Zone1 The Catholic Church is the most misunderstood/vilified "thing" in the world

[Meriweather]

salvation is there for everyone to freely receive, but it is not automatically applied to those who refuse it.

I believe we have always agreed on that point.

 

[Meriweather]

I can see why you would say that, given that baptism is a commanded sacrament. I do, however, believe that being born again is done immediately upon conversion, while baptism is the public declaration

Baptism is the commitment to the conversion.

 

[hadit]

Do you believe that Jesus, even on the cross, could read someone's heart?

Absolutely. That's why I trust that, despite my mistakes and errors, He will save me because He does see my heart.

 

[hadit]

Baptism is the commitment to the conversion.

Yes it is. I don't think we're really that far apart, and sometimes it comes down to rhetoric.

 

[1miseryindex]

Baptism is the commitment to the conversion.

Baptism confers grace on the soul

And the sooner it happens, preferably at birth, the better

 

[hadit]

Baptism confers grace on the soul

And the sooner it happens, preferably at birth, the better

Baptism is meaningless without conversion. IOW, it's useless on babies.

 

[Meriweather]

Baptism is meaningless without conversion. IOW, it's useless on babies.

Was it useless for the father to bring Jesus to his dying daughter? Was it useless for friends to bring the paralytic to Jesus? Was it useless for the Centurion to bring Jesus' healing upon his servant? What about the the Canaanite woman--useless for her to seek healing for her daughter? Where was the conversion?

As it was not useless for those in Jesus' day to bring another to Jesus' healing, how can it be useless for parents to bring their babies to Jesus? The conversion from sin to following Christ begins in infancy, that child being brought to Jesus, the parents bringing Christ into the lives of their children.

It astonishes me that so many have so little faith in Baptism, of bringing their children to Jesus, of bringing Jesus to their children. In the Catholic faith, baptism is a sacrament of initiation, where one is brought into the Body of Christ. Leaving one's children behind is unthinkable to many of us.

 

[hadit]

Was it useless for the father to bring Jesus to his dying daughter? Was it useless for friends to bring the paralytic to Jesus? Was it useless for the Centurion to bring Jesus' healing upon his servant? What about the the Canaanite woman--useless for her to seek healing for her daughter? Where was the conversion?

Hold on now, you're talking about different things here. Those were miracles done by Jesus that had nothing to do with baptism.

As it was not useless for those in Jesus' day to bring another to Jesus' healing, how can it be useless for parents to bring their babies to Jesus? The conversion from sin to following Christ begins in infancy, that child being brought to Jesus, the parents bringing Christ into the lives of their children.

It astonishes me that so many have so little faith in Baptism, of bringing their children to Jesus, of bringing Jesus to their children. In the Catholic faith, baptism is a sacrament of initiation, where one is brought into the Body of Christ. Leaving one's children behind is unthinkable to many of us.

We don't, we take them to Church with us and we have dedication ceremonies for them wherein their parents and the congregation pledge to do what they can to raise those children in the fear of God and to pray for them. We believe baptism to be a sacrament reserved for those who are able to make an informed decision about what they're doing, since there are no recorded incidents of babies being baptized in the Bible for salvation.

Do not presume to think anyone is leaving the children behind.

 

[Meriweather]

We don't, we take them to Church with us and we have dedication ceremonies for them wherein their parents and the congregation pledge to do what they can to raise those children in the fear of God and to pray for them. We believe baptism to be a sacrament reserved for those who are able to make an informed decision about what they're doing, since there are no recorded incidents of babies being baptized in the Bible for salvation.

Do not presume to think anyone is leaving the children behind.

Do you believe receiving the Holy Spirit is part of baptism? If so, then children are being left out of receiving the Holy Spirit until later in life. If one does not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of baptism, then there are different different views of baptism.

Catholics believe in asking for the gifts of the Holy Spirit to come upon our children as soon as possible, while others who hold no belief in these gifts will see no need for their children to be baptized as there are no gifts to receive.

 

[Meriweather]

Do not presume to think anyone is leaving the children behind.

Do you believe those who have not been baptized are full members of the Body of Christ?

 

[hadit]

Do you believe receiving the Holy Spirit is part of baptism? If so, then children are being left out of receiving the Holy Spirit until later in life. If one does not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of baptism, then there are different different views of baptism.

Catholics believe in asking for the gifts of the Holy Spirit to come upon our children as soon as possible, while others who hold no belief in these gifts will see no need for their children to be baptized as there are no gifts to receive.

We believe that the Holy Spirit comes at conversion, when He creates a new nature in a person, and later on, when a Christian understands being filled with Him and asks for Him. Some children are capable of doing so and understanding what that means, but babies are not.

 

[hadit]

Do you believe those who have not been baptized are full members of the Body of Christ?

I believe that they are saved, yes, but baptism is commanded, do not get me wrong. IOW, someone who has converted but dies before baptism is with Christ as much as anyone else is.

 

[1miseryindex]

Baptism is meaningless without conversion. IOW, it's useless on babies.

says you

I don't go by you. I thought we were supposed to go by the Bible? The Bible says whole households were baptized (Acts)

which would include children and infants

 

[hadit]

says you

I don't go by you. I thought we were supposed to go by the Bible? The Bible says whole households were baptized (Acts)

which would include children and infants

Did it, though? Or did it just include those children old enough to understand what was going on? The language does not specify.

 

[1miseryindex]

Did it, though? Or did it just include those children old enough to understand what was going on? The language does not specify.

Then why do YOU specify?

Nobody knows anything about Jesus except you

 

[Meriweather]

We believe that the Holy Spirit comes at conversion, when He creates a new nature in a person, and later on, when a Christian understands being filled with Him and asks for Him. Some children are capable of doing so and understanding what that means, but babies are not.

Babies do not understand how food nourishes them or how being held comforts them, but good parents do not deny them of these basics because it is the parents who understand the needs of babies.

Are parents incapable of understanding the need of Baptism and the Holy Spirit to come upon the new member of a converted household and have faith this will help their baby to grow in his/her understanding--just as she/he will grow in the understanding other aspects of human existence?

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not, would not, say parents who do not baptize their babies are wrong. I am simply presenting the faith of Catholics. We would not prevent our babies from coming fully into our family until they are old enough to understand our family, and nor do we prevent our babies from being full members of the Body--the Family--of Christ until they are old enough to understand that family.

Whether one baptizes babies as they enter into this world, or whether one waits for their child to grow up, that decision should be respected by all. I understand and respect your perspective, and merely ask the same from you.

 

[hadit]

Babies do not understand how food nourishes them or how being held comforts them, but good parents do not deny them of these basics because it is the parents who understand the needs of babies.

Are parents incapable of understanding the need of Baptism and the Holy Spirit to come upon the new member of a converted household and have faith this will help their baby to grow in his/her understanding--just as she/he will grow in the understanding other aspects of human existence?

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not, would not, say parents who do not baptize their babies are wrong. I am simply presenting the faith of Catholics. We would not prevent our babies from coming fully into our family until they are old enough to understand our family, and nor do we prevent our babies from being full members of the Body--the Family--of Christ until they are old enough to understand that family.

Whether one baptizes babies as they enter into this world, or whether one waits for their child to grow up, that decision should be respected by all. I understand and respect your perspective, and merely ask the same from you.

I do not mock the drive behind baptizing babies and understand your perspective. I part ways, though, with those who claim that a child who is not baptized is headed to hell until he is, and they are out there. Your desire to include children is beautiful, and we strive to do the same through praying for our children and teaching them about God so they are drawn into the family. The most beautiful thing a parent can hear is their child saying, "I want Jesus in my heart".

 

[hadit]

Then why do YOU specify?

Because baptizing children is not a Biblically commanded sacrament.

Nobody knows anything about Jesus except you

That is most certainly false. I do not, for instance, claim that only those who attend the church I go to have it figured out, as some do.

 

[1miseryindex]

Whether one baptizes babies as they enter into this world, or whether one waits for their child to grow up, that decision should be respected by all. I understand and respect your perspective, and merely ask the same from you.

You were saying great things until you come to this

NO, we cannot respect a WRONG act

It is WRONG as hell not to baptize a child as soon as possible. Why would you say it is OK to neglect to baptize a child which means neglecting to give that child Christ?

Then we have to raise the child Catholic (for the same reasons)

 

[1miseryindex]

Because baptizing children is not a Biblically commanded sacrament.

That is most certainly false. I do not, for instance, claim that only those who attend the church I go to have it figured out, as some do.

dishonest as hell

You act like u despise Catholics and act like they are all supposed to leave the CC and go to YOUR "church"