So we were supposed to be a christian nation huh....?

[cbirch2]

I would be very interested if you found any quotes from Jefferson, Washington, or Franklin that specifically support religion. Because they werent christians. Those three were openly not christian.

Allow me, pinhead.

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." - George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson

"Truro Parish [Episcopal] is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother...

He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].

My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.

He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven].

Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."" - from a letter by Nelly Custis-Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter, who was adopted by George and Martha Washington as a child

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." - George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." - "The Writings of Washington", pp. 342-343.

And while we're on the subject of the Founding Fathers (and there were definitely more than two or three):

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." - John Adams, 2nd President and signer of the Declaration of Independence

""The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." - from a letter by John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever." - from a letter by John Adams to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776

As for the leftist atheist bigot's favorite, Thomas Jefferson:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." - The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385

And that other favorite of leftist atheist bigots, Benjamin Franklin:

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790

How about some more Founding Fathers leftists like to forget exist?

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." - John Hancock

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace." - Samuel Adams, as Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ." - James Madison

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment." - Roger Sherman

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!" - Benjamin Rush

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy." - Benjamin Rush

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God." - Benjamin Rush

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country." - John Witherspoon

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man." - Alexander Hamilton

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible." - John Jay

I can go on, if you need more.

and if spent all that time, rather than 5 minutes, i could come up with just as many quotes. Not to mention half of that about washington was copy pasta from wikipedia about things his adopted daughter thought about his faith, rather than his faith alone. Most of the quotes in reference to god, particularly in reference to jefferson, are references to a deist god. Jefferson says he is a christian in that sense many times. If you would actually read closer youd find quotes about how he agrees with teachings of christ, exactly like i said, but not with the establishment or the miracles of the bible

 

[cbirch2]

Because we all know Thomas Jefferson was THE ONLY Founding Father there was, thus all of the Founding Fathers can be judged by highly cherrypicked quotes from him.

Don't be any more of a public dumbass than nature forces on you, okay?

Come back and talk to us when you've read any of the source documents whose minute quotes you so cherish, and can tell us, in your own words, what the man was actually talking about.

Furthermore, when I want to hear from you on what Christians are like and what they believe, Reverend cbirch, rest assured, I will ask you. Until then, spare us your judgements based on your undoubtedly "extensive" knowledge of and research into the teachings of Christianity.

Yes, because maybe Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin, and Paine werent about the 5 most influential people of that era...??

Seriously? Yea its not significant at all that the first three presidents and the most influential inventor/philosopher of the period had no deep affiliation to the christian church, yet one political party continues to claim they did.

You see no problem with that?

What the hell is the "christian church"? You mean the Christian Church, the official denomination going by that legal name? No, they all attended other denominations. So far as I know, that is the only "christian church" in existence. If you mean Christianity in general, then you're an uneducated dumbfuck who needs to refer to my previous post.

wow uneducated dumb fuck? ok, answer me this.

So when Jefferson says this, what did he mean: "But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820;

And when adams says this of the divinity of jesus, what did he mean: "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

and when franklin says this, whats he mean: ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."


Anyone that claims the founding fathers were Christians before logical empiricists, rather than the other way around, is just lying.

 

[SFC Ollie]

"I never doubted, for instance, the existence of a Diety; that he made the world and governed it by his providence." - Ben Franklin, autobiography, 1791

"I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat." - Benajamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence and proclaimed father of public schools, 1798

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States." George Washington, April 30, 1789

"Religion is the basis and foundation of government. ... Before any man can be considered a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." James Madison, 1785, author of the U.S. Constitution

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. ... What a utopia, what a paradise, this region would be!" John Adams, Feb. 22, 1756

"Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, united their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of incalculating the minds of youth, the fear and love of the Diety ... in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams, 1790, father of the American Revolution

"Where, some say, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above." Thomas Paine, 1776

The Continental Congress, 1782, commissioned Robert Aitken to print Bibles saying they should be "a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools."

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by protstrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."
Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice 1833.

 

[Contumacious]

If you make claims of a default you should probably find at least one actual article that says the wordWere back to the definition of default. If gold is the only form of payment you accept then there was a default. .

Excuse me ding dong , but prior to 1935 the currency was redeemable in GOLD

.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Oh, good. So there are actually TWO Founding Fathers, Jefferson and Franklin, and no others.

No actually theres like 50 something. And where did you get two? You should have at least said four, i mentioned Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and Adams. I dont actually think you could name another one; besides maybe madison, who wasnt too friendly to religion himself.

Were those not the four most influential persons in revolutionary era america?

Where am I getting two? From the fact that you and other dimwit religious bigots like you haul out Jefferson and Franklin and no one else while making grand, sweeping statements about "the Founding Fathers". As, in fact, you have already done.

And no, there were many more influential persons in that era than just those, History Boy. While Washington was undoubtedly among the most highly-thought-of men of that time (and a devout Episcopalian, however much you may hate the fact), the colonies that then became the United States of America had many men as equally influential as the others you list, which is why the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution both had so many signatures.

But none of the four you mention were the Christianity-haters you want them to be, no matter HOW much you cut and chop and hack at their words to produce quotes. See my post concerning quotes from many of the Founding Fathers and their contemporaries.

 

[cbirch2]

"I never doubted, for instance, the existence of a Diety; that he made the world and governed it by his providence." - Ben Franklin, autobiography, 1791

"I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat." - Benajamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence and proclaimed father of public schools, 1798

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States." George Washington, April 30, 1789

"Religion is the basis and foundation of government. ... Before any man can be considered a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." James Madison, 1785, author of the U.S. Constitution

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. ... What a utopia, what a paradise, this region would be!" John Adams, Feb. 22, 1756

"Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, united their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of incalculating the minds of youth, the fear and love of the Diety ... in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." Samuel Adams, 1790, father of the American Revolution

"Where, some say, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above." Thomas Paine, 1776

The Continental Congress, 1782, commissioned Robert Aitken to print Bibles saying they should be "a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools."

"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by protstrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government."
Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice 1833.

Just because they reference god does not mean they were christian. Ive already said they were deist. They believed in an abstract god of natural laws, not usually in the literal trinity.

"Where, some say, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above." Thomas Paine, 1776

Your really going to claim that Thomas Paine was a christian? Thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard

 

[Avatar4321]

I had been religiously educated as a Presbyterian; and though some of the dogmas of that persuasion, such as the Eternal Decrees of God, election, reprobation, etc., appeared to me unintelligible, others doubtful, and early absented myself from public assemblies of the sect, Sunday being my Study day, I was never without some religious principles. For example, I never doubted the existance of Diety; that He made the world and governed it by His Providence; that the most acceptable service to God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter. These I esteemed the essentials of every religion; and being to be found in all the religions we had in our country, I respected them all, though with different degrees of respect, as I found them more or less mixed with other articles, which, without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, served principally to divide us, and make us unfriendly one to another. This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induced me to avoid all discussion that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; and as our province increased in people, and new places of worship were continually wanted, and generaly erected by voluntary contribution, my might for such purpose, whatever might be the sect, was never refused. (Autobiography - WBF 1:185)

Considering this comes from Franklin's autobiography, I think you can see that he clearly supported religion. He believed in God. And He practiced what He believed. And as he stated, He would encourage religious belief and donate money to build churches from whomever asked.

If you want to see Washington promoting faith, read his Innagural address. Read His farewell addrerss. He was a man of incredible faith. I'd recommend reading "Sacred Fire" sometime. It's a biography on Washington and speaks directly to his faith.

Jefferson wrote his own translation to the Bible. No. He wasn't a Christian in the traditional sense of the word, but He tried to follow what He believed from the Bible.

I don't know why you have to take away the faith these men had. It was part of who they were. You try to look at someone while denying a part of who they are and you will never see an accurate picture.

 

[Intense]

The founding fathers were far from the christians Palin, Bachmann, and Beck would have you believe they were. Most of them went to church, but what they wrote and what they said paint a definite picture of a group of people that were dedicated more to the abstract principles that the church tried to teach, and didnt particularly believe in the institution itself. Ill provide a few quotes from Thomas Jefferson.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."

"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."


Doesnt he sound like he would love the science denying bible thumping christians of today?

Ennumerating the Founding Fathers
The three major foundational documents of the United States of America are the Declaration of Independence (July 1776), the Articles of Confederation (drafted 1777, ratified 1781) and the Constitution of the United States of America (1789). There are a total of 143 signatures on these documents, representing 118 different signers. (Some individuals signed more than one document.)

There were 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence. There were 48 signers of the Articles of Confederation. All 55 delegates who participated in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 are regarded as Founding Fathers, in fact, they are often regarded as the Founding Fathers because it is this group that actually debated, drafted and signed the U.S. Constitution, which is the basis for the country's political and legal system. Only 39 delegates actually signed the document, however, meaning there were 16 non-signing delegates - individuals who were Constitutional Convention delegates but were not signers of the Constitution.

There were 95 Senators and Representatives in the First Federal Congress. If one combines the total number of signatures on the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution with the non-signing Constitutional Convention delegates, and then adds to that sum the number of congressmen in the First Federal Congress, one obtains a total of 238 "slots" or "positions" in these groups which one can classify as "Founding Fathers" of the United States. Because 40 individuals had multiple roles (they signed multiple documents and/or also served in the First Federal Congress), there are 204 unique individuals in this group of "Founding Fathers." These are the people who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

The religious affiliations of these individuals are summarized below. Obviously this is a very restrictive set of names, and does not include everyone who could be considered an "American Founding Father." But most of the major figures that people generally think of in this context are included using these criteria, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

Are there not enough Threads on this for you Sparky???

 

[cbirch2]

if you make claims of a default you should probably find at least one actual article that says the wordwere back to the definition of default. If gold is the only form of payment you accept then there was a default. .

excuse me ding dong , but prior to 1935 the currency was redeemable in gold

.

what is your point!!?!?!?! That doesnt mean there was a default! Make sense just one time!

 

[Intense]

Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves.

Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)

 

[cbirch2]

I had been religiously educated as a Presbyterian; and though some of the dogmas of that persuasion, such as the Eternal Decrees of God, election, reprobation, etc., appeared to me unintelligible, others doubtful, and early absented myself from public assemblies of the sect, Sunday being my Study day, I was never without some religious principles. For example, I never doubted the existance of Diety; that He made the world and governed it by His Providence; that the most acceptable service to God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter. These I esteemed the essentials of every religion; and being to be found in all the religions we had in our country, I respected them all, though with different degrees of respect, as I found them more or less mixed with other articles, which, without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, served principally to divide us, and make us unfriendly one to another. This respect to all, with an opinion that the worst had some good effects, induced me to avoid all discussion that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; and as our province increased in people, and new places of worship were continually wanted, and generaly erected by voluntary contribution, my might for such purpose, whatever might be the sect, was never refused. (Autobiography - WBF 1:185)

Considering this comes from Franklin's autobiography, I think you can see that he clearly supported religion. He believed in God. And He practiced what He believed. And as he stated, He would encourage religious belief and donate money to build churches from whomever asked.

If you want to see Washington promoting faith, read his Innagural address. Read His farewell addrerss. He was a man of incredible faith. I'd recommend reading "Sacred Fire" sometime. It's a biography on Washington and speaks directly to his faith.

Jefferson wrote his own translation to the Bible. No. He wasn't a Christian in the traditional sense of the word, but He tried to follow what He believed from the Bible.

I don't know why you have to take away the faith these men had. It was part of who they were. You try to look at someone while denying a part of who they are and you will never see an accurate picture.

Franklin: Did not believe in the Christian god. that is a reference to the deist god he believed in

Washington: He never received communion. Fact.

Jefferson: Yup, he wrote his own translation of the bible. It was called the moral teachings of jesus of nazareth. He removed all mention of jesus having been divine, and instead used it as moral teaching.

 

[Contumacious]

if you make claims of a default you should probably find at least one actual article that says the wordwere back to the definition of default. If gold is the only form of payment you accept then there was a default. .

excuse me ding dong , but prior to 1935 the currency was redeemable in gold

.

what is your point!!?!?!?! That doesnt mean there was a default! Make sense just one time!

I believe that you are too far gone to understand


Bankruptcy -- a federal law Whereby a person's assets are turned over to a trustee and used to pay off outstanding debts; this usually occurs when someone owes more than they have the ability to repay.

.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I would be very interested if you found any quotes from Jefferson, Washington, or Franklin that specifically support religion. Because they werent christians. Those three were openly not christian.

Allow me, pinhead.

"The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." - George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson

"Truro Parish [Episcopal] is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother...

He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].

My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.

He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven].

Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."" - from a letter by Nelly Custis-Lewis, Martha Washington's granddaughter, who was adopted by George and Martha Washington as a child

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." - George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." - "The Writings of Washington", pp. 342-343.

And while we're on the subject of the Founding Fathers (and there were definitely more than two or three):

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." - John Adams, 2nd President and signer of the Declaration of Independence

""The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." - from a letter by John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever." - from a letter by John Adams to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776

As for the leftist atheist bigot's favorite, Thomas Jefferson:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." - The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385

And that other favorite of leftist atheist bigots, Benjamin Franklin:

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790

How about some more Founding Fathers leftists like to forget exist?

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." - John Hancock

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace." - Samuel Adams, as Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ." - James Madison

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment." - Roger Sherman

"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!" - Benjamin Rush

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy." - Benjamin Rush

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God." - Benjamin Rush

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country." - John Witherspoon

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man." - Alexander Hamilton

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible." - John Jay

I can go on, if you need more.

and if spent all that time, rather than 5 minutes, i could come up with just as many quotes. Not to mention half of that about washington was copy pasta from wikipedia about things his adopted daughter thought about his faith, rather than his faith alone. Most of the quotes in reference to god, particularly in reference to jefferson, are references to a deist god. Jefferson says he is a christian in that sense many times. If you would actually read closer youd find quotes about how he agrees with teachings of christ, exactly like i said, but not with the establishment or the miracles of the bible

I guarantee you that I spent about the same amount of time on those very UNEDITED quotes from numerous sources as you did on your little, highly expurgated quotes from two guys. Telling me what you COULD do ain't doing it, bucko, and it doesn't prove that you could; it just proves that you can run your gums, and that you'd RATHER run them than put your money where your mouth is.

Furthermore, objecting to testimony from Washington's adopted daughter, who lived with him for twenty years, concerning his habits and beliefs because it's not a direct quote from Washinton himself is specious at best, especially since I ALSO included quotes from Washington. Nice try, but no soap, asshole. If I'm supposed to believe "the Founding Fathers" weren't Christians because you cherrypicked some quotes from Thomas Jefferson without any context, then you can suck it up and accept direct testimony from one of the people who knew George Washington the best.

I sincerely doubt you would know a Deist if one fell on you, let alone what they believe. Nevertheless, the idea that George Washington founded an Episcopalian Church, which certainly DOES believe in the divinity of Christ, and assiduously attended it and even served as its vestryman while personally believing they were full of shit is stupid on the face of it. Perhaps YOU are such a hypocrite, I wouldn't know; there's no reason to attribute that personality trait to George Washington.

As for Jefferson, how about the one where he declares himself a Christian in those very terms? Miss that one while you were desperately trying to pretend he was speaking as a Deist, whatever the hell you think THAT is?

And I'm still waiting for you to tell me the context of YOUR quotes, given that they were extremely short AND edited, and came from a very long and dense letter which I doubt highly that you have ever read. Let's have it, Chucklehead. If you think you get to throw out three or four quotes and then spend the rest of the time attacking others instead of defending your own premise, you're as sadly mistaken about that as you are about the Founding Fathers, most of whom you resolutely ignore.

 

[Intense]

[14] Thus the State never intentionally confronts a man's sense, intellectual or moral, but only his body, his senses. It is not armed with superior wit or honesty, but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest. What force has a multitude? They only can force me who obey a higher law than I. They force me to become like themselves. I do not hear of men being forced to have this way or that by masses of men. What sort of life were that to live? When I meet a government which says to me, "Your money or your life," why should I be in haste to give it my money? It may be in a great strait, and not know what to do: I cannot help that. It must help itself; do as I do. It is not worth the while to snivel about it. I am not responsible for the successful working of the machinery of society. I am not the son of the engineer. I perceive that, when an acorn and a chestnut fall side by side, the one does not remain inert to make way for the other, but both obey their own laws, and spring and grow and flourish as best they can, till one, perchance, overshadows and destroys the other. If a plant cannot live according to its nature, it dies; and so a man.
-Thoreau Thoreau's Civil Disobedience - 2
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[17] They who know of no purer sources of truth, who have traced up its stream no higher, stand, and wisely stand, by the Bible and the Constitution, and drink at it there with reverence and humility; but they who behold where it comes trickling into this lake or that pool, gird up their loins once more, and continue their pilgrimage toward its fountain-head.

[18] No man with a genius for legislation has appeared in America. They are rare in the history of the world. There are orators, politicians, and eloquent men, by the thousand; but the speaker has not yet opened his mouth to speak who is capable of settling the much-vexed questions of the day. We love eloquence for its own sake, and not for any truth which it may utter, or any heroism it may inspire. Our legislators have not yet learned the comparative value of free-trade and of freedom, of union, and of rectitude, to a nation. They have no genius or talent for comparatively humble questions of taxation and finance, commerce and manufacturers and agriculture. If we were left solely to the wordy wit of legislators in Congress for our guidance, uncorrected by the seasonable experience and the effectual complaints of the people, America would not long retain her rank among the nations. For eighteen hundred years, though perchance I have no right to say it, the New Testament has been written; yet where is the legislator who has wisdom and practical talent enough to avail himself of the light which it sheds on the science of legislation?

[19] The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to — for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know nor can do so well — is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it. The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarchy to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher (8) was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly. I please myself with imagining a State at least which can afford to be just to all men, and to treat the individual with respect as a neighbor; which even would not think it inconsistent with its own repose if a few were to live aloof from it, not meddling with it, nor embraced by it, who fulfilled all the duties of neighbors and fellow-men. A State which bore this kind of fruit, and suffered it to drop off as fast as it ripened, would prepare the way for a still more perfect and glorious State, which also I have imagined, but not yet anywhere seen.
-Thoreau Thoreau's Civil Disobedience - 3

So we were supposed to be a christian nation huh....? No.
We are not supposed to be a Statist Utopia either Sparky, cleanse thy Soul. Say no to the Hive, The Collective is not your friend.

 

[cbirch2]

As for Jefferson, how about the one where he declares himself a Christian in those very terms? Miss that one while you were desperately trying to pretend he was speaking as a Deist, whatever the hell you think THAT is?

Dude are you serious? If the idea of deism is foreign to you then your not qualified to have this argument. Jefferson says hes a christian in the sense that he supports the teachings of jesus christ. Hes not a christian in the sense that be believes the bible.

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him (i.e. Jesus) by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”

There is a very distinct difference in believing in what jesus taught, and believing that he was the son of god born of an immaculate birth. Thomas jefferson certainly did not believe the latter, and you will not find one quote that hints that he does.

 

[cbirch2]

excuse me ding dong , but prior to 1935 the currency was redeemable in gold

.

what is your point!!?!?!?! That doesnt mean there was a default! Make sense just one time!

I believe that you are too far gone to understand


Bankruptcy -- a federal law Whereby a person's assets are turned over to a trustee and used to pay off outstanding debts; this usually occurs when someone owes more than they have the ability to repay.

.

You have yet to link that to anything that happened in 1935. The fact is that the government still reimbursed those to which it owed debt, it just did not reimburse them with gold. No where in your definition does it say payment must be made in gold.

 

[Contumacious]

what is your point!!?!?!?! That doesnt mean there was a default! Make sense just one time!

I believe that you are too far gone to understand


Bankruptcy -- a federal law Whereby a person's assets are turned over to a trustee and used to pay off outstanding debts; this usually occurs when someone owes more than they have the ability to repay.

.

You have yet to link that to anything that happened in 1935. The fact is that the government still reimbursed those to which it owed debt, it just did not reimburse them with gold. No where in your definition does it say payment must be made in gold.

Excuse me fucktard,

did the note state that they were REDEEMABLE IN GOLD?

IS GOLD AND PAPER THE SAME THING.

SON OF A BITCH, how can someone be so fucking dumb?!?!?!?!?!?!?


.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yes, because maybe Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin, and Paine werent about the 5 most influential people of that era...??

Seriously? Yea its not significant at all that the first three presidents and the most influential inventor/philosopher of the period had no deep affiliation to the christian church, yet one political party continues to claim they did.

You see no problem with that?

What the hell is the "christian church"? You mean the Christian Church, the official denomination going by that legal name? No, they all attended other denominations. So far as I know, that is the only "christian church" in existence. If you mean Christianity in general, then you're an uneducated dumbfuck who needs to refer to my previous post.

wow uneducated dumb fuck? ok, answer me this.

So when Jefferson says this, what did he mean: "But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820;

It's YOUR quote, Sparky. Why don't you try reading the whole letter for context and then you'll KNOW what he meant.

And when adams says this of the divinity of jesus, what did he mean: "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

Same answer.

and when franklin says this, whats he mean: ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Hurray. You found one frigging guy in the entire American colonies who was a Deist (which no one has ever denied, by the way). Frabjous day. Now if only you knew what THAT meant, and stopped trying to paint ALL of the Founders with the same broad brush, we'd really be somewhere.

Anyone that claims the founding fathers were Christians before logical empiricists, rather than the other way around, is just lying.

Anyone who claims the Founders took their religion so lightly as to just attend church to look good, simply because THEY THEMSELVES are hypocrites, is just garbage who needs everyone else to be garbage as well so they don't have to feel guilty about it.

Try again, shithead. Oh, and any time you want to grow a pair and talk about some of the other dozens of people who signed the Declaration and the Constitution, instead of pretendingv they were meaningless rubber stamps for the two or three you want to cherrypick, let me know. I won't hold my breath for your manning up, though. After all, it's been four pages, and you're still a Ken doll so far.

 

[cbirch2]

I believe that you are too far gone to understand


Bankruptcy -- a federal law Whereby a person's assets are turned over to a trustee and used to pay off outstanding debts; this usually occurs when someone owes more than they have the ability to repay.

.

You have yet to link that to anything that happened in 1935. The fact is that the government still reimbursed those to which it owed debt, it just did not reimburse them with gold. No where in your definition does it say payment must be made in gold.

Excuse me fucktard,

did the note state that they were REDEEMABLE IN GOLD?

IS GOLD AND PAPER THE SAME THING.

SON OF A BITCH, how can someone be so fucking dumb?!?!?!?!?!?!?


.

Dude just because you can swear doesnt mean your right. It just means your getting more and more frustrated.

Two points. please answer these specifically and separately:

1. What you cant seem to realize is that the market didnt care if payment was made in gold and that is what a default really is. The government did not default because it made payments, simply in a different form. If the market accepts those payments thats all that matters. Your saying there was a default by making up rules, namely that money has to be back by gold. But in reality money is backed by whatever the market says it is. If the market says money is legal tender than it is.

2. The dollar was backed by gold until like 1971.

There was no default because the government reimbursed those it took gold from with a form of tender that the markets were just as willing to accept as gold

You do not get to create rules. Just because you say gold is the only form of acceptable payment does not mean that is fact. There is not a default because payment is made in a different way than they said it would, your just pulling that out of your ass. Payment was made, just not in the manner promised.

 

[cbirch2]

What the hell is the "christian church"? You mean the Christian Church, the official denomination going by that legal name? No, they all attended other denominations. So far as I know, that is the only "christian church" in existence. If you mean Christianity in general, then you're an uneducated dumbfuck who needs to refer to my previous post.

wow uneducated dumb fuck? ok, answer me this.

So when Jefferson says this, what did he mean: "But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- letter to William Short, April 13, 1820;

It's YOUR quote, Sparky. Why don't you try reading the whole letter for context and then you'll KNOW what he meant.



Same answer.

and when franklin says this, whats he mean: ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Hurray. You found one frigging guy in the entire American colonies who was a Deist (which no one has ever denied, by the way). Frabjous day. Now if only you knew what THAT meant, and stopped trying to paint ALL of the Founders with the same broad brush, we'd really be somewhere.

Anyone that claims the founding fathers were Christians before logical empiricists, rather than the other way around, is just lying.

Anyone who claims the Founders took their religion so lightly as to just attend church to look good, simply because THEY THEMSELVES are hypocrites, is just garbage who needs everyone else to be garbage as well so they don't have to feel guilty about it.

Try again, shithead. Oh, and any time you want to grow a pair and talk about some of the other dozens of people who signed the Declaration and the Constitution, instead of pretendingv they were meaningless rubber stamps for the two or three you want to cherrypick, let me know. I won't hold my breath for your manning up, though. After all, it's been four pages, and you're still a Ken doll so far.

Wow. people here really resort to insults fast. It just proves you dont know what your talking about. You didnt refute one thing i said. please, you stupid ignorant inbred faggot (not in a homophobic way) fuck, find me one quote in which Thomas Jefferson references the divinity of jesus.

Please, you fucking dumbass, tell me why Thomas Jefferson would rewrite the entire bible, removing any mention of jesus's divinity, if he thought that jesus was the son of god.

god damnit you are fucking stupid.