The Argument for a Palestinian State

[Shusha]

You see, this is where we got to stop you.

Of course, you "got to stop me". You hold the same sense of Palestinian identity. It is simply a movement formed around the idea of denying the Jewish people (rights, history, homeland, indigeneity, self-determination). It has no substance outside of that. That is the problem.

Palestine is not the homeland of European Jews.

Eretz Israel is the homeland of the entire collective of the Jewish people. This is absolutely indisputable. If you dig in the land, you find Jewish history and Jewish culture. The location of their dispossession and diaspora is irrelevant.

It's a settler state.

A people can not "settle" their own homeland. That is called return. Israel is the return to and decolonization of the Jewish people in their homeland.

There were people on that land, they had been there for centuries.

Yes. In particular, there were TWO distinct collectives of peoples on that land: the Jewish people (as evidenced by their cultural markers including language, religious beliefs, holidays, and other) and the Arabic people (as evidenced by their cultural markers including language, religious beliefs, holidays, and other).

They had no more right to that land than I have, claiming land in the Lahn Valley in Germany that my great-grandparents lived on.

You are conflating personal title to land with collective rights to self-determination and sovereignty. The fact that your great-grandparents no longer live in the Lahn Valley in Germany removes their legal right (and the right of all their descendants) to live on that property (assuming they sold it or otherwise legally disposed of it), but that does not affect the legal sovereign claim of Germany to that valley, nor the rights of the German people to self-determination in their homeland.

Further, if you carry your argument without hypocrisy, then the "Palestinians" in diaspora, since they no longer live on that land, have no rights to that territory, and no right to live there. An argument that "European Palestinian" descendants have a right to return in perpetuity, while "European Jewish" descendants have no such right is a blatant double-standard. And notice how people who hold this double standard never bring up all the other Jewish people in diaspora.

The people who live there now ... have the right to that land.

Well, that would be the Israelis.

In the decades since, people in my family have 1) Stopped Speaking German, 2) Intermarried with non-Germans, and 3) Built lives in another country.

Again. You are conflating individual rights with collective rights. The fact that your family stopped speaking German, intermarried, and built lives in other countries does not remove the collective right of self-determination from the German people in the German homeland.

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

And, again, carried through without hypocrisy, it would mean that the Palestinians who no longer speak Palestinian, who intermarried, and who have build lives in other countries, have no right to return to a territory, even if that territory is recognized in the international community as a national homeland for a collective of peoples (which, arguably, Palestine is not).

Your entire argument is incoherent, applying different standards where it suits your narrative. Either there is a right to self-determination, or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a collective right to return, or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a right to territorial integrity or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Sort it out. Demonstrate how you apply it equally to both sides.


And you did not address my main point. Which is the vision of a Palestinian people in the future which is not built on the destruction of the either the Jewish people or the Jewish state as the ONLY avenue to Palestinians self-determination and sovereignty.

 

[expat500]

Only the ones who live withing the 1967 borders... Quit lying.

Those aren’t borders. They are armistice lines.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Of course, you "got to stop me". You hold the same sense of Palestinian identity. It is simply a movement formed around the idea of denying the Jewish people (rights, history, homeland, indigeneity, self-determination). It has no substance outside of that. That is the problem.

Eretz Israel is the homeland of the entire collective of the Jewish people. This is absolutely indisputable. If you dig in the land, you find Jewish history and Jewish culture. The location of their dispossession and diaspora is irrelevant.

A people can not "settle" their own homeland. That is called return. Israel is the return to and decolonization of the Jewish people in their homeland.

Yes. In particular, there were TWO distinct collectives of peoples on that land: the Jewish people (as evidenced by their cultural markers including language, religious beliefs, holidays, and other) and the Arabic people (as evidenced by their cultural markers including language, religious beliefs, holidays, and other).

You are conflating personal title to land with collective rights to self-determination and sovereignty. The fact that your great-grandparents no longer live in the Lahn Valley in Germany removes their legal right (and the right of all their descendants) to live on that property (assuming they sold it or otherwise legally disposed of it), but that does not affect the legal sovereign claim of Germany to that valley, nor the rights of the German people to self-determination in their homeland.

Further, if you carry your argument without hypocrisy, then the "Palestinians" in diaspora, since they no longer live on that land, have no rights to that territory, and no right to live there. An argument that "European Palestinian" descendants have a right to return in perpetuity, while "European Jewish" descendants have no such right is a blatant double-standard. And notice how people who hold this double standard never bring up all the other Jewish people in diaspora.

Well, that would be the Israelis.


Again. You are conflating individual rights with collective rights. The fact that your family stopped speaking German, intermarried, and built lives in other countries does not remove the collective right of self-determination from the German people in the German homeland.

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

And, again, carried through without hypocrisy, it would mean that the Palestinians who no longer speak Palestinian, who intermarried, and who have build lives in other countries, have no right to return to a territory, even if that territory is recognized in the international community as a national homeland for a collective of peoples (which, arguably, Palestine is not).

Your entire argument is incoherent, applying different standards where it suits your narrative. Either there is a right to self-determination, or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a collective right to return, or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a right to territorial integrity or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Sort it out. Demonstrate how you apply it equally to both sides.


And you did not address my main point. Which is the vision of a Palestinian people in the future which is not built on the destruction of the either the Jewish people or the Jewish state as the ONLY avenue to Palestinians self-determination and sovereignty.

Basically, he is explaining why there can't be a Palestinian state: because the Palestinians are not willing to live in peace with Israel/Jews, and he is giving you all the reasons he believes they will not live in peace with Israel/Jews.

 

[JoeB131]

Of course, you "got to stop me". You hold the same sense of Palestinian identity. It is simply a movement formed around the idea of denying the Jewish people (rights, history, homeland, indigeneity, self-determination). It has no substance outside of that. That is the problem.

They have every right... in the European countries they came from. I'd have no problem having a Jewish State in Europe. The Europeans might have a problem with it, of course. So I guess it's nice you found a weaker people you could beat up on.

Eretz Israel is the homeland of the entire collective of the Jewish people. This is absolutely indisputable. If you dig in the land, you find Jewish history and Jewish culture. The location of their dispossession and diaspora is irrelevant.

If I dig, I will also find evidence of the Philistines, Ammonites, Moabites, Aramites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Seljuks, and Ottomans.

You don't get a right to something because a book of bronze age fairy tales says you do.

A people can not "settle" their own homeland. That is called return. Israel is the return to and decolonization of the Jewish people in their homeland.

Nope, when you left, you gave it up. Someone else took over, and it's theirs now.

Yes. In particular, there were TWO distinct collectives of peoples on that land: the Jewish people (as evidenced by their cultural markers including language, religious beliefs, holidays, and other) and the Arabic people (as evidenced by their cultural markers including language, religious beliefs, holidays, and other).

Actually, Islam and Judaism come from the same tree of the Abrahamic Religions. Seems to be that if there are only 20 million Jews and 1.5 Billion Muslims, God likes the Muslims better. Of course, arguing over who an imaginary sky fairy gave a strip of desert to is absurd on it's face.

Further, if you carry your argument without hypocrisy, then the "Palestinians" in diaspora, since they no longer live on that land, have no rights to that territory, and no right to live there. An argument that "European Palestinian" descendants have a right to return in perpetuity, while "European Jewish" descendants have no such right is a blatant double-standard. And notice how people who hold this double standard never bring up all the other Jewish people in diaspora.

I think it has more to do with TIME. Palestinian diaspora can track their claim back to a person within the last century that was displaced by Zionist Aggression. The Europeans are just a bunch of people who adopted that religion, losing their original culture. No one spoke Hebrew as an operational language in 1948. They spoke Yiddish and a bunch of other local languages of the countries they lived in.

Nor were the European Jews all that interested in going back to Palestine, until Hitler tried to exterminate them.

Your entire argument is incoherent, applying different standards where it suits your narrative. Either there is a right to self-determination, or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a collective right to return, or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Either there is a right to territorial integrity or there is not. You can't have it both ways. Sort it out. Demonstrate how you apply it equally to both sides.

Okay, here's how I do it. The Palestinians get their country back, and we set aside a slab of Eastern Europe to be the new Jewish Homeland. After all, that's where they came from. Or if the US is really so keen on a Jewish Homeland, we can give them one of our slightly used states, like Wyoming. In fact, that would probably be better, because then whoever hates them would have to fight their way through 3-6 American states to get to them. Everyone wins.

 

[Shusha]

Basically, he is explaining why there can't be a Palestinian state: because the Palestinians are not willing to live in peace with Israel/Jews, and he is giving you all the reasons he believes they will not live in peace with Israel/Jews.

Yes. AND, importantly, he is giving the same arguments that the Arab "Palestinians" have been giving for decades.

 

[Shusha]

They have every right... in the European countries they came from. I'd have no problem having a Jewish State in Europe. The Europeans might have a problem with it, of course. So I guess it's nice you found a weaker people you could beat up on.

If I dig, I will also find evidence of the Philistines, Ammonites, Moabites, Aramites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Seljuks, and Ottomans.

You don't get a right to something because a book of bronze age fairy tales says you do.

Nope, when you left, you gave it up. Someone else took over, and it's theirs now.

Actually, Islam and Judaism come from the same tree of the Abrahamic Religions. Seems to be that if there are only 20 million Jews and 1.5 Billion Muslims, God likes the Muslims better. Of course, arguing over who an imaginary sky fairy gave a strip of desert to is absurd on it's face.

I think it has more to do with TIME. Palestinian diaspora can track their claim back to a person within the last century that was displaced by Zionist Aggression. The Europeans are just a bunch of people who adopted that religion, losing their original culture. No one spoke Hebrew as an operational language in 1948. They spoke Yiddish and a bunch of other local languages of the countries they lived in.

Nor were the European Jews all that interested in going back to Palestine, until Hitler tried to exterminate them.

Okay, here's how I do it. The Palestinians get their country back, and we set aside a slab of Eastern Europe to be the new Jewish Homeland. After all, that's where they came from. Or if the US is really so keen on a Jewish Homeland, we can give them one of our slightly used states, like Wyoming. In fact, that would probably be better, because then whoever hates them would have to fight their way through 3-6 American states to get to them. Everyone wins.

You are taking an already incoherent argument and making it more ridiculous.

A couple quick thoughts:

Nope, when you left, you gave it up. Someone else took over, and it's theirs now.

The Palestinians get their country back ...

That is a square circle if I have ever seen one.

...we set aside a slab of Eastern Europe to be the new Jewish Homeland. After all, that's where they came from.

How about we set aside a slab of Eastern Arabia for the new Palestinian homeland.

Or if the US is really so keen on a Jewish Homeland, we can give them one of our slightly used states, like Wyoming.

Or, alternatively, Uganda is lovely this time of year. Why not establish a homeland for Palestinians there?


Your bizarre double standards are mind-boggling. And you have yet to address my relevant point on this thread -- a positive vision of a Palestinian future, rather than the destruction of Israel.

 

[Shusha]

Again, bottom line: You can't build self-determination and sovereignty if you can't imagine it.

 

[JoeB131]

Your bizarre double standards are mind-boggling. And you have yet to address my relevant point on this thread -- a positive vision of a Palestinian future, rather than the destruction of Israel.

Actually, I can't see anything more positive than when the Zionist Entity is thrown on the scrapheap of history along with Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How about we set aside a slab of Eastern Arabia for the new Palestinian homeland.

Yes!

 

[Libby von H]

A Palestinian state is inevitable. Biden should speed up the process.

I call on U.S. President Joe Biden to recognize a Palestinian state now.

thehill.com

There it is. Read it and understand the perspective.

But on the other hand,

• There is no legitimate entity that could be deemed a "State." Neither the Palestinian Authority nor Hamas has any electoral legitimacy. Neither has held an election in more than a decade, and the idea that any fair and free election could even be held in "Palestine" is a sick joke.
• Poll after poll indicates that fewer than 20% of "Palestinians" can envision a time, EVER, when a Palestinian State could live in peace alongside the Jewish State. You cannot legitimize a mob whose very reason for existence is the obliteration of a neighboring State.
• "Palestine" would be a "welfare state." It has no economy. It produces nothing of value. It would be entirely dependent on donations (whatever you call them) from other States and organizations for its existence.
• The "culture" of Palestine is an awful mess. Its children have been raised and taught in school that their highest aspiration would be to die in the act of killing a Jew or Jews.
• The "Palestinians" are universally shunned in the Arab/Muslim world. Its refugees are denied citizenship rights in almost every country to which they have fled over the years. Even those countries recognize that they are a cancer.

The ONLY reason why this Administration would today recognize a Palestinian State would be to win votes in Michigan and Minnesota. Such a blatant, cynical move would be...unsurprising.

Islam has storehouses of great wealth, if they wanted to help those people they EASILY could

 

[JoeB131]

Islam has storehouses of great wealth, if they wanted to help those people they EASILY could

The west can set aside wealth for the Jews, and white people need to stop trying to colonize other people's countries.

 

[rylah]

Arab imperialists suffer from cognitive dissonance.

Those who say "European Jews" -
to deny Jews as a foreign race/skin color,
avoid the fact the majority of Israelis are refugees
from the same countries that the Arabs came from.

Those who say "Arab Jews" -
to deny Jews have distinct national rights,
avoid the fact those very MENA Jews in Israel,
were persecuted and expelled for not being "Arab enough".

However, this patronizing attitude, assuming Arabs have exclusive
rights over several continents, points back to the only common
denominator in all Middle East conflicts - Arab Imperialism.

 

[rylah]

 

[JoeB131]

Those who say "European Jews" -
to deny Jews as a foreign race/skin color,
avoid the fact the majority of Israelis are refugees
from the same countries that the Arabs came from.

Well, not really. You see, after 2000 years, you really can't claim that identity anymore. Not after 2000 years of intermarrying with other Europeans, adopting European clothes, European Customs, European Languages, etc. At that point, you are a European COSPLAYING as a Judean.

Those who say "Arab Jews" -
to deny Jews have distinct national rights,
avoid the fact those very MENA Jews in Israel,
were persecuted and expelled for not being "Arab enough".

Well, I think it has more to do with them being sellouts and collaborators. There's a reason why we use Quisling's name in a derogatory way.

However, this patronizing attitude, assuming Arabs have exclusive
rights over several continents, points back to the only common
denominator in all Middle East conflicts - Arab Imperialism.

Um, not really. In fact, the one thing that unites the Arab World is a hatred of Zionists. Also, not all Arabs are Muslims, and not all Muslims are Arabs.

 

[rylah]

Well, not really. You see, after 2000 years, you really can't claim that identity anymore. Not after 2000 years of intermarrying with other Europeans, adopting European clothes, European Customs, European Languages, etc. At that point, you are a European COSPLAYING as a Judean.



Well, I think it has more to do with them being sellouts and collaborators. There's a reason why we use Quisling's name in a derogatory way.



Um, not really. In fact, the one thing that unites the Arab World is a hatred of Zionists. Also, not all Arabs are Muslims, and not all Muslims are Arabs.

Arab imperialists are simply afraid
other MENA nations follow Israel,
to liberation from the Arab yoke.

 

[JoeB131]

Arab imperialists are simply afraid
other MENA nations follow Israel,
to liberation from the Arab yoke.

yeah, um, we tried that when George Dubya did his "Crusade" thing. It didn't go well.

 

[rylah]

yeah, um, we tried that when George Dubya did his "Crusade" thing. It didn't go well.

Yet, you want to dictate Israel how to manage their affairs,
and degrade the region fueling the Arab crusade?

 

[JoeB131]

Yet, you want to dictate Israel how to manage their affairs,
and degrade the region fueling the Arab crusade?

Uh, as long as the Zionist squatters keep insisting on getting American Aid to fight their wars and keep insisting that we send troops over there to protect them, I think it's a discussion that America ought to have.

Do we really want to subsidize religious fantasies with American Blood and Treasure?

I say... no.

 

[0311]

There are already Russian bots here, so I figure Israel is doing the same thing.

 

[Zebra]

That plan has been offered to the Palestinians many times and they always refuse it. They want all the land and will accept nothing less. Just for the sake of discussion let's say a deal gets made and borders are set for a shiny new sovereign Palestine. What happens if, once they've gotten their state they begin shooting Jews again? There is no reason to believe they would stop.

true!