So we were supposed to be a christian nation huh....?

[cbirch2]

Because we all know Thomas Jefferson was THE ONLY Founding Father there was, thus all of the Founding Fathers can be judged by highly cherrypicked quotes from him.

Don't be any more of a public dumbass than nature forces on you, okay?

Come back and talk to us when you've read any of the source documents whose minute quotes you so cherish, and can tell us, in your own words, what the man was actually talking about.

Furthermore, when I want to hear from you on what Christians are like and what they believe, Reverend cbirch, rest assured, I will ask you. Until then, spare us your judgements based on your undoubtedly "extensive" knowledge of and research into the teachings of Christianity.

Yes, because maybe Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin, and Paine werent about the 5 most influential people of that era...??

Seriously? Yea its not significant at all that the first three presidents and the most influential inventor/philosopher of the period had no deep affiliation to the christian church, yet one political party continues to claim they did.

You see no problem with that?

 

[WillowTree]

They are spending us into oblivioun.. they streaming toward the wh even as we speak.. dumbass.atheist.

They are? Republicans spent all the money...

hate to break the news to ya. where ya been? head up the azz?

 

[Contumacious]

The founding fathers were far from the christians Palin, Bachmann, and Beck would have you believe they were. ?

Why then is our official name

United States of Americostan?

.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Heres Franklin:

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
- "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728

Oh, good. So there are actually TWO Founding Fathers, Jefferson and Franklin, and no others.

 

[cbirch2]

What? The nation was well into debt before obama was even elected president.

Obama can only be blamed for about $3 trillion in debt, the amount added since 2008.

And when you look at what it was spent on its hard to argue it. Were going into debt at about the same rate as under bush, but instead of spending it on destroying countries and tax cuts for the rich obama is spending it on domestic programs.

Im assuming now is the time you call the stimulus a failure without quoting any facts other than the unemployment rate.

 

[Contumacious]

What? The nation was well into debt before obama was even elected president. .

Yes, indeed.

The nation declared bankruptcy in 1935. The politicians used the event to steal our gold.

.

 

[cbirch2]

Oh, good. So there are actually TWO Founding Fathers, Jefferson and Franklin, and no others.

No actually theres like 50 something. And where did you get two? You should have at least said four, i mentioned Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams. I dont actually think you could name another one; besides maybe madison, who wasnt too friendly to religion himself.

Were those not the four most influential persons in revolutionary era america?

 

[kaz]

The founding fathers were far from the christians Palin, Bachmann, and Beck would have you believe they were

You have too much time on your hands. Arguing with Christians about Christianity is a waste of time and no one else cares

 

[Antiderivative]

We are not a christian nation, despite social conservative stating othwerise, trying to codify the bible, and even erasing Thomas Jefferson from the history books.

We have the BoR, not the 10 Commandments and they are either directly against at odds which each other or completely unrelated.

 

[cbirch2]

What? The nation was well into debt before obama was even elected president. .

Yes, indeed.

The naion declared bankruptcy in 1935. The politicians used the event to steal our gold.

.

Thats a giant exaggeration. There was no default on obligations, therefore no bankruptcy. As long as the market perceives that the united states is solvent theres no problem. Money doesnt have to be backed by a physical item. Money is a unit of information. Its backing is the financial security of the institution that issues it. As long as the united states of america continues to produce revenue in some fashion the dollar has underlying value, even if that underlying value isnt shiny enough to attraction your attention.

 

[Contumacious]

What? The nation was well into debt before obama was even elected president. .

Yes, indeed.

The naion declared bankruptcy in 1935. The politicians used the event to steal our gold.

.

Thats a giant exaggeration. There was no default on obligations, therefore no bankruptcy.

Bullshit.


By confiscating gold, making gold ownership illegal, and making its bills and notes irredeemable (in terms of what they had promised to pay), the federal government was doing its best to ensure that the American people could never protect themselves from the government’s ability to plunder and loot them through the Federal Reserve System’s inflationary policies.

.

 

[cbirch2]

Yes, indeed.

The naion declared bankruptcy in 1935. The politicians used the event to steal our gold.

.

Thats a giant exaggeration. There was no default on obligations, therefore no bankruptcy.

Bullshit.


By confiscating gold, making gold ownership illegal, and making its bills and notes irredeemable (in terms of what they had promised to pay), the federal government was doing its best to ensure that the American people could never protect themselves from the government’s ability to plunder and loot them through the Federal Reserve System’s inflationary policies.

.

Um, are you serious? The best you can do is to pull up a quote/article from a website thats so obviously biased? At least give me a statistic. Part of the title, "the federal government was doing its best to ensure that the American people could never protect themselves from the government’s ability to plunder and loot them through the Federal Reserve System’s inflationary policies", even frames the article in a biased way right off the bat. The statement that the government had such sinister motives is entirely an opinion.

Your whole argument hinges on the definition of a default. You say since they couldnt get their gold, there was a default. i say that since their purchasing power and ability to buy/lend/borrow remained the same, there was no default.

The price US dollar was still backed by the price of gold until richard nixon, btw....

 

[cbirch2]

And why did you not address the rest of my question? If were going to debate economics shouldnt you at least answer the economic arguments that i make?

Doesnt the very definition of a default mean that the markets no longer consider an institution to be solvent? So please, remind me again when that happened....

 

[Contumacious]

Thats a giant exaggeration. There was no default on obligations, therefore no bankruptcy.

Bullshit.


By confiscating gold, making gold ownership illegal, and making its bills and notes irredeemable (in terms of what they had promised to pay), the federal government was doing its best to ensure that the American people could never protect themselves from the government’s ability to plunder and loot them through the Federal Reserve System’s inflationary policies.

.

Um, are you serious? The best you can do is to pull up a quote/article from a website thats so obviously biased? At least give me a statistic. Part of the title, "the federal government was doing its best to ensure that the American people could never protect themselves from the government’s ability to plunder and loot them through the Federal Reserve System’s inflationary policies", even frames the article in a biased way right off the bat. The statement that the government had such sinister motives is entirely an opinion.

Your whole argument hinges on the definition of a default. You say since they couldnt get their gold, there was a default. i say that since their purchasing power and ability to buy/lend/borrow remained the same, there was no default.

The price US dollar was still backed by the price of gold until richard nixon, btw....

Yes, Nancy Pelosi, I am serious.

Dr Ron Paul: the ONLY solution is for the US to AGAIN Declare bankruptcy.

.

.

 

[Old Rocks]

The Christian Nation Myth

The Christian Nation Myth
Farrell Till
Whenever the Supreme Court makes a decision that in any way restricts the intrusion of religion into the affairs of government, a flood of editorials, articles, and letters protesting the ruling is sure to appear in the newspapers. Many protesters decry these decisions on the grounds that they conflict with the wishes and intents of the "founding fathers."

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

 

[cbirch2]

None of your links mean anything.

Was that video even supposed to start there, because Paul didnt say anything of substance at all.

The fact is that from 1935 until the nixon presidency that US dollar was backed by gold. So the very argument that there was a default in 1935 is false based on that alone. If your arguing about anything it should be against nixon taking us off the gold standard. But not even that means anything because money doesnt have to be based on gold. A gold backed economy provides a safety net, but also comes with a ceiling. Instead, our monetary system is based on the total production of the us economy and the value that the market perceives it has. You may not like that system, but it doesnt mean its an invalid system.

Isnt the very basis of pauls free market ideology that the markets decide what is or is not a good investment? If the united states defaulted where was the market reaction? Why does the market still judge it as solvent? Its because the value of the dollar is backed by what we as a nation produce.

 

[Contumacious]

None of your links mean anything.

Was that video even supposed to start there, because Paul didnt say anything of substance at all.

The fact is that from 1935 until the nixon presidency that US dollar was backed by gold. So the very argument that there was a default in 1935 is false based on that alone. If your arguing about anything it should be against nixon taking us off the gold standard.

You are completely and totally retarded.

Go to a law library and read these three cases:

Norman v. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Co., 294 U.S. 240; Nortz v. United States, 294 U.S. 317; and Perry v. United States, 294 U.S. 330. All three argued 8–11 Jan. 1935, decided 18 Feb. 1935 by votes of 5 to 4; Hughes for the Court, McReynolds in dissent in each case. As part of the New Deal program to conserve gold reserves during the economic emergency of the Great Depression, Congress in 1933 abrogated the clauses in private and public contracts stipulating payment in gold

.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I would be very interested if you found any quotes from Jefferson, Washington, or Franklin that specifically support religion. Because they werent christians. Those three were openly not christian.

Allow me, pinhead.

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." - George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson

"Truro Parish [Episcopal] is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother...

He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].

My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.

He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven].

Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."" - from a letter by Nelly Custis-Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter, who was adopted by George and Martha Washington as a child

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." - George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." - "The Writings of Washington", pp. 342-343.

And while we're on the subject of the Founding Fathers (and there were definitely more than two or three):

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." - John Adams, 2nd President and signer of the Declaration of Independence

""The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." - from a letter by John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever." - from a letter by John Adams to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776

As for the leftist atheist bigot's favorite, Thomas Jefferson:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." - The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385

And that other favorite of leftist atheist bigots, Benjamin Franklin:

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790

How about some more Founding Fathers leftists like to forget exist?

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." - John Hancock

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace." - Samuel Adams, as Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ." - James Madison

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment." - Roger Sherman

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!" - Benjamin Rush

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy." - Benjamin Rush

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God." - Benjamin Rush

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country." - John Witherspoon

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man." - Alexander Hamilton

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible." - John Jay

I can go on, if you need more.

 

[cbirch2]

If you make claims of a default you should probably find at least one actual article that says the word

Were back to the definition of default. If gold is the only form of payment you accept then there was a default. The problem is that the markets dont just accept gold as payment, and therefore there was no default.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Because we all know Thomas Jefferson was THE ONLY Founding Father there was, thus all of the Founding Fathers can be judged by highly cherrypicked quotes from him.

Don't be any more of a public dumbass than nature forces on you, okay?

Come back and talk to us when you've read any of the source documents whose minute quotes you so cherish, and can tell us, in your own words, what the man was actually talking about.

Furthermore, when I want to hear from you on what Christians are like and what they believe, Reverend cbirch, rest assured, I will ask you. Until then, spare us your judgements based on your undoubtedly "extensive" knowledge of and research into the teachings of Christianity.

Yes, because maybe Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin, and Paine werent about the 5 most influential people of that era...??

Seriously? Yea its not significant at all that the first three presidents and the most influential inventor/philosopher of the period had no deep affiliation to the christian church, yet one political party continues to claim they did.

You see no problem with that?

What the hell is the "christian church"? You mean the Christian Church, the official denomination going by that legal name? No, they all attended other denominations. So far as I know, that is the only "christian church" in existence. If you mean Christianity in general, then you're an uneducated dumbfuck who needs to refer to my previous post.