Spain's Catholic Church backs Condoms

[Bonnie]

The benefits of humility, self-discipline and personal sacrifice are hard concepts to teach to "rational" people .

Dillo and Avatar, I have a question for you both and anyone else that would like to answer?

Why is it those that ridicule and don't believe in anything higher than themselves seem so desperate to change and or.. be accepted by those that do???

 

[freeandfun1]

Dillo and Avatar, I have a question for you both and anyone else that would like to answer?

Why is it those that ridicule and don't believe in anything higher than themselves seem so desperate to change and or.. be accepted by those that do???

Fear? Self-doubt?

Actually, I believe it is because of arrogance. They think they know it all and are better, so they have to ridicule to solidify their positions. They are not comfortable enough in what they believe, but they also think they are more "intelligent" so they have to "cut-down" those with different beliefs so they don't have to question themselves.

Or at least, that is how I see it.

 

[5stringJeff]

Fear? Self-doubt?

Actually, I believe it is because of arrogance. They think they know it all and are better, so they have to ridicule to solidify their positions. They are not comfortable enough in what they believe, but they also think they are more "intelligent" so they have to "cut-down" those with different beliefs so they don't have to question themselves.

Or at least, that is how I see it.

It could very well be that said people are just extremely confident in their beliefs, and are trying to convince you of the validity of his/her viewpoints.

 

[freeandfun1]

It could very well be that said people are just extremely confident in their beliefs, and are trying to convince you of the validity of his/her viewpoints.

I would agree with that, but most that I come across are very arrogant about it. They talk to you like you are an idiot for believing in G-d. That is how I came to the conclusion I did. Just look at some on here. Civil-Liberty is a good example. During the ID discussion, he acted like anybody that could even remotely believe in ID must be a complete fool or idiot. To me, that is a very arrogant attitude to take and I believe he takes it because of his own self-doubts. But then again, that is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.....

 

[Bonnie]

It could very well be that said people are just extremely confident in their beliefs, and are trying to convince you of the validity of his/her viewpoints.

True but my point in asking is this, If they are not a believer nor do they attend any church, why do they feel the compeling need to change it for us that do believe and attend church?

This thread is a perfect example of what im referring to:
The secular world is passing out condoms galore, along with health information on avoiding AIDS etc, why then is it so important for athiests, agnostics, secularists etc to change the Catholic church's position on it, and why do they even care??

I think Free hit on the reason, but I would take it a step further and say deep, deep, inside these people may feel the church and religion is right and so they feel very threatened by that, they cope the only way they know how, if you can't join em beat em?? Just a theory.

 

[5stringJeff]

Not being a secular humanist, I can only guess, but I think that some would say that the church is "repressing" its members by not giving them the option to use condoms, or by insisting on abstinence education, etc.etc.

 

[Bonnie]

Not being a secular humanist, I can only guess, but I think that some would say that the church is "repressing" its members by not giving them the option to use condoms, or by insisting on abstinence education, etc.etc.

Well, true many I think that go to church everyweek probably feel the same way, birth control is a touchy subject, and not an easy one to always do the right thing, but my point is if the church is only instructing it's followers to the teachings of Christ then it is what it is. And why do those that don't believe or attend church care ??? Actually the church can't repress or make anyone do or not do what they want to anyway, the whole point of religion and faith is to willingly follow the teachings of Christ, the church itself is only there to give instructions on doing that and to give sacraments.

It's just like joining a country club, you know the rules ahead of time and you agree to abide by them. So what sense does it make for an outsider who doesn't belong to the club decide the clubs rules are ridiculous and try to change them??

 

[Avatar4321]

Not being a secular humanist, I can only guess, but I think that some would say that the church is "repressing" its members by not giving them the option to use condoms, or by insisting on abstinence education, etc.etc.

I dont see how religions can be oppressive if they arent state religions. its not like the religion can be in your house watching to see if you have sex with or without a condom. all religions can do is teach you good principles and its up to us to follow them or not.

The only thing religion can do is withdrawl fellowship, allowance of sacraments or other sacred rites or excommunication. And i dont see how any of those is oppressive. in fact if say the catholic church didnt forbid sacraments to people who were unrepentant and not following Church standards they would be accused of hypocrisy. so either way it looks like the church would be critisized.

 

[Annie]

I'm talking about two happily married people who want to share the pleasures of sex with each other, but for any myriad of reasons do not want to produce a child. Why is this couple prohibited from choosing whether to have a baby?

And I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of people remain in the religion they are born into.

Considering that Catholic rates of birth are comparable to rest of US, one must assume they are using birth control or they go long periods without. Hmm, what do you think? http://www.uscatholic.org/soundboard/1998/jun/bc2.html

However, Church teachings do help a number of single Catholics, especially the young.

 

[MissileMan]

Because God wants us to procreate so there are souls for heaven............The point is when you practice unatural birth control you are stopping God's will unaturally, in not trusting him.

Do you really believe that God's will can be turned aside by a condom?

The church is the church, this is the package and the rules that go with the church and it's following of Gods teachings!

I know there are differences between the sects of Christianity, but is there a biblical ban on birth control, or is that something the Catholics made up, like Purgatory?

The church and it's followers do many things to comfort and help those suffering from AIDS, poverty, and many other of societies woes here and abroad, they don't need to condone the use of condoms to please those that don't believe...........There are LOTS of secularists out there handing out condoms everywhere, no need for the church to do that as well.

I agree that the church does a lot of comforting. I'm saying that they could do even more by condoning condoms. Yes, they are a form of birth control, but in these times, they are more disease control. After all, if it prevented even one additional case of AIDS, wouldn't it be worth it? What if the person saved from the virus were your kid?

 

[MissileMan]

Well, true many I think that go to church everyweek probably feel the same way, birth control is a touchy subject, and not an easy one to always do the right thing, but my point is if the church is only instructing it's followers to the teachings of Christ then it is what it is. And why do those that don't believe or attend church care ??? Actually the church can't repress or make anyone do or not do what they want to anyway, the whole point of religion and faith is to willingly follow the teachings of Christ, the church itself is only there to give instructions on doing that and to give sacraments.

It's just like joining a country club, you know the rules ahead of time and you agree to abide by them. So what sense does it make for an outsider who doesn't belong to the club decide the clubs rules are ridiculous and try to change them??

This is a discussion board...if you only want to hear points of view that are the same as yours, you can always just have a conversation with yourself.

A lot of religious people confine their thinking to what's "inside the box". As an outsider, I can, and usually do, make arguments that fall "outside the box". For the most part, I am not doing it out of disrespect or disdain for religion. Mostly I am questioning the rationality of certain positions taken by some of the religious posters on this board.

 

[MissileMan]

Considering that Catholic rates of birth are comparable to rest of US, one must assume they are using birth control or they go long periods without. Hmm, what do you think? http://www.uscatholic.org/soundboard/1998/jun/bc2.html

However, Church teachings do help a number of single Catholics, especially the young.

From what I gathered in the article, a large number of Catholics find the ban on birth control irrational and are discreetly doing their own family planning.

 

[Bonnie]

This is a discussion board...if you only want to hear points of view that are the same as yours, you can always just have a conversation with yourself.

A lot of religious people confine their thinking to what's "inside the box". As an outsider, I can, and usually do, make arguments that fall "outside the box". For the most part, I am not doing it out of disrespect or disdain for religion. Mostly I am questioning the rationality of certain positions taken by some of the religious posters on this board.

The church is not supposed to fall "outside the box". It is a monolithic institution that transcends time, morality, wars, etc. Again your not undeerstanding the role of the church, it's not just to comfort people, and tell them what they want to hear it is to let people KNOW the truth as to what the standard is that God expects us to live up to in order to achieve heaven. If people of faith wish to use condoms, no one, including the church is stopping them. Your whole point that people are doing it anyway so the church may as well just give in is not the way it works. That works in secular society..........and again there are many secular institutions and health care providers that willingly pass out condoms, why would the church need to do that or condone it? You always say there is no reason for schools to promote prayer, why would you expect chruches to promote or adapt secular ideas??? Seems like you want it all your way?

And yes using a condom does prevent the will of God as he allows us to use free will, and is not going to interfere if a couple says I don't trust God enough to take care of me financially if we have more kids. It's certainly not an easy thing to do and sure most of us don't have that kind of faith, but that's not the churches fault or God's fault, it is human weakness, and we all have it. We all have our crosses to carry, the church and God expects us to keep trying though.

I don't question your right to debate, I question why your so interested in this topic as you have demonstrated your (for the most part barring a few exceptions) lack of respect for the ideals those that believe and practice the worship of God espouse. The fact that I have had to repeat myself several times proves to me that you still don't get what church is all about. It is, what it is, and you don't believe and that's okay, no one expects you to convert, at the same time it doesn't appear you are willing to afford that same courtesy to those that do believe and are converted.

Religion is not necessarily rational, belief in a God That always was and always will be is not rational it defies logic...What is rational is when a person goes to church, prays, and then practices to the best of their ability to live they way God hopes we will, they find order and peace in a very tangible way, because God in his brilliance made laws such as marriage, penence, charity, sacrifice, having children, fidelity, respect for life.. for practical reasons, so that we would live a relatively peaceful life, there would be more souls for heaven, our actions would benefit others who need our help, there would be no divorce, no child abuse, no abortion, no murder, no stealing, and we would earn heaven in the process. Society would work as it should.
People wouldn't be confused and in constant turmoil.

 

[MissileMan]

The church is not supposed to fall "outside the box". It is a monolithic institution that transcends time, morality, wars, etc. Again your not undeerstanding the role of the church, it's not just to comfort people, and tell them what they want to hear it is to let people KNOW the truth as to what the standard is that God expects us to live up to in order to achieve heaven. If people of faith wish to use condoms, no one, including the church is stopping them. Your whole point that people are doing it anyway so the church may as well just give in is not the way it works. That works in secular society..........and again there are many secular institutions and health care providers that willingly pass out condoms, why would the church need to do that or condone it? You always say there is no reason for schools to promote prayer, why would you expect chruches to promote or adapt secular ideas??? Seems like you want it all your way?

And yes using a condom does prevent the will of God as he allows us to use free will, and is not going to interfere if a couple says I don't trust God enough to take care of me financially if we have more kids. It's certainly not an easy thing to do and sure most of us don't have that kind of faith, but that's not the churches fault or God's fault, it is human weakness, and we all have it. We all have our crosses to carry, the church and God expects us to keep trying though.

I don't question your right to debate, I question why your so interested in this topic as you have demonstrated your (for the most part barring a few exceptions) lack of respect for the ideals those that believe and practice the worship of God espouse. The fact that I have had to repeat myself several times proves to me that you still don't get what church is all about. It is, what it is, and you don't believe and that's okay, no one expects you to convert, at the same time it doesn't appear you are willing to afford that same courtesy to those that do believe and are converted.

Religion is not necessarily rational, belief in a God That always was and always will be is not rational it defies logic...What is rational is when a person goes to church, prays, and then practices to the best of their ability to live they way God hopes we will, they find order and peace in a very tangible way, because God in his brilliance made laws such as marriage, penence, charity, sacrifice, having children, fidelity, respect for life.. for practical reasons, so that we would live a relatively peaceful life, there would be more souls for heaven, our actions would benefit others who need our help, there would be no divorce, no child abuse, no abortion, no murder, no stealing, and we would earn heaven in the process. Society would work as it should.
People wouldn't be confused and in constant turmoil.

It's pretty obvious that I don't think "inside the box", and you don't think "outside the box", so we'll have to agree to disagree. It's one of those irresistible force/immoveable object things!

 

[Bonnie]

It's pretty obvious that I don't think "inside the box", and you don't think "outside the box", so we'll have to agree to disagree. It's one of those irresistible force/immoveable object things!

I have no problem thinking "outside the box" on any issue other than religion and it's truth. Im sure you think that makes me closed minded, and that's okay with me.

 

[Annie]

From what I gathered in the article, a large number of Catholics find the ban on birth control irrational and are discreetly doing their own family planning.

No duh! Common knowledge since mid-1960's. No dis meant, just the bias gets a bit much.

 

[MissileMan]

No duh! Common knowledge since mid-1960's. No dis meant, just the bias gets a bit much.

No dis taken, but if even some of the members of the Catholic church see the ban as unrealistic, why are you ragging on me for saying so?

 

[NATO AIR]

I fly off the handle when I recall my time in S. Africa, watching innocent people (children and mothers primarily) dying of AIDS.

I get this attitude from so many people that somehow people with AIDS deserve what they get. Let me clarify this: Even a man who callously used women for sex throughout his life does not deserve such a terrible, painful way to spend his last days.

I invite all who think those with AIDS deserve it, that "adulterers, prostitutes and harlots" are getting what they've earned, to hold the hand of a man dying from HIV/AIDS. Glimpse into a woman's eyes as she fades away. Listen to the anguished screams of a family realizing their loved one is dead.

I do feel bad for going off though, so I apologize.

As far as the limited number of S. African Catholics, I actually mean this as a criticism of the Catholic Church in all of sub-saharan Africa, not just S. Africa, forgive me for not clarifying that. There are also far too many Anglican (and other type of Christian denomination) sects in S. Africa that follow the Catholic Church's no-condom policy, and that is highly disturbing in one of the hardest-hit AIDS afflicted nations of the world.

I acknowledge the assistance Catholic charities and missions give to the people of Africa, and it is very generous and quite substantial. Faith based care and intiatives are highly effective in most cases. I just find it unsettling that those on the ground who graciously help out of their faith could ignore the fact that widespread condom use (along with education and social improvements) could help lower the toll of the AIDS holocaust in Africa and in the future, in places like China, India and Eastern Europe.

I believe, hate the sin, not the sinner. By condemning condom use (in general, not in a theological discussion that is not distributed and talked about widespread), you are in essence, helping to kill the sinner, not the sin. The sin will remain, the sinner will ignorantly (and in the husband's case- selfish) die of AIDS more than likely.

As far as Catholic priest abuse goes, yea 4% (by the church's estimate, I would go as high as 7 to 10%) may seem small, but that does not count the percentage of priests who knew about what was going on, yet did nothing. Then count the priests who knew what was happening, and helped to cover up. Then count the priests who saw disturbing evidence and noticed something amiss, yet begged ignorance and went on about their business. In reality, you're looking at a 1/5 to 1/4 of the Church's priests involved. And that is very, very considerable.

On a perhaps even just as divisive question, isn't Spain's Catholic Church also the one that is acknowledging or considering tolerating gay marriages? Now that I would disagree with.

 

[5stringJeff]

I know there are differences between the sects of Christianity, but is there a biblical ban on birth control, or is that something the Catholics made up, like Purgatory?

MM, the ban on birth control is a Catholic thing. Protestant churches generally allow birth control. For more information, please see Monty Python's The Meaning of Life.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

MM, the ban on birth control is a Catholic thing. Protestant churches generally allow birth control. For more information, please see Monty Python's The Meaning of Life.

Laugh if you like about Catholics but it does seem that the Secularistic practices of birth control and abortion are having some pretty serious negative results.

Take a look at Europe for instance. They are going under financially because there are not enough people to support the social services they need to provide. The population is just not keeping up.

In America we are now missing about 40 million people because of Roe v. Wade. Those missing people who could be alive today would have helped to create a much stronger and larger U.S. economy, not to mention support the baby boomer bulge soon going on social security.

Maybe the Catholic practices are not quite so ridiculous after all - if you want to just look at it from a secular, worldly viewpoint.