The Argument for a Palestinian State

[Zebra]

Arab imperialists are simply afraid
other MENA nations follow Israel,
to liberation from the Arab yoke.

Arab imperialists are simply afraid
other MENA nations follow Israel,
to liberation from the Arab yoke.

i like that map!

 

[bendog]

Jordan has never had any legal sovereign claim to the West Bank. A State can't cede territory that doesn't belong to it; let alone cede territory that doesn't belong to it to an unknown, as-yet-non-existent, future State and its government.

On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 181 which envisaged the division of Palestine into three parts: an Arab State, a Jewish State and the City of Jerusalem. The proposed Arab State would include the central and part of western Galilee, with the town of Acre, the hill country of Samaria and Judea, an enclave at Jaffa, and the southern coast stretching from north of Isdud (now Ashdod) and encompassing what is now the Gaza Strip, with a section of desert along the Egyptian border. The proposed Jewish State would include the fertile Eastern Galilee, the Coastal Plain, stretching from Haifa to Rehovot and most of the Negev desert. The Jerusalem Corpus separatum was to include Bethlehem and the surrounding areas. The proposed Jewish State covered 56.47% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem) with a population of 498,000 Jews and 325,000 Arabs while the proposed Arab State covered 43.53% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem), with 807,000 Arab inhabitants and 10,000 Jewish inhabitants and in Jerusalem, an international trusteeship regime where the population was 100,000 Jews and 105,000 Arabs.[16]

In March 1948, the British Cabinet had agreed that the civil and military authorities in Palestine should make no effort to oppose the setting up of a Jewish State or a move into Palestine from Transjordan.[17] The United States, together with the United Kingdom, favoured the annexation by Transjordan. The UK preferred to permit King Abdullah to annex the territory at the earliest date, while the United States preferred to wait until after the conclusion of negotiations brokered by the Palestine Conciliation Commission.[18]

Entry of Transjordan forces into Mandate Palestine​

Following the End of the British Mandate for Palestine and Israel's declaration of independence on 14 May 1948, the Arab Legion, under the leadership of Sir John Bagot Glubb, known as Glubb Pasha, was ordered to enter Mandatory Palestine and secure the UN-designated Arab area.[

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You sound like a land thief

 

[Shusha]

On 29 November 1947 the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 181 which envisaged the division of Palestine into three parts: an Arab State, a Jewish State and the City of Jerusalem. The proposed Arab State would include the central and part of western Galilee, with the town of Acre, the hill country of Samaria and Judea, an enclave at Jaffa, and the southern coast stretching from north of Isdud (now Ashdod) and encompassing what is now the Gaza Strip, with a section of desert along the Egyptian border. The proposed Jewish State would include the fertile Eastern Galilee, the Coastal Plain, stretching from Haifa to Rehovot and most of the Negev desert. The Jerusalem Corpus separatum was to include Bethlehem and the surrounding areas. The proposed Jewish State covered 56.47% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem) with a population of 498,000 Jews and 325,000 Arabs while the proposed Arab State covered 43.53% of Mandatory Palestine (excluding Jerusalem), with 807,000 Arab inhabitants and 10,000 Jewish inhabitants and in Jerusalem, an international trusteeship regime where the population was 100,000 Jews and 105,000 Arabs.[16]

In March 1948, the British Cabinet had agreed that the civil and military authorities in Palestine should make no effort to oppose the setting up of a Jewish State or a move into Palestine from Transjordan.[17] The United States, together with the United Kingdom, favoured the annexation by Transjordan. The UK preferred to permit King Abdullah to annex the territory at the earliest date, while the United States preferred to wait until after the conclusion of negotiations brokered by the Palestine Conciliation Commission.[18]

Entry of Transjordan forces into Mandate Palestine​

Following the End of the British Mandate for Palestine and Israel's declaration of independence on 14 May 1948, the Arab Legion, under the leadership of Sir John Bagot Glubb, known as Glubb Pasha, was ordered to enter Mandatory Palestine and secure the UN-designated Arab area.[

Jordanian annexation of the West Bank - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You sound like a land thief

Wiki? Seriously?

Your claim was that Jordan ceded the territory to a non-existing future state. My response was that the territory was not under Jordanian sovereignty and therefore not Jordan's to cede AND that you can't cede territory to something that doesn't exist. Nothing in the above post refutes my position.

It sounds like you are now changing your position. (Which indicates to me that you don't actually have a position based on any understanding of international law but are running around the soccer field looking for ways you can "prove" the Jewish people are thieves). You now insist that UNGA 181 was the basis for territorial assignments that were legally binding on both the Jews and Arabs. Interesting claim. Easily enough refuted for a number of reasons, not the least by the fact that UNGA resolutions are not binding, even on members-states, let alone non-state groups.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your claim was that Jordan ceded the territory to a non-existing future state. My response was that the territory was not under Jordanian sovereignty and therefore not Jordan's to cede AND that you can't cede territory to something that doesn't exist. Nothing in the above post refutes my position.

And waiting until after you lost the territory to cede it would really be funny, if it happened.

It didn't.

 

[Rigby5]

A Palestinian state is inevitable. Biden should speed up the process.

I call on U.S. President Joe Biden to recognize a Palestinian state now.

thehill.com

There it is. Read it and understand the perspective.

But on the other hand,

• There is no legitimate entity that could be deemed a "State." Neither the Palestinian Authority nor Hamas has any electoral legitimacy. Neither has held an election in more than a decade, and the idea that any fair and free election could even be held in "Palestine" is a sick joke.
• Poll after poll indicates that fewer than 20% of "Palestinians" can envision a time, EVER, when a Palestinian State could live in peace alongside the Jewish State. You cannot legitimize a mob whose very reason for existence is the obliteration of a neighboring State.
• "Palestine" would be a "welfare state." It has no economy. It produces nothing of value. It would be entirely dependent on donations (whatever you call them) from other States and organizations for its existence.
• The "culture" of Palestine is an awful mess. Its children have been raised and taught in school that their highest aspiration would be to die in the act of killing a Jew or Jews.
• The "Palestinians" are universally shunned in the Arab/Muslim world. Its refugees are denied citizenship rights in almost every country to which they have fled over the years. Even those countries recognize that they are a cancer.

The ONLY reason why this Administration would today recognize a Palestinian State would be to win votes in Michigan and Minnesota. Such a blatant, cynical move would be...unsurprising.

Total lies.

Palestine has always been a collection of legitimate states, and it was unified into the sovereign state of Palestine in 1920, with the Treaty of San Remo and Treaty of Sevres.
It is Israel that is fake, illegal, and without historical or cultural precedence.

There has NEVER been any historical violence between Jews and Moslems, and the whole Mideast has been Moslem for almost 1500 years, with millions of Jews happily living there.
In fact, Islam is only a slight reformation of Judaism.

Palestine has always been productive.
Its agriculture was famous for oranges.
Israel has just ended all that by stealing all the farms, orchards, pastures, water, etc., and cut off all trade.

No Moslem country "shuns" Palestinians, and millions of Palestinians live in neighboring Moslem countries.

 

[Rigby5]

Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews.

That is a lie.
Arabs in Israel are not allowed to use the same hospitals, schools, or even roads.
Their homes are arbitrarily confiscated without any legal recourse.
Their cisterns have all been illegally destroyed.
Fewer than 1 million of the 13 million native Palestinian Arabs are allowed to vote in Israel, even though Israel occupies all of Palestine.

 

[Rigby5]

This is kinda the bottom line, isn't it? What is the status of the Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank? Are they citizens of Israel? (In which case, they, obviously, should have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. But this would also end the idea of a future State of Palestine.) OR are they citizens of Palestine? (In which case, could you argue that a State of Palestine already exists?)

Palestine was legally created in 1920 by the Treaty of Sevres and Treaty of San Remo.
That can not change unless the Palestinians vote to change it.

But it is Israel that is fake, not legal, and has not authority to exist at all.
It was an arbitrary proclamation by the UN, in order to satisfy a million illegal immigrants who had murdered the British peacekeepers by blowing up the King David Hotel.

 

[Shusha]

Total lies.

Palestine has always been a collection of legitimate states, and it was unified into the sovereign state of Palestine in 1920, with the Treaty of San Remo and Treaty of Sevres.
It is Israel that is fake, illegal, and without historical or cultural precedence.

There has NEVER been any historical violence between Jews and Moslems, and the whole Mideast has been Moslem for almost 1500 years, with millions of Jews happily living there.
In fact, Islam is only a slight reformation of Judaism.

Palestine has always been productive.
Its agriculture was famous for oranges.
Israel has just ended all that by stealing all the farms, orchards, pastures, water, etc., and cut off all trade.

No Moslem country "shuns" Palestinians, and millions of Palestinians live in neighboring Moslem countries.

One would be led to believe you have never actually read the treaties you rely on in this post. Have you been deceived, or do you just intend to deceive others?

 

[Rigby5]

And waiting until after you lost the territory to cede it would really be funny, if it happened.

It didn't.

Jordan never owned or wanted the West Bank.
They just stepped in to help protect and administer it after Menachim Begin murdered the British peacekeepers by blowing up the King David Hotel.

 

[Shusha]

Palestine was legally created in 1920 by the Treaty of Sevres and Treaty of San Remo.
That can not change unless the Palestinians vote to change it.

But it is Israel that is fake, not legal, and has not authority to exist at all.
It was an arbitrary proclamation by the UN, in order to satisfy a million illegal immigrants who had murdered the British peacekeepers by blowing up the King David Hotel.

But this doesn't answer my question, now, does it? What is the status of the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza? Are they citizens of Palestine or citizens of Israel?

 

[Rigby5]

One would be led to believe you have never actually read the treaties you rely on in this post. Have you been deceived, or do you just intend to deceive others?

The treaties are obvious.
The meaning of the British MANDATE for Palestine is that the British were saddled with the obligation to prepare the Palestinian government for self-rule, and that the British would only help defend and organize Palestine in the meantime.
That is what a "mandate" means.
A "mandate" is an obligation, with totally independent sovereignty being the goal.
It was a payback in order to reward the Palestinians for their help with Lawrence of Arabia, against the Ottman Empire.

If you want confirmation, then just read the Churchill Whitepape of 1922, that explains it, at the Avalon project.

The Avalon Project : British White Paper of June 1922

{...
The tension which has prevailed from time to time in Palestine is mainly due to apprehensions, which are entertained both by sections of the Arab and by sections of the Jewish population. These apprehensions, so far as the Arabs are concerned are partly based upon exaggerated interpretations of the meaning of the [Balfour] Declaration favouring the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine, made on behalf of His Majesty's Government on 2nd November, 1917.

Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used such as that Palestine is to become "as Jewish as England is English." His Majesty's Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated, as appears to be feared by the Arab deegation, the disappearance or the subordination of the Arabic population, language, or culture in Palestine. They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded `in Palestine.' In this connection it has been observed with satisfaction that at a meeting of the Zionist Congress, the supreme governing body of the Zionist Organization, held at Carlsbad in September, 1921, a resolution was passed expressing as the official statement of Zionist aims "the determination of the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development."

It is also necessary to point out that the Zionist Commission in Palestine, now termed the Palestine Zionist Executive, has not desired to possess, and does not possess, any share in the general administration of the country. Nor does the special position assigned to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population, and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any degree in its government.

Further, it is contemplated that the status of all citizens of Palestine in the eyes of the law shall be Palestinian, and it has never been intended that they, or any section of them, should possess any other juridical status. So far as the Jewish population of Palestine are concerned it appears that some among them are apprehensive that His Majesty's Government may depart from the policy embodied in the Declaration of 1917. It is necessary, therefore, once more to affirm that these fears are unfounded, and that that Declaration, re affirmed by the Conference of the Principle Allied Powers at San Remo and again in the Treaty of Sevres, is not susceptible of change.
...}

The intent obviously was always an independent and sovereign Arab Palestine, with just facilitated Jewish immigration to a homeland for them, inside of an independent Arab Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

The treaties are obvious.

We agree.

The meaning of the British MANDATE for Palestine is that the British were saddled with the obligation to prepare the Palestinian government for self-rule, and that the British would only help defend and organize Palestine in the meantime.
That is what a "mandate" means.
A "mandate" is an obligation, with totally independent sovereignty being the goal.

Yes, exactly. Sovereignty for whom? What do the treaties say?

 

[Rigby5]

But this doesn't answer my question, now, does it? What is the status of the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza? Are they citizens of Palestine or citizens of Israel?

There is no legal entity of Israel.
Israel was illegally created by illegal immigrants massacring hundreds of native villages like Deir Yassin.
You can not legally create a legal country by committing crimes.

But if we want to pretend there is an Israel, it can not possibly include Jerusalem or the West Bank, and would have to be limited to the 1948 UN partition.
The UN clearly made it illegal to gain territory by the use of force, like the 1967 invasion of Jerusalem and the West Bank.

But if Israel is going to illegally occupy all of Palestine as they have, then they have to grant citizenship to all those who live under their control.

 

[Rigby5]

We agree.

Yes, exactly. Sovereignty for whom? What do the treaties say?

The treaties are clear that the sovereignty of Palestine is for the natives, and immigration was to be limited to only30,000 Jews a year, not the 300,000 a year who illegally smuggled in weapons.

 

[Rawley]

That is a lie.
Arabs in Israel are not allowed to use the same hospitals, schools, or even roads.
Their homes are arbitrarily confiscated without any legal recourse.
Their cisterns have all been illegally destroyed.
Fewer than 1 million of the 13 million native Palestinian Arabs are allowed to vote in Israel, even though Israel occupies all of Palestine.

LOL By any chance you don't live in Dearborn, do you?

'Death to America' chants in Dearborn echo across social media, draw local condemnation

Chants of "death to America" and "death to Israel" made at a pro-Palestine rally in Dearborn captured worldwide attention and get condemned by groups.

www.detroitnews.com

 

[Shusha]

The treaties are clear that the sovereignty of Palestine is for the natives, and immigration was to be limited to only30,000 Jews a year, not the 300,000 a year who illegally smuggled in weapons.

(all emphasis mine)

Treaty of Sevres:
ARTICLE 95.
The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Covenant of the League of Nations (referenced above):
ARTICLE 22.
To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.

The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

Mandate for Palestine:
PREAMBLE. (excerpt)
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

ARTICLE 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ARTICLE 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ARTICLE 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

ARTICLE 11.
The Administration of Palestine shall take all necessary measures to safeguard the interests of the community in connection with the development of the country, and, subject to any international obligations accepted by the Mandatory, shall have full power to provide for public ownership or control of any of the natural resources of the country or of the public works, services and utilities established or to be established therein. It shall introduce a land system appropriate to the needs of the country, having regard, among other things, to the desirability of promoting the close settlement and intensive cultivation of the land.

The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country, in so far as these matters are not directly undertaken by the Administration. Any such arrangements shall provide that no profits distributed by such agency, directly or indirectly, shall exceed a reasonable rate of interest on the capital, and any further profits shall be utilised by it for the benefit of the country in a manner approved by the Administration.



On the contrary, the treaties are clear that the people who are granted the right to self-determination and national re-constitution (by right and not on sufferance) in Palestine are the Jewish people, who are directed to closely settle the land, develop the country, and become self-governing.

 

[Shusha]

There is no legal entity of Israel.

Ridiculous. Israel was established with exactly the same legal process and through the same legal premises as Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, as well as dozens of other states in the post-empire, post-war period. Israel was the only State whose establishment was illegally interfered with by other states.

But if we want to pretend there is an Israel, it can not possibly include Jerusalem or the West Bank, and would have to be limited to the 1948 UN partition.

UNGA 181 is not binding. And there is no basis in any treaty or agreement (until Oslo) that there is a legally defined boundary between Israel and any other state (or pseudo-state).

The UN clearly made it illegal to gain territory by the use of force,

Which is exactly why Israel is the only State that can claim sovereignty within the entirety of Palestine. No other State can gain territory belonging to Israel by the use of force.

But if Israel is going to illegally occupy all of Palestine as they have, then they have to grant citizenship to all those who live under their control.

By definition, this would mean applying Israeli sovereignty to the entire territory, thus ending the occupation. I have no problem with that. But that ends any idea of the creation of another state in the territory. Is that what you are arguing for?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

No Moslem country "shuns" Palestinians, and millions of Palestinians live in neighboring Moslem countries.

That is good to hear.
How many Palestinians has Egypt allowed to enter since October 2023?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Jordan never owned or wanted the West Bank.
They just stepped in to help protect and administer it after Menachim Begin murdered the British peacekeepers by blowing up the King David Hotel.

Jordan never owned or wanted the West Bank.

Why did they annex it in 1950?

 

[Rigby5]

We agree.

Yes, exactly. Sovereignty for whom? What do the treaties say?

The treaties said the natives, which is the Palestinian Arabs.
It could NOT mean the half million illegal Jewish immigrants because they were not there yet and were never supposed to be allowed there.

And again, the Balfour Declaration also was clearly referring to a Jewish homeland inside of a independent native Palestine nation.