The Cosmological Arguments for God's Existence

[buttercup]

all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues...

(I think everyone should take a few minutes and watch this video... it's sooooo good!)

 

[Hollie]

I was listening to a woman caller regarding emotional distress she faced when realizing that Religion was a crock of shit.

She said she had felt so empty at first, and that was because she thought she lost purpose...thought that, since her Religion was untrue, there's just no purpose to living.

Then her and the host shared stories of realizing that life was more invigorating once it dawned on them that they're free to decide their own purpose. The simple realization released some gigantic burden off of their shoulders...and made them happy, and focused.

Freedom is beautiful, like that. When I decided my purpose, everything started to click for me as well and its been fulfilling ever since, I really have to say.

What a Christian has is not religion but a relationship. Religion doesn't save anybody, but the Messiah becomes one's brother and the Father becomes the saved individual's eternal Father. The Holy Spirit becomes one's comforter and still small voice...

I have freedom from worry about doing this and that --- and being this and that --- and saying this and that. I have freedom from worry and fear. I have a real Father in heaven who loves me.

That's great, and mind you this is a debate forum, a discussion forum...and so beliefs are challenged here ----- and I dont share yours and actually find them quite ridiculous...BUT, I think that it's probably good that you have yourself some sort of beacon like that.

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid, however, I will continue to point you to the Savior because without GOD there life and death are empty and meaningless.

My life has a point, its not "empty and meaningless"...and so too will my death. The point is what you, the sentient being decide. Its what you, the driver of that meat-wagon decides. Thats the purpose of life: whatever one you gave it.

Even WITH belief in scripture, ala free will it becomes YOUR decision in that context as well. In both world-views, YOU decide the point.

My beliefs are things that I have reason to find accurate...if there's a point to be had in that.. its to seek knowledge and be properly skeptical. To the beliefs, in and of themselves having a "point?" Im sure some do and some dont...thats just an odd comment to begin with. Id be glad to discuss the point of any one of them, though...to the extent which they have 1.

Without GOD you might as well never have existed, and in a hundred years (if CHRIST tarries) --- you will be just another forgotten cog.

If the Shia Islamist Mahdi arrives first, well, now what?

 

[BreezeWood]

So its really about ego and your fear of death.

How so? I certainly don't consider myself either worthy or perfect. Do you wish to die?

I don't consider myself perfect either. I think to consider myself unworthy (unworthy of what?), is a prescription for a maladjusted personality (and I'm not suggesting that you are maladjusted).

I think that one result of not adhering to the proscription of an ideology that promises eternal damnation for not following the ideology can have serious emotional consequences. I cannot logically resolve a vengeful, vicious god. “His” message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. He can wash away all sins if he wants to. He doesn't want to. Thus he permits the eternal condemnation of most of his children. If his concern was truly safety, he'd change his behavior to one that really embraces safety.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on a perfect and ultimate and unlimited god. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile a god who establishes amorality as morality.

GOD is love and that love is eternal. However, GOD is also just and perfect. The reality is that GOD and imperfection cannot exist in the same space. It is one's sin that separates one from GOD and not GOD perfection that separates GOD from man. God will is not to make anyone live with HIM; however, hell is the place that exists devoid of GOD's influence. And those that hate GOD's influence will find an existence without GOD is hell indeed.

I'm not so sure about the "god is love" statement. These are the same gods who wiped most of humanity from the planet because they were a disappointment. That is not an attribute of a just and perfect god.

I guess the notion of justice / injustice defeats the purpose of the eternal sacrifice... that sacrifice is for sins against God (as per Christian theology) but what about man against man??? Who pays the price and who gets rewards??

That was the point of the faith (rewards in an afterlife) and the promise of religion in the first place! And my overwhelming experience is that believers find it very easy to believe because the dynamic of the belief system makes you feel good about choosing "correctly" and it addresses your concerns about mortality. It just doesn't back them up with any authority.

It's not pleasant to think there's no "ultimate justice" out there. It sucks to realize that a dead Hitler is pretty much beyond suffering for his cruelties. But it's the truth. And we need the truth to function properly, to explore, and learn. Our time is short, and we are beings that want to know what our universe is like, what it doesn't. how it works.

For a limited time only, of course.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

.

God brought the Flood not because man was a disappointment, but because man was so violent and did nothing but evil continually. The simple truth seems to me is that unless GOD saved Noah and his family, there would have been no one left to save, and GOD could not allow that.

the Almighty gave humanity a second chance ...

noah followed the religion of antiquity, the triumph of good vs evil, before its abandonment by the forthcoming desert religions ... the 1st century was its reenactment where the follower was the one killed, the perpetrators and their injustice lives to this day. the rainbow is not your friend nipper.

 

[ding]

Well, I find your beliefs pointless, empty and stupid

So what? You believe in sky daddies and zombie kings. You reject the most robust scientific theories known to man. Who gives a shit what you think about anyone's beliefs?

Like what?

It seems to me that you have been rejecting the most robust scientific theories known to man.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Of course, that doesn't make Christians incapable of errors in judgement.

Haha, yeah, I love that cheap, dusty old bait and switch. Cracks me up every time. This is the "quarter from behind the ear", for your brand of charlatan.

You aren't just asserting the possibility or occasional occurence of error. You are alleging the entire body of accepted science is in error, as are all who accept it. Who are you trying to fool? Yourself?

Your dimestore parlor tricks wont work, here. Look at poor ding...he's pulling quarters, nickels, AND pennies from behind people's ears, and he's bombing badly.

 

[ding]

Beliefs not worth speaking out loud are beliefs not worth having?

How old do you believe the earth and universe are?

So does that mean that I have to assume you do not read the Bible? You admitted you didn't read Genesis, but think it's allegorical and even posted a ridiculous one-page paper on it.

Next, I suppose there are many things you believe about Catholicism, but you do not speak with the believers. Instead, you talk religion and ethics with atheists. What do you expect them to provide? Their atheism? Why not own what you believe and defend it? I admitted I do not know all about Catholic dogma and someone who knows would run rings around me. I've discussed with others here. Even if you just knew what Pope Francis knows and supported it by explaining what he is saying then that would make you seem more knowledgeable. Yet, you seem to deny what he has said.

Anyway, if the age of the earth and universe is important to you, then you should compare what the fake science of evolution says versus what the real science says. Which side provides the better evidence?

Here is what God said about the age of Earth and universe and that is we will never know exactly how old. He said some things he will keep to himself. Thus, we will never really know.

Now what do I believe? I believe in a young universe and Earth because of the uniform temperature of the universe. For the Earth, it has a great many bent rocks. Didn't I state the uniform temperature of 2.7 K degrees already throughout the universe? Or did that just go over your .

I skipped everything but the last paragraph.

How young? Can you ballpark it for me?

Since you just skipped and didn't answer my questions, you just proved my point of being a dingbat, asshat, Catholic who doesn't read the Bible, a gay sinner, and serious Dunning-Kruger afflicted personality . What else is wrong with you?

Am I correct in assuming you believe God created the universe was created 6000 years or so ago and that how it was created was pretty much how it looks today?

In other words, there was no Big Bang, the elements greater than hydrogen and helium were not created through supernovas, there was no evolution, no dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago, everything we see today was how it was when God created creation?

I don't believe the Universe was created as it appears today. I believe after the Fall of man the entire Universe began to decay. That decay eventually resulted in meteor/asteroid strikes, that eventually resulted in the FLOOD, the fracturing of the earth's surface, mountain building and ice ages. In fact, I believe that changes occurred far faster than anyone today cares to imagine --- and that's why people are so upset about climate change, etc. They actually believe man can fix our environment. Only GOD can --- as HE did in the past --- if it suits HIM.

Ok. So why would it look like it has existed for billions of years?

 

[ding]

Of course, that doesn't make Christians incapable of errors in judgement.

Haha, yeah, I love that cheap bait and switch. Cracks me up every time. This is the "quarter from behind the ear", for your brand of charlatan.

You aren't just asserting the possibility or occasional occurence of error. You are alleging the entire body of solid science is in error, as are all who accept it.

Your dimestore parlor tricks wont work, here.

Again, I have seen you do this repeatedly with me.

 

[BreezeWood]

... aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds.

the nonsense is yours ...


- the past and future directions of time are symmetrical ...

as proven through the progression of evolution - there are four seasons, ringtone is the last day of winter.

 

[ding]

... aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds.

the nonsense is yours ...


- the past and future directions of time are symmetrical ...

as proven through the progression of evolution - there are four seasons, ringtone is the last day of winter.

Yes, but not eternal into the past.

The universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago from nothing.

 

[idb]

Exactly!!
What happened to Faith?

The definition of faith is putting complete trust in something or someone. Would you put complete trust in something or someone without good reason?

Without good reason...break that down for me.

Do you believe in God?

If so, do you believe you have a good reason to believe in God?

If you have faith, then why do you need to empirically prove the existence of a god?
If you have faith then...god exists because you believe she does.

Because faith and reason are inseparable sisters. It would make no sense to continue to have faith in something or someone for no good reason.

I agree with you and yet...here you are.

 

[BreezeWood]

... aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds.

the nonsense is yours ...


- the past and future directions of time are symmetrical ...

as proven through the progression of evolution - there are four seasons, ringtone is the last day of winter.

Yes, but not eternal into the past.

The universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago from nothing.

.

The universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago from nothing.

- from nothing ...

no bing, the moment of singularity is a cyclical event, our universe was the reintroduction of matter from the release of compressed energy.

 

[ding]

... aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds.

the nonsense is yours ...


- the past and future directions of time are symmetrical ...

as proven through the progression of evolution - there are four seasons, ringtone is the last day of winter.

Yes, but not eternal into the past.

The universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago from nothing.

.

The universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago from nothing.

- from nothing ...

no bing, the moment of singularity is a cyclical event, our universe was the reintroduction of matter from the release of compressed energy.

The universe is not perpetually cyclical. That would defy the SLoT.

No cyclical universe can avoid this fate.

 

[james bond]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

Just one post after I criticized you again. This new post is exactly what I was referring to. What is this "consciousness without form" existing outside of space and time? Certainly, it isn't what WLC refers to in his Kalam's Cosmological argument. This is the stuff you make up and it may as well be more of the same as your "militant atheist" post. What does it have to do with Catholicism let alone religion? You have no sources. If you supported Pope Francis, then people wouldn't think any worse of you .

“If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

The Pope Francis Statement That Changed the Church on LGBT Issues

 

[Ringtone]

... aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds.

the nonsense is yours ...


- the past and future directions of time are symmetrical ...

as proven through the progression of evolution - there are four seasons, ringtone is the last day of winter.

They are not symmetrical in terms of extremity. Theoretically, time can move forward forever. To go backward in time is to move toward the beginning of time, t = 0.

 

[Ringtone]

Yes, but not eternal into the past.

The universe popped into existence 14 billion years ago from nothing.

That's the sense in which they are are not symmetrical, ding. The universe began to exist; time, at least theoretically, can move forward forever sans any paradox.

 

[james bond]

the Almighty gave humanity a second chance ...

noah followed the religion of antiquity, the triumph of good vs evil, before its abandonment by the forthcoming desert religions ... the 1st century was its reenactment where the follower was the one killed, the perpetrators and their injustice lives to this day. the rainbow is not your friend nipper.

The rainbow is a promise that a global flood won't happen again. It's all good, but you know whos usurped it for their sinful ways -- We’re Keeping the Rainbow at the Ark Encounter.

 

[james bond]

Of course, that doesn't make Christians incapable of errors in judgement.

Haha, yeah, I love that cheap, dusty old bait and switch. Cracks me up every time. This is the "quarter from behind the ear", for your brand of charlatan.

You aren't just asserting the possibility or occasional occurence of error. You are alleging the entire body of accepted science is in error, as are all who accept it. Who are you trying to fool? Yourself?

Your dimestore parlor tricks wont work, here. Look at poor ding...he's pulling quarters, nickels, AND pennies from behind people's ears, and he's bombing badly.

You are one strange dude. I know how to do the quarter from behind the ear magic. That's what we Christians call "magic" instead of what God did in Genesis, i.e. supernatural creation. The charlatan is part of evolution and evolutionary thinking from the African pygmy tribes, to the Greeks, to the Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings, to Darwin, eugenics, Hitler and the Holocaust, to Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens, to Francis Collins, and more.

The only thing I agree with you is ding, but he doesn't know any magic. All he knows is spirituality, philosophy, and fake Catholicism. Maybe he doesn't even know what Pope Francis is saying.

 

[Hollie]

Of course, that doesn't make Christians incapable of errors in judgement.

Haha, yeah, I love that cheap, dusty old bait and switch. Cracks me up every time. This is the "quarter from behind the ear", for your brand of charlatan.

You aren't just asserting the possibility or occasional occurence of error. You are alleging the entire body of accepted science is in error, as are all who accept it. Who are you trying to fool? Yourself?

Your dimestore parlor tricks wont work, here. Look at poor ding...he's pulling quarters, nickels, AND pennies from behind people's ears, and he's bombing badly.

You are one strange dude. I know how to do the quarter from behind the ear magic. That's what we Christians call "magic" instead of what God did in Genesis, i.e. supernatural creation. The charlatan is part of evolution and evolutionary thinking from the African pygmy tribes, to the Greeks, to the Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings, to Darwin, eugenics, Hitler and the Holocaust, to Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens, to Francis Collins, and more.

The only thing I agree with you is ding, but he doesn't know any magic. All he knows is spirituality, philosophy, and fake Catholicism. Maybe he doesn't even know what Pope Francis is saying.

That was quite a tirade. You also employed every cliche and worn, tired slogan from the more notorious fundie creation ministries.

 

[ding]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

Just one post after I criticized you again. This new post is exactly what I was referring to. What is this "consciousness without form" existing outside of space and time? Certainly, it isn't what WLC refers to in his Kalam's Cosmological argument. This is the stuff you make up and it may as well be more of the same as your "militant atheist" post. What does it have to do with Catholicism let alone religion? You have no sources. If you supported Pope Francis, then people wouldn't think any worse of you .

“If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

The Pope Francis Statement That Changed the Church on LGBT Issues

I don’t care what you think about me.

That’s how I perceive God. Consciousness. Mind. Eternal. It’s the closest one can come to describe something which can not be described in human terms.

 

[G.T.]

Of course, that doesn't make Christians incapable of errors in judgement.

Haha, yeah, I love that cheap, dusty old bait and switch. Cracks me up every time. This is the "quarter from behind the ear", for your brand of charlatan.

You aren't just asserting the possibility or occasional occurence of error. You are alleging the entire body of accepted science is in error, as are all who accept it. Who are you trying to fool? Yourself?

Your dimestore parlor tricks wont work, here. Look at poor ding...he's pulling quarters, nickels, AND pennies from behind people's ears, and he's bombing badly.

You are one strange dude. I know how to do the quarter from behind the ear magic. That's what we Christians call "magic" instead of what God did in Genesis, i.e. supernatural creation. The charlatan is part of evolution and evolutionary thinking from the African pygmy tribes, to the Greeks, to the Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Ernst Haeckel's embryo drawings, to Darwin, eugenics, Hitler and the Holocaust, to Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens, to Francis Collins, and more.

The only thing I agree with you is ding, but he doesn't know any magic. All he knows is spirituality, philosophy, and fake Catholicism. Maybe he doesn't even know what Pope Francis is saying.

That was quite a tirade. You also employed every cliche and worn, tired slogan from the more notorious fundie creation ministries.

He probably listens to lord steven christ on youtube