The Cosmological Arguments for God's Existence

[ding]

Your nastiness and name-calling says a lot about your character and immaturity, instead of anything about the people you attack.

Thats cool, I didnt start that crap though. Dings got a history of that bullshit, and the other guys attacked me 1st, of course.

But think whatever ya wanna. Im anonymous to you afterall.

The really cool thing about this response is how you rationalized your poor behavior as someone’s fault other than your own.

I said it like it happened, thats the kinda realness you suffer depression with no having...and take it out on Taz. Its alright, he seems to enjoy it.

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

Not really. I don’t have a preference for an outcome.

 

[G.T.]

Thats cool, I didnt start that crap though. Dings got a history of that bullshit, and the other guys attacked me of course.

But think whatever ya wanna. Im anonymous to you afterall.

So it’s my fault you can’t make a logical argument to refute my logical argument?

No, its your fault I dont take you seriously enough.

Or you don’t have a logical response so you resort to name calling.

Sure, buddy. seems you need to say that for validation

lol!

No. I keep saying it because it’s true.

 

[G.T.]

Thats cool, I didnt start that crap though. Dings got a history of that bullshit, and the other guys attacked me 1st, of course.

But think whatever ya wanna. Im anonymous to you afterall.

The really cool thing about this response is how you rationalized your poor behavior as someone’s fault other than your own.

I said it like it happened, thats the kinda realness you suffer depression with no having...and take it out on Taz. Its alright, he seems to enjoy it.

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

Not really. I don’t have a preference for an outcome.

You beg for an outcome.

 

[Votto]

The cosmological arguments for God's existence are predicated on the first principles of ontology, i.e., the fundamental facts of existence per the imperatives of logic. Many fail to appreciate the intermediate premises of these arguments, particularly those of the KCA.


The following includes my own sub-premises for the first premise and my summary argument for the conclusion:

The Kalam Cosmological Argument (Horizontal Argument)

1. That which begins to exist must have a cause of its existence.

1.1. Something exists.

1.2. Existence from nonexistence is absurd.

1.3. Something has always existed.
​

2. The universe began to exist.

Argument based on the impossibility of an actual infinite.
2.11. An actual infinite cannot exist.
2.12. An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
2.13. Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.

AND

Argument based on the impossibility of the formation of an actual infinite by successive addition.
2.21. A collection formed by successive addition cannot be actually infinite.
2.22. The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition.
2.23. Therefore, the temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite.​

3. The universe has a cause of its existence.

3.1. If the cause of the universe's existence were impersonal, it would be operationally mechanical.

3.2. An operationally mechanical cause would be a material existent.

3.3. The causal conditions for the effect of an operationally mechanical cause would be given from eternity.

3.4. But a material existent is a contingent entity of continuous change and causality!

3.5. An infinite temporal series of past causal events cannot be traversed to the present.

3.6. Indeed, an actual infinite cannot exist.

3.7. Hence, a temporal existent cannot have a beginningless past.

3.8. Hence, time began to exist.

3.9. A material existent is a temporal existent.

3.10. Hence, materiality began to exist.

3.11. The universe is a material existent.

3.12. Hence, the universe began to exist.

3.13. Hence, the cause of the universe's existence cannot be material (per 3.10.).

3.14. Hence, the cause of the universe's existence cannot be operationally mechanical (per 3.2., 3.10.).

3.15. Hence, the eternally self-subsistent cause of the universe's existence is wholly transcendent: timeless, immaterial and immutable (3.13.).

3.16. The only kind of timeless entity that could cause the beginning of time sans any external, predetermining causal conditions would be a personal agent of free will (per 3.3., 3.14.).

3.17. Hence, the eternally self-subsistent cause of the universe's existence is a personal agent of free will.


The Vertical Cosmological Argument​

1. If something exists, there must exist what it takes for that thing to exist.
2. The universe—the collection of beings in space and time—exists.
3. Therefore, there must exist what it takes for the universe to exist.
4. What it takes for the universe to exist cannot exist within the universe or be bounded by space and time.
5. Therefore, what it takes for the universe to exist must transcend both space and time.

Wrong!

Darwin done it!

 

[ding]

Your nastiness and name-calling says a lot about your character and immaturity, instead of anything about the people you attack.

Thats cool, I didnt start that crap though. Dings got a history of that bullshit, and the other guys attacked me 1st, of course.

But think whatever ya wanna. Im anonymous to you afterall.

The really cool thing about this response is how you rationalized your poor behavior as someone’s fault other than your own.

I said it like it happened, thats the kinda realness you suffer depression with no having...and take it out on Taz. Its alright, he seems to enjoy it.

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

I don’t believe you can. It’s not a matter of want. You can’t.

 

[ding]

The really cool thing about this response is how you rationalized your poor behavior as someone’s fault other than your own.

I said it like it happened, thats the kinda realness you suffer depression with no having...and take it out on Taz. Its alright, he seems to enjoy it.

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

Not really. I don’t have a preference for an outcome.

You beg for an outcome.

Wrong. I win either way.

 

[ding]

So the question is why can’t something like consciousness without form exist outside of space and time?

 

[G.T.]

Thats cool, I didnt start that crap though. Dings got a history of that bullshit, and the other guys attacked me 1st, of course.

But think whatever ya wanna. Im anonymous to you afterall.

The really cool thing about this response is how you rationalized your poor behavior as someone’s fault other than your own.

I said it like it happened, thats the kinda realness you suffer depression with no having...and take it out on Taz. Its alright, he seems to enjoy it.

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

I don’t believe you can. It’s not a matter of want. You can’t.

If thats what ya need to feel validated!

Theres always packing up your pride, and PMing a buddy to copy paste your dogshit and ask me about it and...if hes not been a douchebag to me, Id oblige him.

Or her.

But not you.

Keep begging though.

 

[james bond]

I’m not wearing my militant atheist watch so maybe it is.

Why would you be a militant atheist? I think this thread showed that God was the one who created the universe as per Kalam. There was a beginning. Instead, you are confused and angry with a need to be a militant atheist???!!!???!!! You need to make up your mind what you are .

 

[ding]

The really cool thing about this response is how you rationalized your poor behavior as someone’s fault other than your own.

I said it like it happened, thats the kinda realness you suffer depression with no having...and take it out on Taz. Its alright, he seems to enjoy it.

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

I don’t believe you can. It’s not a matter of want. You can’t.

If thats what ya need to feel validated!

Theres always packing up your pride, and PMing a buddy to copy paste your dogshit and ask me about it and...if hes not been a douchebag to me, Id oblige him.

Or her.

But not you.

Keep begging though.

The world does not revolve around you, GT.

Whether you participate or not has no affect on me whatsoever.

The reality is that you are the one who can’t keep yourself from commenting on what I write.

 

[ding]

I’m not wearing my militant atheist watch so maybe it is.

Why would you be a militant atheist? I think this thread showed that God was the one who created the universe as per Kalam. There was a beginning. Instead, you are confused and angry with a need to be a militant atheist???!!!???!!! You need to make up your mind what you are .

Get it out of your system, JB.

 

[ding]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

 

[ding]

So the next question is is consciousness without form capable of creating the material from nothing?

 

[G.T.]

I said it like it happened, thats the kinda realness you suffer depression with no having...and take it out on Taz. Its alright, he seems to enjoy it.

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

I don’t believe you can. It’s not a matter of want. You can’t.

If thats what ya need to feel validated!

Theres always packing up your pride, and PMing a buddy to copy paste your dogshit and ask me about it and...if hes not been a douchebag to me, Id oblige him.

Or her.

But not you.

Keep begging though.

The world does not revolve around you, GT.

Whether you participate or not has no affect on me whatsoever.

The reality is that you are the one who can’t keep yourself from commenting on what I write.

youre such a joke

you beg and beg me to respond to your dimwitted arguments

you respond to shit that youre not involved in

and then say that its the others who cant keep themselves from commenting...and you. the guy who's cheerleading for me to make an argument...say it has no affect on ya

complete joke, also seemingly psychopathic

 

[ding]

Still not a logical argument, bro.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I can keep pointing out that you aren’t making a logical argument as long as you can keep hurling insults at me.

And im sure thats comforting...but i dont recall wanting to "make an argument," for you...dufus

I don’t believe you can. It’s not a matter of want. You can’t.

If thats what ya need to feel validated!

Theres always packing up your pride, and PMing a buddy to copy paste your dogshit and ask me about it and...if hes not been a douchebag to me, Id oblige him.

Or her.

But not you.

Keep begging though.

The world does not revolve around you, GT.

Whether you participate or not has no affect on me whatsoever.

The reality is that you are the one who can’t keep yourself from commenting on what I write.

youre such a joke

you beg and beg me to respond to your dimwitted arguments

you respond to shit that youre not involved in

and then say that its the others who cant keep themselves from commenting...and you. the guy who's cheerleading for me to make an argument...say it has no affect on ya

complete joke, also seemingly psychopathic

Do you feel better now?

 

[G.T.]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

do you feel better now?

get it all out of your system ding.

 

[james bond]

This is one way faith poisons the mind.

Belief in Jesus doesn't poison the mind. That is the foundation for this thread, Fort Fun Indiana, but it has gone over your head .

You talk about faith, but atheists have "faith" in their no God religion, as well. You have no proof that God does not exist nor that he didn't create the universe. Where is your counter to Kalam's Cosmological argument?

Yet, you want proof of God when there is no proof. Otherwise, why would one need faith? The things that atheists say to Christians and believers usually do not make much sense.

You guys are without God which I think you will agree to. How everyone will end up believing in God has already been prophecised as below. This means that everything will be settled on Earth and not in the afterlife. It won't be pain and suffering used as the strong persuader. I was wrong about that. “‘Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth ‘will mourn because of him.’ So shall it be! Amen.” Revelation 1:7 The nature of God was explained in Genesis (beginning) and we see it again in Revelation and Daniel (end times). Amen.

 

[G.T.]

And now...we interrupt Random Guys on the internet pretending to know how the universe exists...

with a 1.5 hour program of an actually qualified gentleman on part of this topic, that was released exactly 9 minutes ago. Should be a solid listen.

 

[ding]

The reality is there is nothing at all that would preclude consciousness without form from existing outside of space and time.

Since it is not of a material nature, it’s presence outside of space and time would not create space and time.

do you feel better now?

get it all out of your system ding.

I feel pretty good. Yeah.

 

[Ringtone]

Oops, another silly error. He is not doing that, nor does he need to do so. You are the one making the assertions. All one has to do to undermine your useless argument is to show counterarguments exist that undermine your assertion and that you cannot definitvely rule out.

You put yourself in this weak position with your universal, unsupported, unevidenced assertions. Maybe you will learn your lesson. But i doubt it. Religion does that to people's brains.

For example, we have this silly statement from Fun for brains regarding G.T.'s deafening silence in response to my observation that Morriston-Malpass' "intuition" that a potential infinity is equally viable in both past and future directions of time because the past and future directions of time are symmetrical. Their notion is imbecilic because to continuously add events to the past is to continuously move backwards in time. To continuously move backwards in time is to never move forward in time to the present, let alone move forward in time into the future! That is self-evident. If Morriston-Malpass mean to impose the B theory of time then their argument is not with Craig as he doesn't ascribe to the B theory to time.

Another aspect of their critique is equally puzzling. As I previously observed:

Morriston is actually a Christian, that is to say, a liberal Christian who thinks that God is an actual infinite. He thinks he's refuting Craig, when actually he's arguing against rational and textual orthodoxy in defense of his liberal theology in this wise. In other words, Morriston is trying to cram his theology down reality's throat, rather than let God's uncreated logic that He bestowed on us to speak for itself and lead us where it will as God intended. This is why G.T.'s appeal to Morriston-Malpass' line of argumentation is so hilarious.

[. . .]

G.T. raised Malpass' video when he thought he was springing something new and profound on me, but he lost interest in discussing it, apparently, when he realized it wasn't new or profound to me. In the final analysis, all they're really saying, aside from the nonsense that the past and future directions of time are symmetrical, is that the complete infinities of abstraction are actual because they exist in minds. But such only exist as theoretical apprehensions of possibility in minds, and even then only as ideas without any definitive quantity or amount. For example, we all understand that any line from point A to point B can in theory be "infinitely" divided without end. But at any given moment in the process of division, the number of segments into which the line has been divided is finite, and the sum of its segments are equal to the origin whole. No one is arguing that infinity doesn't exist, but that it doesn't exist as anything more than an idea of a boundlessly large and indeterminable number or amount of something in minds. Outside minds, an actual infinite does not and cannot exist in any sense but as a potential infinite tending toward infinity, but never reaching infinity, as, ultimately, infinity has no extremity.​

On the latter, Morriston proposes that three angels are compelled to praise God at regular intervals forever into the future. Malpass goes on about a demon cursing his fate at regular intervals forever into the future. These are said to constitute states of actual infinities as a brute mathematical fact, but how is this not anything more than an actual state of potential infinity consisting of a finite number of praises/cursings at any given moment in a series wherein the future praises/cursings have yet to occur or exist? All they're describing is the causal conditions for an endless series of a boundlessly large and indeterminable number of praises/cursings.

G.T. posts this gibberish in a video.
G.T. implies that the posting of this gibberish overthrows the imperatives of the A theory of time.
G.T. is confronted by the counterargument of why this gibberish is gibberish (also see Craig's more indepth deconstruction of this gibberish).
G.T. is silent.

I was sort of hoping that G.T. might be able to directly engage me so that we might eventually move onto why the KCA would necessarily hold up under the B theory of time as well. Surprise! Surprise! But I guess we won't get to that given that G.T. has yet to demonstrate that he personally understands the matter in terms of the A theory, and is merely citing any ol' "authority" that comes along to affirm his preordained biases.