill is because they are the only ones profiting from the economy.... the reason the middle class and poorest are paying less is due to the middle and lower class not profiting from the economy.....just as when corporations pay little to nothing in taxes when they are not profitable.... to tell the middle/lower class that more of the tax burden is to be put on their shoulders because they are NOT PROFITING, is utterly shameful.

 

[Redfish]

I want us to be a Nation above all Nations, in Justice, in wealth, in equal opportunity, and in the quality of life itself...for everyone.

I want to be represented without having to have a million dollars to bribe my representatives.

I don't want a police state, I don't want Banks running the Nation, we the people should be running the Nation, I don't want to enter in to a war, unless the country has tried to attack us first etc....

I don't want people running the Nation that believe the rich are too poor, and the poor are too rich.

Rich people don't create jobs, Jobs create rich people.

"I want to buy the world a coke and live in harmony" "Imagine all the people..........."

you live in a fantasy world.

What do you want our Nation to be?

the free constitutional republic that the founders established. Where "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" exist for all citizens and where "all men are created equal"


the key words here are "pursuit" and "created". There is no guarantee or equal results. your results are the result of your work, skills, and talents.

 

[Redfish]

It would help if people could learn at least enough of the basics of political science to realize liberalism is an ideology with certain tenets rather than just describing a person. This Manichaean insistence that people are divided into just two political groups is part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

People can call themselves "liberal" all they want, but unless they are operating from the standpoint of advancing liberal values, they are just left wing fundamentalists.

The shortest answer I can give here , though, is that liberalism places greater value on social justice than social order. The "conserve" in conservatism refers to the preservation of social order over social justice.

Yep, which is why cons don't care if cops shoot unarmed people.

 

[Redfish]

everyone wants to help those who need help. Where in the USA today is the playing field not level? Do you want more affrimative action that penalizes the majorities?

I asked for specifics, you provided generalizations. What exactly do you want?

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

affirmative action punished people because of their race, sex, or who their parents were. How is that "fair"?

You do realize that most of the hated "wealthy class" are democrats and liberals don't you?

Liberal hypocrisy is rampant in hollywood, the media, and corporate america.

The difference is that wealthy liberals are willing to pass laws that force them to pay more
Wealthy conservatives pass laws that take away programs for the poor

thats simply not true. half of american pay no federal income tax. the top 5% pay 60% of the tax bill.

They are paying the same percentage they have paid in taxes....the reason they are paying more of the total income tax bill is because they are the only ones profiting from the economy.... the reason the middle class and poorest are paying less is due to the middle and lower class not profiting from the economy.....just as when corporations pay little to nothing in taxes when they are not profitable.... to tell the middle/lower class that more of the tax burden is to be put on their shoulders because they are NOT PROFITING, is utterly shameful.

do you understand that we have a progressive income tax? the rich pay a higher percentage than the middle and lower income people.

the US has the highest corporate income tax rate in the world.

do you know anything?

 

[Care4all]

I want us to be a Nation above all Nations, in Justice, in wealth, in equal opportunity, and in the quality of life itself...for everyone.

I want to be represented without having to have a million dollars to bribe my representatives.

I don't want a police state, I don't want Banks running the Nation, we the people should be running the Nation, I don't want to enter in to a war, unless the country has tried to attack us first etc....

I don't want people running the Nation that believe the rich are too poor, and the poor are too rich.

Rich people don't create jobs, Jobs create rich people.

"I want to buy the world a coke and live in harmony" "Imagine all the people..........."

you live in a fantasy world.

What do you want our Nation to be?

the free constitutional republic that the founders established. Where "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" exist for all citizens and where "all men are created equal"


the key words here are "pursuit" and "created". There is no guarantee or equal results. your results are the result of your work, skills, and talents.

you sound like a liberal!

I agree!

 

[Redfish]

I want us to be a Nation above all Nations, in Justice, in wealth, in equal opportunity, and in the quality of life itself...for everyone.

I want to be represented without having to have a million dollars to bribe my representatives.

I don't want a police state, I don't want Banks running the Nation, we the people should be running the Nation, I don't want to enter in to a war, unless the country has tried to attack us first etc....

I don't want people running the Nation that believe the rich are too poor, and the poor are too rich.

Rich people don't create jobs, Jobs create rich people.

"I want to buy the world a coke and live in harmony" "Imagine all the people..........."

you live in a fantasy world.

What do you want our Nation to be?

the free constitutional republic that the founders established. Where "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" exist for all citizens and where "all men are created equal"


the key words here are "pursuit" and "created". There is no guarantee or equal results. your results are the result of your work, skills, and talents.

you sound like a liberal!

I agree!

how can you agree when you support affirmative action?

 

[Care4all]

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

affirmative action punished people because of their race, sex, or who their parents were. How is that "fair"?

You do realize that most of the hated "wealthy class" are democrats and liberals don't you?

Liberal hypocrisy is rampant in hollywood, the media, and corporate america.

The difference is that wealthy liberals are willing to pass laws that force them to pay more
Wealthy conservatives pass laws that take away programs for the poor

thats simply not true. half of american pay no federal income tax. the top 5% pay 60% of the tax bill.

They are paying the same percentage they have paid in taxes....the reason they are paying more of the total income tax bill is because they are the only ones profiting from the economy.... the reason the middle class and poorest are paying less is due to the middle and lower class not profiting from the economy.....just as when corporations pay little to nothing in taxes when they are not profitable.... to tell the middle/lower class that more of the tax burden is to be put on their shoulders because they are NOT PROFITING, is utterly shameful.

do you understand that we have a progressive income tax? the rich pay a higher percentage than the middle and lower income people.

the US has the highest corporate income tax rate in the world.

do you know anything?

the federal income tax is progressive, but State income taxes and social security taxes and medicare taxes and cigarette taxes and gasoline taxes and liquor taxes and property taxes and sales taxes are not progressive...

The entire tax structure to run this Nation has to be taken in to consideration, you can't just single out one aspect of it and claim 'foul'....

 

[rightwinger]

Seriously?

Liberals want a country that provides a level playing field for all people regardless of race, sex, sexuality or social class
Liberals want to help those who need helping

everyone wants to help those who need help. Where in the USA today is the playing field not level? Do you want more affrimative action that penalizes the majorities?

I asked for specifics, you provided generalizations. What exactly do you want?

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

Did it help the people who got passed over due to adding points to the people who got in due to it?

It helped those who were never given an opportunity to fill management or Complex jobs. In a society where blacks were only allowed menial jobs and women were only allowed subservient jobs, affirmative action was necessary
Affirmative action worked

Why should one race be given special consideration to fill an opportunity over another even though they're LESS QUALIFIED?

Are you saying blacks are too STUPID to compete on a level playing field?

How in the FUCK did obama ever become president?

Good question

Let's look at the society that existed in the 60s
White males possessed all the leadership positions and skilled positions. They claimed it was because they were best qualified. Blacks were best suited for menial labor and women could be secretaries and nurses.
In deciding who was best qualified for a managerial position, white male executives universally decided that white males were best suited for managerial positions. After all, they had never seen a woman or a black in that position
Affirmative action gave women and minorities a chance to fill skilled positions and they proved they were able to handle it
Thank affirmative action if your wife or daughter is able to get a position that is not teacher, secretary, nurse or cashier

 

[Redfish]

affirmative action punished people because of their race, sex, or who their parents were. How is that "fair"?

You do realize that most of the hated "wealthy class" are democrats and liberals don't you?

Liberal hypocrisy is rampant in hollywood, the media, and corporate america.

The difference is that wealthy liberals are willing to pass laws that force them to pay more
Wealthy conservatives pass laws that take away programs for the poor

thats simply not true. half of american pay no federal income tax. the top 5% pay 60% of the tax bill.

They are paying the same percentage they have paid in taxes....the reason they are paying more of the total income tax bill is because they are the only ones profiting from the economy.... the reason the middle class and poorest are paying less is due to the middle and lower class not profiting from the economy.....just as when corporations pay little to nothing in taxes when they are not profitable.... to tell the middle/lower class that more of the tax burden is to be put on their shoulders because they are NOT PROFITING, is utterly shameful.

do you understand that we have a progressive income tax? the rich pay a higher percentage than the middle and lower income people.

the US has the highest corporate income tax rate in the world.

do you know anything?

the federal income tax is progressive, but State income taxes and social security taxes and medicare taxes and cigarette taxes and gasoline taxes and liquor taxes and property taxes and sales taxes are not progressive...

The entire tax structure to run this Nation has to be taken in to consideration, you can't just single out one aspect of it and claim 'foul'....

actually most state income taxes asre progressive since they do not apply until a certain income level is reached.

I would make SS applicable to all income, not just the first 113K. medicare taxes are collected on all income.

how would you propose to make the poor not subject to sales taxes? Actually the more you spend the more you pay in sales taxes, so in a way they are progressive.

if you don't want to pay cigarette and liquor taxes, don't smoke and drink.

 

[Redfish]

everyone wants to help those who need help. Where in the USA today is the playing field not level? Do you want more affrimative action that penalizes the majorities?

I asked for specifics, you provided generalizations. What exactly do you want?

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

Did it help the people who got passed over due to adding points to the people who got in due to it?

It helped those who were never given an opportunity to fill management or Complex jobs. In a society where blacks were only allowed menial jobs and women were only allowed subservient jobs, affirmative action was necessary
Affirmative action worked

Why should one race be given special consideration to fill an opportunity over another even though they're LESS QUALIFIED?

Are you saying blacks are too STUPID to compete on a level playing field?

How in the FUCK did obama ever become president?

Good question

Let's look at the society that existed in the 60s
White males possessed all the leadership positions and skilled positions. They claimed it was because they were best qualified. Blacks were best suited for menial labor and women could be secretaries and nurses.
In deciding who was best qualified for a managerial position, white male executives universally decided that white males were best suited for managerial positions. After all, they had never seen a woman or a black in that position
Affirmative action gave women and minorities a chance to fill skilled positions and they proved they were able to handle it
Thank affirmative action if your wife or daughter is able to get a position that is not teacher, secretary, nurse or cashier

how did affirmative action help the following: Herman Cain, Thomas Sowell, Beyonce, Bill Cosby, Sammy Davis Jr, Whitney Houston, MLK jr, obama, Oprah.

you are wrong jake, those people succeeded because of their talents, skills, and hard work.

 

[rightwinger]

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

Did it help the people who got passed over due to adding points to the people who got in due to it?

It helped those who were never given an opportunity to fill management or Complex jobs. In a society where blacks were only allowed menial jobs and women were only allowed subservient jobs, affirmative action was necessary
Affirmative action worked

Why should one race be given special consideration to fill an opportunity over another even though they're LESS QUALIFIED?

Are you saying blacks are too STUPID to compete on a level playing field?

How in the FUCK did obama ever become president?

Good question

Let's look at the society that existed in the 60s
White males possessed all the leadership positions and skilled positions. They claimed it was because they were best qualified. Blacks were best suited for menial labor and women could be secretaries and nurses.
In deciding who was best qualified for a managerial position, white male executives universally decided that white males were best suited for managerial positions. After all, they had never seen a woman or a black in that position
Affirmative action gave women and minorities a chance to fill skilled positions and they proved they were able to handle it
Thank affirmative action if your wife or daughter is able to get a position that is not teacher, secretary, nurse or cashier

how did affirmative action help the following: Herman Cain, Thomas Sowell, Beyonce, Bill Cosby, Sammy Davis Jr, Whitney Houston, MLK jr, obama, Oprah.

you are wrong jake, those people succeeded because of their talents, skills, and hard work.

Good list

All have been helped by affirmative action. There was a time when black entertainers were relegated to the roles of servants and shuffling fools.

Cosby, Sammy Davis and later Whitney and Oprah benefitted from changing morals that allowed them to be looked at as real people and not stereotypes

 

[Redfish]

Did it help the people who got passed over due to adding points to the people who got in due to it?

It helped those who were never given an opportunity to fill management or Complex jobs. In a society where blacks were only allowed menial jobs and women were only allowed subservient jobs, affirmative action was necessary
Affirmative action worked

Why should one race be given special consideration to fill an opportunity over another even though they're LESS QUALIFIED?

Are you saying blacks are too STUPID to compete on a level playing field?

How in the FUCK did obama ever become president?

Good question

Let's look at the society that existed in the 60s
White males possessed all the leadership positions and skilled positions. They claimed it was because they were best qualified. Blacks were best suited for menial labor and women could be secretaries and nurses.
In deciding who was best qualified for a managerial position, white male executives universally decided that white males were best suited for managerial positions. After all, they had never seen a woman or a black in that position
Affirmative action gave women and minorities a chance to fill skilled positions and they proved they were able to handle it
Thank affirmative action if your wife or daughter is able to get a position that is not teacher, secretary, nurse or cashier

how did affirmative action help the following: Herman Cain, Thomas Sowell, Beyonce, Bill Cosby, Sammy Davis Jr, Whitney Houston, MLK jr, obama, Oprah.

you are wrong jake, those people succeeded because of their talents, skills, and hard work.

Good list

All have been helped by affirmative action. There was a time when black entertainers were relegated to the roles of servants and shuffling fools.

Cosby, Sammy Davis and later Whitney and Oprah benefitted from changing morals that allowed them to be looked at as real people and not stereotypes

bullshit, they were successful because they had talents, not because of the AA laws. Yes, societal change had something to do with it, but not one of the people I listed were helped by AA laws.

 

[Mac1958]

.

AA laws had their time and their place and they had their value.

But at some point "progressives" have to start looking ahead, not behind.

"Caring" can become counter-productive when it retards growth.

.

 

[martybegan]

everyone wants to help those who need help. Where in the USA today is the playing field not level? Do you want more affrimative action that penalizes the majorities?

I asked for specifics, you provided generalizations. What exactly do you want?

OK...let's look at where the playing field is not level
We have a wealthy class who get a disproportional say in how legislation is crafted and who it helps. Specific legislation includes tax structure, deductions, labor laws
Affirmative action was an immensely successful liberal program that helped all people. Yes, it did level the playing field

Did it help the people who got passed over due to adding points to the people who got in due to it?

It helped those who were never given an opportunity to fill management or Complex jobs. In a society where blacks were only allowed menial jobs and women were only allowed subservient jobs, affirmative action was necessary
Affirmative action worked

Why should one race be given special consideration to fill an opportunity over another even though they're LESS QUALIFIED?

Are you saying blacks are too STUPID to compete on a level playing field?

How in the FUCK did obama ever become president?

Good question

Let's look at the society that existed in the 60s
White males possessed all the leadership positions and skilled positions. They claimed it was because they were best qualified. Blacks were best suited for menial labor and women could be secretaries and nurses.
In deciding who was best qualified for a managerial position, white male executives universally decided that white males were best suited for managerial positions. After all, they had never seen a woman or a black in that position
Affirmative action gave women and minorities a chance to fill skilled positions and they proved they were able to handle it
Thank affirmative action if your wife or daughter is able to get a position that is not teacher, secretary, nurse or cashier

I notice you have still not answered my question.

Well?

 

[Redfish]

.

AA laws had their time and their place and they had their value.

But at some point "progressives" have to start looking ahead, not behind.

"Caring" can become counter-productive when it retards growth.

.

AA laws were discriminatory. Discrimination is never appropriate, no matter who is the victim.

 

[Mac1958]

.

AA laws had their time and their place and they had their value.

But at some point "progressives" have to start looking ahead, not behind.

"Caring" can become counter-productive when it retards growth.

.

AA laws were discrimatory. Discrimination is never appropriate, no matter who is the victim.

I don't disagree with that. Treating people differently because of the color of their skin is wrong.

In my view, there was a time when AA was simply the lesser of two evils, and sometimes that's where we find ourselves.

.

 

[Redfish]

.

AA laws had their time and their place and they had their value.

But at some point "progressives" have to start looking ahead, not behind.

"Caring" can become counter-productive when it retards growth.

.

AA laws were discrimatory. Discrimination is never appropriate, no matter who is the victim.

I don't disagree with that. Treating people differently because of the color of their skin is wrong.

In my view, there was a time when AA was simply the lesser of two evils, and sometimes that's where we find ourselves.

.

well, maybe. But correcting one injustice with another injustice does not solve anything.