The Palestinian Emirates "Solution"

[rylah]

Did you read the link?

I have. It can't work. It would be population centers (bantustans) cut off from the resources and distribution networks required to have a functioning economy. It would be similar to what we have now where the only "economy" is foreign aid.

This is what worked before and is what works in every country. Each city is the center of a support network.

The City State idea HAS worked though - it worked in Italy.

Links?

Rennaiscence history.

A city cannot stand on its own. It needs food, building materials, raw materials for manufacturing, markets for products. It has to somehow be connected to a larger distribution network.

Do You live in a city that provides its' own food or do You buy in a supermarket?
Are houses built from stones and wood in the area or do they usually use abroad manufactured materials?
Does Hi-Tech manufacturing depend on local materials?

This is the distribution network globally. Once they get their own govt in the Emirates they can develop any network...trucks move even today to and from Israel, no reason they can't move from one Emirate to another if they cooperate, and actually this can be an incentive to create that inner network of cooperation/distribution.

 

[rylah]

Coyote P F Tinmore Shusha RoccoR

I know for example that much of the furniture in Israel was brought from Gaza.
Arabs from the West Bank have a huge chunk, if not a monopoly on construction in Israel.

Americans might have a difficulty to comprehend how small is the territory, here it's a totally different economy.

What I'm talking about is mainly modern industry to push the society forward to integrate and be competent in the world economy, beside traditional small factories that can exist by their side.

Industries like, tourism, high-tech, cyber, medicine and scientific development etc...do not demand much territory and local resources, and a are capable of providing a higher standard of living.

Thoughts?

 

[danielpalos]

That position is simply too complicated for an Emir; it should require a Dey. A Dey may establish a Deylicate to ensure the delicate operations required for Peace in that region.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote P F Tinmore Shusha RoccoR

I know for example that much of the furniture in Israel was brought from Gaza.
Arabs from the West Bank have a huge chunk, if not a monopoly on construction in Israel.

Americans might have a difficulty to comprehend how small is the territory, here it's a totally different economy.

What I'm talking about is mainly modern industry to push the society forward to integrate and be competent in the world economy, beside traditional small factories that can exist by their side.

Industries like, tourism, high-tech, cyber, medicine and scientific development etc...do not demand much territory and local resources, and a are capable of providing a higher standard of living.

Thoughts?

I like the idea, but wonder how to get there...

 

[flacaltenn]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

I've searched for others advocating a more loosely controlled Palestine confederation. This GUY -- sounds reasonable NOW -- but his work was all I could I find on the concept about 5 or 6 ago. And I gotta say -- I do not TRUST his motives. He wrote an academic piece that sounds like (and this is difficult for me to admit) a Zionist Zealot. His ONLY motivation at the time for to benefit Israel.. See ====

The Eight State Solution by Mordechai Kedar | West Bank | Palestinian National Authority

He seems to have found "marketing points" to sell his idea that don't sound so one-sided. Maybe he's "moderated" but he's still not SELLING the vision of how valuable that real estate COULD BECOME. Because the history of Palestinians is not actually defined by "a map" or "a govt". And I'm CERTAIN that a "city-state" approach with transport/travel/infrastructure improvements that CONNECT all of these semi-autonomous would be a GREAT solution.

I've commented on how it's a unique opportunity to put the Palestinians in the MIDDLE of the Middle East several times. See links below. Was even gonna write it up and try to place it in a couple journals. If Trump took all that Wall money he's gonna waste and started a visionary "Palestine Trade Route" Infrastructure plan, he might get 2 Nobel prizes...


What Will Improve the Palestinian Economy?

Refugees and the right to return

Go look at a map of the major Pali Cities and distances involved. It's not even Colorado hiway scale. You could put a "loop" from Gaza and Egypt thru the Sinai -- up the Dead Sea coast/Jordan Valley with off ramps to Jordan and the Pali city centers. And continue all the way up to Lebanon and "God Willing" Syria and beyond some day. Relatively cheap price to END this festering sore.

 

[rylah]

Coyote P F Tinmore Shusha RoccoR

I know for example that much of the furniture in Israel was brought from Gaza.
Arabs from the West Bank have a huge chunk, if not a monopoly on construction in Israel.

Americans might have a difficulty to comprehend how small is the territory, here it's a totally different economy.

What I'm talking about is mainly modern industry to push the society forward to integrate and be competent in the world economy, beside traditional small factories that can exist by their side.

Industries like, tourism, high-tech, cyber, medicine and scientific development etc...do not demand much territory and local resources, and a are capable of providing a higher standard of living.

Thoughts?

I like the idea, but wonder how to get there...

When looking at the moon reflection in the water, don't mistake the reflection neither the finger pointing to it as the moon.

I was going to post a long response about politics of the region....better sum it up to:

(a) Make it clear that there're more than just 2 sides, and that it's a zero-sum game only for PLO/Hamas by definition and inertia. They're not the ones having the last word, ability or any weight compared to-

(b) the people and nations we can reach, that have more weight and authority in their word and signature - instead of talking about peace with warring Hamas/PLO fractions, we should establish solid connections with the people on the ground, the respected Sheikhs of the communities in the cities.
Instead of "peace between Palestinian Arabs and Israel will solve the whole of middle east", it the opposite - "normalization between Israel and Arab states will create the leverage and conditions for peace with the Palestinian Arabs".

(c) leave Hamas/PLO 2 choices - either shift the resources to the people and normalization, or become an irrelevant obstacle against the healthy developments in the whole region.

----------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's evident that both Israel and Arab states actively move towards that direction,much of it is not in the open yet, but the notion of a wider Israeli-Arab alliance is becoming more and more a basic natural development in the region, and a topic of daily political discourse.

Practically, in our small circle, we could actually make a list of concrete questions, suggestions and ask Dr. Kedar for a response.

 

[rylah]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

I've searched for others advocating a more loosely controlled Palestine confederation. This GUY -- sounds reasonable NOW -- but his work was all I could I find on the concept about 5 or 6 ago. And I gotta say -- I do not TRUST his motives. He wrote an academic piece that sounds like (and this is difficult for me to admit) a Zionist Zealot. His ONLY motivation at the time for to benefit Israel.. See ====

The Eight State Solution by Mordechai Kedar | West Bank | Palestinian National Authority

He seems to have found "marketing points" to sell his idea that don't sound so one-sided. Maybe he's "moderated" but he's still not SELLING the vision of how valuable that real estate COULD BECOME. Because the history of Palestinians is not actually defined by "a map" or "a govt". And I'm CERTAIN that a "city-state" approach with transport/travel/infrastructure improvements that CONNECT all of these semi-autonomous would be a GREAT solution.

I've commented on how it's a unique opportunity to put the Palestinians in the MIDDLE of the Middle East several times. See links below. Was even gonna write it up and try to place it in a couple journals. If Trump took all that Wall money he's gonna waste and started a visionary "Palestine Trade Route" Infrastructure plan, he might get 2 Nobel prizes...


What Will Improve the Palestinian Economy?

Refugees and the right to return

Go look at a map of the major Pali Cities and distances involved. It's not even Colorado hiway scale. You could put a "loop" from Gaza and Egypt thru the Sinai -- up the Dead Sea coast/Jordan Valley with off ramps to Jordan and the Pali city centers. And continue all the way up to Lebanon and "God Willing" Syria and beyond some day. Relatively cheap price to END this festering sore.

I like this idea a lot!
It relates to one of my questions about leverage, how to position this within a wider regional shift, rather than a single attempt to push another version of a solution on the market.

He might look like a zealot because his main efforts are not in talking to the west, but directly to Arabs in the region, and boy does he speak their language.
Since he came into the public arena, by his example Dr. Kedar managed to make big shifts in the way Israel communicates with the Arab world. Now Israelis have a variety of channels to talk to the Arab public directly, raise difficult questions and invite for an open conversation.
Today Israelis are regulars on Arab media, 10 years ago this would be a joke.

Back to Your proposed economic project, it might take a number of more years, maybe another decade - but a shift in the economic development of the region can be the symbolic monument a successful solution at work.

Dr Kedar position on cooperation with the neighbors is simple and clear - "what can You offer the Israelis?". "Peace" and normalization is not something to be waved in the air for baseless extortions, Israel has a lot to bring to the table for the benefit of the whole region, "what can You offer Israel?"

There's a tremendous potential for all involved in the idea You presented.
Certainly would like to hear Dr Kedar's analysis of such a proposition.

Q. Can You sketch such a map, with minimal efforts, just to make it easier for the discussion?

 

[danielpalos]

A Deylicate could expire naturally, or be continued as long as necessary.

 

[Shusha]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

 

[danielpalos]

Infrastructure is always good.

 

[rylah]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?

 

[Shusha]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?

Doesn't seem impossible to me.

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?

I'm actually gonna a write an article with the goal of getting this published. I'll rough out a map tonight. Roughly, ALL the neighbors cede a bit of land to build an elevated expressway. Roughly starts at the Egyptian Gate (both sides) at Gaza -- winds thru the Sinai (mostly unpopulated) -- up the Israeli side of the Dead Sea -- All with limited access. Then it goes up the Jordan River valley (maybe both sides eventually) with feeders into the semi-autonomous Palestinian city states and a route to East Jerusalem as well. Would connect to Jordan of course at two or more major roads. COULD continue to the N. extreme of Israel to connect Lebanon and potentially Syria and Iraq (not any time soon).

The RESULT is a Trade Route that connects the entire Arab Middle East. And these proposed Pali city states are at the HUB of all that trade. It requires VERY LITTLE of land ceded by Israel in places where it doesn't matter all that much..

Admin of this route would be jointly secured by Egypt, Jordan, Israel and whatever loose Palestinian Federation comes into existence. Does NOT require a UNITY Pali National Govt that's been missing for centuries. But it's an offer ANY resident of the area would be stupid to refuse. And the WORLD could certainly fund it out of petty cash compared to the cost of continuing the conflict. Gaza would have a REAL seaport, And an airport in the West Bank accessible by this route.

I calculated this about 400 to 700 miles of super hiway. With limited on/off access. And a couple bridges. It's ELEVATED to enhance security and minimize the footprint on the existing roads and land.

Check out the video that Rylah posted below Coyote. Your guy in the OP and I are not the ONLY ones thinking a different kind of solution. Not 1,2, or 8 states -- but a LIVABLE and productive solution..

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

 

[Shusha]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Might be a fair point if you would make it. Instead of just swinging by and dropping a map and the demonization of against Israel.

What is the difference between a bantustan and Monaco? Or the difference between a bantustan and sovereign First Nations peoples? Or a bantustan and Vatican City? Or a bantustan and Scotland?

Neither the size of the place nor the location of a place make a bantustan. What does?

 

[rylah]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?

I'm actually gonna a write an article with the goal of getting this published. I'll rough out a map tonight. Roughly, ALL the neighbors cede a bit of land to build an elevated expressway. Roughly starts at the Egyptian Gate (both sides) at Gaza -- winds thru the Sinai (mostly unpopulated) -- up the Israeli side of the Dead Sea -- All with limited access. Then it goes up the Jordan River valley (maybe both sides eventually) with feeders into the semi-autonomous Palestinian city states and a route to East Jerusalem as well. Would connect to Jordan of course at two or more major roads. COULD continue to the N. extreme of Israel to connect Lebanon and potentially Syria and Iraq (not any time soon).

The RESULT is a Trade Route that connects the entire Arab Middle East. And these proposed Pali city states are at the HUB of all that trade. It requires VERY LITTLE of land ceded by Israel in places where it doesn't matter all that much..

Admin of this route would be jointly secured by Egypt, Jordan, Israel and whatever loose Palestinian Federation comes into existence. Does NOT require a UNITY Pali National Govt that's been missing for centuries. But it's an offer ANY resident of the area would be stupid to refuse. And the WORLD could certainly fund it out of petty cash compared to the cost of continuing the conflict. Gaza would have a REAL seaport, And an airport in the West Bank accessible by this route.

I calculated this about 400 to 700 miles of super hiway. With limited on/off access. And a couple bridges. It's ELEVATED to enhance security and minimize the footprint on the existing roads and land.

Although I have some reservations about the main artery of the road going through Gaza and talking about and mentioning an airport and a seaport in the same breath, I'd like to see the article first.

This idea is principally based the same way if I understand You, looks impossible with Gaza under Hamas, but there're options:



USMB's Deal of the century"?

 

[rylah]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Weren't bantustans based on skin color?
This is not it...well only if You think that an Israeli passport suddenly changes ones skin and race.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?

I'm actually gonna a write an article with the goal of getting this published. I'll rough out a map tonight. Roughly, ALL the neighbors cede a bit of land to build an elevated expressway. Roughly starts at the Egyptian Gate (both sides) at Gaza -- winds thru the Sinai (mostly unpopulated) -- up the Israeli side of the Dead Sea -- All with limited access. Then it goes up the Jordan River valley (maybe both sides eventually) with feeders into the semi-autonomous Palestinian city states and a route to East Jerusalem as well. Would connect to Jordan of course at two or more major roads. COULD continue to the N. extreme of Israel to connect Lebanon and potentially Syria and Iraq (not any time soon).

The RESULT is a Trade Route that connects the entire Arab Middle East. And these proposed Pali city states are at the HUB of all that trade. It requires VERY LITTLE of land ceded by Israel in places where it doesn't matter all that much..

Admin of this route would be jointly secured by Egypt, Jordan, Israel and whatever loose Palestinian Federation comes into existence. Does NOT require a UNITY Pali National Govt that's been missing for centuries. But it's an offer ANY resident of the area would be stupid to refuse. And the WORLD could certainly fund it out of petty cash compared to the cost of continuing the conflict. Gaza would have a REAL seaport, And an airport in the West Bank accessible by this route.

I calculated this about 400 to 700 miles of super hiway. With limited on/off access. And a couple bridges. It's ELEVATED to enhance security and minimize the footprint on the existing roads and land.

Although I have some reservations about the main artery of the road going through Gaza and talking about and mentioning an airport and a seaport in the same breath, I'd like to see the article first.

This idea is principally based the same way if I understand You, looks impossible with Gaza under Hamas, but there're options:



"The deal of the century"?

I hear the Island would be in Israel's territorial waters. So it would be no different than now.

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?

I'm actually gonna a write an article with the goal of getting this published. I'll rough out a map tonight. Roughly, ALL the neighbors cede a bit of land to build an elevated expressway. Roughly starts at the Egyptian Gate (both sides) at Gaza -- winds thru the Sinai (mostly unpopulated) -- up the Israeli side of the Dead Sea -- All with limited access. Then it goes up the Jordan River valley (maybe both sides eventually) with feeders into the semi-autonomous Palestinian city states and a route to East Jerusalem as well. Would connect to Jordan of course at two or more major roads. COULD continue to the N. extreme of Israel to connect Lebanon and potentially Syria and Iraq (not any time soon).

The RESULT is a Trade Route that connects the entire Arab Middle East. And these proposed Pali city states are at the HUB of all that trade. It requires VERY LITTLE of land ceded by Israel in places where it doesn't matter all that much..

Admin of this route would be jointly secured by Egypt, Jordan, Israel and whatever loose Palestinian Federation comes into existence. Does NOT require a UNITY Pali National Govt that's been missing for centuries. But it's an offer ANY resident of the area would be stupid to refuse. And the WORLD could certainly fund it out of petty cash compared to the cost of continuing the conflict. Gaza would have a REAL seaport, And an airport in the West Bank accessible by this route.

I calculated this about 400 to 700 miles of super hiway. With limited on/off access. And a couple bridges. It's ELEVATED to enhance security and minimize the footprint on the existing roads and land.

Although I have some reservations about the main artery of the road going through Gaza and talking about and mentioning an airport and a seaport in the same breath, I'd like to see the article first.

This idea is principally based the same way if I understand You, looks impossible with Gaza under Hamas, but there're options:



"The deal of the century"?

Wouldn't connect to Gaza under Hamas. Not acceptable to Egypt or Jordan either. Just leave it dangling like a bunch of carrots on the Egypt side of Checkpoint and EVENTUALLY -- the Hamas issue will be gone.

BUT -- of course include the connect to a Gaza Seaport as a proposal PENDING the creation of a Gaza "city state" govt amenable to peace and prosperity and trade.

In fact -- dangle the construction of the WB Airport and the Gaza Sea port as part of the deal..

It COULD be "the deal of century" or of 3 centuries.. LOL... Folks have focused for too long on drawing lines. That's how the Brits screwed up the Mid East in the first place. It should be LIVABILITY and prosperity and trade and trust. And that's how get folks to focus on the DEAL and NOT "the map"..

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is a site which includes a map of the proposed Emirates.

Can You imagine how the road flacaltenn described would look on the map?

I'm actually gonna a write an article with the goal of getting this published. I'll rough out a map tonight. Roughly, ALL the neighbors cede a bit of land to build an elevated expressway. Roughly starts at the Egyptian Gate (both sides) at Gaza -- winds thru the Sinai (mostly unpopulated) -- up the Israeli side of the Dead Sea -- All with limited access. Then it goes up the Jordan River valley (maybe both sides eventually) with feeders into the semi-autonomous Palestinian city states and a route to East Jerusalem as well. Would connect to Jordan of course at two or more major roads. COULD continue to the N. extreme of Israel to connect Lebanon and potentially Syria and Iraq (not any time soon).

The RESULT is a Trade Route that connects the entire Arab Middle East. And these proposed Pali city states are at the HUB of all that trade. It requires VERY LITTLE of land ceded by Israel in places where it doesn't matter all that much..

Admin of this route would be jointly secured by Egypt, Jordan, Israel and whatever loose Palestinian Federation comes into existence. Does NOT require a UNITY Pali National Govt that's been missing for centuries. But it's an offer ANY resident of the area would be stupid to refuse. And the WORLD could certainly fund it out of petty cash compared to the cost of continuing the conflict. Gaza would have a REAL seaport, And an airport in the West Bank accessible by this route.

I calculated this about 400 to 700 miles of super hiway. With limited on/off access. And a couple bridges. It's ELEVATED to enhance security and minimize the footprint on the existing roads and land.

Although I have some reservations about the main artery of the road going through Gaza and talking about and mentioning an airport and a seaport in the same breath, I'd like to see the article first.

This idea is principally based the same way if I understand You, looks impossible with Gaza under Hamas, but there're options:



USMB's Deal of the century"?

Can't tell you how much I appreciate that video. That's the world I live in. Solving issues and making deals. There's been VERY little of that involved in any peace process to date.

THANK-YOU.. Will bookmark that if I write the article this summer..