The Argument for a Palestinian State

[Toddsterpatriot]

Imo, Likud is actually worse than than S. Africa's apartheid govts. The land in question in Palestine is not, and never has been, legally part of Israel, unless you count the Talmud as a property deed. In S. Africa's case, the lands in question were always part of S.Africa, the only changes were from blacks running the show, to the Boers running the show, to the Brits, to the white S. Africans, and then with DeKlerk opening S. Africa to multi-ethnic voting.

But the question is ..... how does the world keep a Palestine or arab state ... demilitarized.

The land in question in Palestine is not, and never has been, legally part of Israel,

The land in question never has been part of a nation of Palestine.

You're talking about Samaria and Judea, right?

 

[Shusha]

Seems Joe wants it both ways.

Yep. They want to be able to claim both apartheid and occupation , without seeming to realize those things are mutually exclusive.

I think a good argument could be made that there is ALREADY a de facto 4 state solution in place (Jordan, Israel, Gaza, West Bank).

 

[José]

Not necessarily, if a Pale state was
similar to a native american reservation.

Bad, horrible comparison... totally off the mark.

There's no intrinsic, inate difference between indian reservations in the US and any imaginary palestinian pseudo-state created by Israel in the WB and Gaza.

They are both racial corrals created by the white and jewish ethnocracies to keep the undesirable ethnic group after their forced displacement from their land.

The REAL difference between reservations and a Palestinian pseudo-state does not lie in the ethnic enclaves themselves...

It lies in the people inhabiting them.

The white racial dictatorship that governed America in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries managed to defeat the struggle of the native people to preserve their homelands.

The white racial dictatorship managed to break their will to fight for their lost land and, after that, they resigned themselves to live in their enclaves. That's why you don't see Comanches and Arapahos killing american farmers today.

The jewish racial dictatorship never managed to do the same to the palestinian people and probably never will because the level of violence required to replicate in Palestine what the US government achieved in America would lead to the total delegitimization of the state of Israel.

 

[José]

The real difference between reservations and a pseudo-state for palestinians would be the people inhabiting them (defeated by the ethnocracy vs. undefeated), not the racial corrals themselves.

 

[JoeB131]

This is kinda the bottom line, isn't it? What is the status of the Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank? Are they citizens of Israel? (In which case, they, obviously, should have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. But this would also end the idea of a future State of Palestine.) OR are they citizens of Palestine? (In which case, could you argue that a State of Palestine already exists?)

Or... one person, one vote, with a right to return for the 5 million Palis living in exile in other countries.

But I doubt the Zionists would like that much.

 

[martybegan]

Or... one person, one vote, with a right to return for the 5 million Palis living in exile in other countries.

But I doubt the Zionists would like that much.

Because it's a suicide pact?

The ones who fled fought and lost. That's the end of their rights to any residency in modern Israel's borders.

 

[bendog]

The land in question in Palestine is not, and never has been, legally part of Israel,

The land in question never has been part of a nation of Palestine.

You're talking about Samaria and Judea, right?

I'm talking about the West Bank and Gaza as well as the northern areas nearer Syria that the "Settlers" covet

Actually Jordan ceeded to Israel the West Bank for a homeland for the Pales.

 

[martybegan]

I'm talking about the West Bank and Gaza as well as the northern areas nearer Syria that the "Settlers" covet

Actually Jordan ceeded to Israel the West Bank for a homeland for the Pales.

Ever wonder why?

 

[José]

The ones who fled fought and lost. That's the end of their
rights to any residency in modern Israel's borders.

I have some bad news to break to my little baby, martybegan:

Racist Jews and super patriotic american clowns don't get to decide the borders of the homeland of the Palestinian people or any other people still undefeated by the racial dictatorship occupying their land.

 

[Shusha]

I'm talking about the West Bank and Gaza as well as the northern areas nearer Syria that the "Settlers" covet

Actually Jordan ceeded to Israel the West Bank for a homeland for the Pales.

Jordan has never had any legal sovereign claim to the West Bank. A State can't cede territory that doesn't belong to it; let alone cede territory that doesn't belong to it to an unknown, as-yet-non-existent, future State and its government.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I'm talking about the West Bank and Gaza as well as the northern areas nearer Syria that the "Settlers" covet

Actually Jordan ceeded to Israel the West Bank for a homeland for the Pales.

I'm talking about the West Bank and Gaza

Right. Samaria, Judea and Gaza.

Actually Jordan ceeded to Israel the West Bank for a homeland for the Pales.

Jordan didn't create a homeland for the Palestinians between 1948-1967, when they held it?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The ones who fled fought and lost. That's the end of their
rights to any residency in modern Israel's borders.

I have some bad news to break to my little baby, martybegan:

Racist Jews and super patriotic american clowns don't get to decide the borders of the homeland of the Palestinian people or any other people still undefeated by the racial dictatorship occupying their land.

Racist Jews and super patriotic american clowns don't get to decide the borders of the homeland of the Palestinian people

What Palestinian people? The Arabs squatting on former Ottoman territory?

 

[José]

Originally posted by Toddsterpatriot
What Palestinian people? The Arabs squatting on former Ottoman territory?

Put your money where your mouth is, travel to Israel and the occupied territories, convince the palestinian arabs they don't exist as a separate people and the conflict will end.

What are you waiting for, Toddster?

Buy your ticket to Israel now and go down in History as a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Put your money where your mouth is, travel to Israel and the occupied territories, convince the palestinian arabs they don't exist as a separate people and the conflict will end.

What are you waiting for, Toddster?

Buy your ticket to Israel now and go down in History as a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

Don't be silly. The so called Palestinians already they are not a people, just left over Arabs living on the unincorporated remnants of the former Mandate who have been misused by the Arab nations to prod Israel and who have now been abandoned by these nations who support them at arm's length out of shame for how they misused them.

None of this is, of course, relevant to the fantasy of two states living side by side in peace because the Palestinians have never been willing to live in peace with Israel/Jews.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Put your money where your mouth is, travel to Israel and the occupied territories, convince the palestinian arabs they don't exist as a separate people and the conflict will end.

What are you waiting for, Toddster?

Buy your ticket to Israel now and go down in History as a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

I try to avoid Muslim barbarians whenever possible.

 

[José]

None of this is, of course, relevant to the fantasy of two states living side by side in peace because the Palestinians have never been willing to live in peace with Israel/Jews.

TOOMUCHTIME​

The relevance of the arisal of the Palestinian national identity to explain why all the attempts to create two states in Palestine have been and will continue to be a miserable failure is more than brutal... it's a direct cause and effect relationship.

Palestinians will never be able to accept these two regions as their historic homeland upon which they will build a functional state:

Because 140 years of struggle against european colonization created among them a sense of belonging to a single people with a shared past and a shared future and belonging to a single homeland.

140 years of that fight made them fully aware that the West Bank and Gaza are nothing but two illegitimate, shambolic ethnocratic enclaves created by the jewish racial dictatorship's shoot-to-kill policy in order to colonize their land with Jews and not an "embryo" of a future legitimate state.

140 years of stuggle against British colonial occupation and zionist colonization created and crystallized in their minds this mental image as being their historic homeland:

The Palestinian national identity far from being irrelevant, is the entire explanation of the failure to partition palestine at least since Oslo.

 

[toomuchtime_]

None of this is, of course, relevant to the fantasy of two states living side by side in peace because the Palestinians have never been willing to live in peace with Israel/Jews.

TOOMUCHTIME​

The relevance of the arisal of the Palestinian national identity to explain why all the attempts to create two states in Palestine have been and will continue to be a miserable failure is more than brutal... it's a direct cause and effect relationship.

Palestinians will never be able to accept these two regions as their historic homeland upon which they will build a functional state:

Because 140 years of struggle against european colonization created among them a sense of belonging to a single people with a shared past and a shared future and belonging to a single homeland.

140 years of that fight made them fully aware that the West Bank and Gaza are nothing but two illegitimate, shambolic ethnocratic enclaves created by the jewish racial dictatorship's shoot-to-kill policy in order to colonize their land with Jews and not an "embryo" of a future legitimate state.

140 years of stuggle against British colonial occupation and zionist colonization created and crystallized in their minds this mental image as being their historic homeland:

The Palestinian national identity far from being irrelevant, is the entire explanation of the failure to partition palestine at least since Oslo.

Actually, you are saying the same thing I said: there will never be a Palestinian state because the Palestinians have never been willing to live in peace with Israel/Jews.

 

[JoeB131]

Actually, you are saying the same thing I said: there will never be a Palestinian state because the Palestinians have never been willing to live in peace with Israel/Jews.

Yet inevitably, they are going to have to.

 

[Shusha]

...

Palestinians will never be able to accept these two regions as their historic homeland upon which they will build a functional state:

Because 140 years of struggle against european colonization created among them a sense of belonging to a single people with a shared past and a shared future and belonging to a single homeland.

140 years of that fight made them fully aware that the West Bank and Gaza are nothing but two illegitimate, shambolic ethnocratic enclaves created by the jewish racial dictatorship's shoot-to-kill policy in order to colonize their land with Jews and not an "embryo" of a future legitimate state.

140 years of stuggle against British colonial occupation and zionist colonization created and crystallized in their minds this mental image as being their historic homeland:

The Palestinian national identity far from being irrelevant, is the entire explanation of the failure to partition palestine at least since Oslo.

As is clearly stated above, the "Palestinian national identity" is formed AGAINST an idea (the Jewish people also have a right to self-determination and sovereignty in their homeland), rather than FOR an idea. This is why the Palestinian identity is inherently past-looking, rather than forward-looking, and why this identity is inherently and unavoidably violent and destructive, and why the Palestinian identity is unable to build anything.

When I speak of de-radicalization, this is the starting point: for the Palestinians to develop an identity which is predicated on their own unique culture, their own ties to the land and their history in it, with a positive vision of a future.

 

[JoeB131]

As is clearly stated above, the "Palestinian national identity" is formed AGAINST an idea (the Jewish people also have a right to self-determination and sovereignty in their homeland), rather than FOR an idea.

You see, this is where we got to stop you. Palestine is not the homeland of European Jews. It's a settler state. (So is the United States, for that matter.)

The biggest LIE of Zionism was "A land without a people for a people without a land!" There were people on that land, they had been there for centuries. They had no more right to that land than I have, claiming land in the Lahn Valley in Germany that my great-grandparents lived on. The people who live there now, some of whom might be distant relatives, have the right to that land.

In the decades since, people in my family have 1) Stopped Speaking German, 2) Intermarried with non-Germans, and 3) Built lives in another country.

This is why the Palestinian identity is inherently past-looking, rather than forward-looking, and why this identity is inherently and unavoidably violent and destructive, and why the Palestinian identity is unable to build anything.

Really? I thought it was because the Zionists had crowded them into enclaves with the worst land and limited resources.