Minimum Wage Increase: They Never Talks About the SALES

[LOki]

We have legal immigration that affects lower end wages.

We have illegal immigrants, in the millions, that affects lower end wages.

We have an over supply of lower end workers, because of the recession we went through and many slightly better paying jobs were eliminated, or the business owners rehired people at minimum wage to fill the jobs...

We have the Affordable Care Act that affects this as well...

and we have Trade Policy over the decades that also has moved higher skilled jobs overseas, leaving these individuals in the market place looking for jobs...

and we have Corporate tax policy that also affects this.....

I am CERTAIN if I had a few more minutes I could list a bunch of other things....

Simply eliminating the minimum wage, or never raising it again, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point....and doing such at this point when so many other policies get in the way of the "market" to work freely have to be addressed ALL AT ONCE if we truly think this 'change' is needed.

IT IS NOT simply, If I want to accept a wage lower than minimum wage.....NO ONE WANTS to do this when minimum wage is so low already, BUT THEY WILL out of desperation....that's immoral to put that upon the desperate.

you want to get paid less for babysitting or cleaning a neighbor's house, or mowing his lawn, then go right ahead....

If we have an 'over-supply' of unskilled labor, then logically we would want to make it more affordable to hire unskilled labor. That's an argument to eliminate the minimum wage.

Affordable Care Act, makes hiring unskilled labor more expensive. That's bad for those people.

The value of labor, changes over time. It goes up, and it goes down. Nothing is static.
If the value of the labor declines, because of a recession, then wages must fall. Basic economics.

Trade is inherently a benefit to everyone. No country becomes wealthy following protectionism. The reason jobs moved over seas, is not because of trade. It's because of bad policies driving out jobs in the US.

Corporate Tax policy, does indeed push jobs out of the US.

Would the "desperate" be better off, or worse off, earning zero, over earning a wage? I'd say worse off.

If we raised the minimum wage on baby sitting, or lawn mowing, or cleaning homes, fewer people would be hired to do that, and those people would earn far less, if anything.

here's the thing.....they are not Unskilled, I know it makes us with higher positions in life feel better when we say these are just unskilled workers.....but that's simply our own lie to make us justify unliveable wages....

They are skilled workers, in what they are needed for....and you couldn't pay me enough to do what some of these min wage workers do.....especially the "care workers" who clean up your grand mother's piss and poop by lifting their bodies, spoon feeding them while not choking them, change their bed sheets, lifting them....and all with a smile and a min wage....

And no way in hell would I want to go back to selling shoes on the sales floor for 8 hours in stilettos, back and forth to the Stockroom to get them their shoes, rerun the shoes they chose not to buy back in to the "wall" in the proper place, organizing the stock, shifting the stock, tightening down the stock in numerical order, unloading new shipments, running them in the proper place in the "Wall", replacing samples on the floor that were sold, dusting and cleaning the sales floor, rearranging the sales floor stock to new schematics.... I can go on and on..... but the bottom line..... I was exhausted and my feet were "barking" at the end of each day.....

That's why I had to get a promotion....My body could not take it any longer and I was a mere teenager....

Every job takes skill and labor...even a janitors job develops skill in what they do......

There is an over supply of workers needing a job, who are over skilled, no fault of their own...And these better workers ARE being hired over the New teen trying to enter the market.... lowering the min wage doesn't put more min wage workers to work.... it would take jobs of those more skilled away....a swap for lower wages, at best.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

 

[LOki]

And again, please DEFINE WORTH.....What parameters are you using to define worth of a "job"? Is this one sided?

P.s. I'll be back later to try to respond to everyone else's posts....

Yet more diversion to avoid providing straightforward answers to straightforward questions.

I have no special definition of "worth" to offer you. Crack open a dictionary, Cupcake... look up the definition of "worth" yourself, and answer the questions:

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

 

[Skull Pilot]

The technology made them better is a rationalization. Their work has more value because they are more productive. Period. End of story. They should be paid more.

The machines doing the work are more productive

If anything a lower skilled worker who would never have gotten a job in precision manufacturing can now have a job.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

What retail stores do you go to?

Most of them are ghost towns and a sales clerk is impossible to find. And any retail sales job in a mall is basically nothing but a stock clerk or cashier. There is no skill required

If you want to make money in sales then work on commission. No one makes money working retail sales

 

[paulitician]

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

Spot On. Retail is probably the worst. The workers are over-worked and under-paid. They come to hate the customers over time. And ya can't blame em. They deal with insane hateful people all day and get paid like shit. I had a relative who worked in Management at Walmart for years. And oh man, the horror stories he told me. Customers defecating on floors, constantly cussing employees out, and so on.

People who work in Retail not only deserve more money, they also deserve medals. Working with the Public is horrific. You never know what kind of deranged hateful loon you're gonna run into. So you really did nail it. But don't waste too much time debating the angry greedy white Republican dudes. Their all about, "If we could just pay workers shittier wages, all of the world's problems would disappear immediately." It's always the workers' fault in Angry Greedy White Republican Dude World.

 

[LOki]

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

Spot On. Retail is probably the worst. The workers are over-worked and under-paid. They come to hate the customers over time. And ya can't blame em. They deal with insane hateful people all day and get paid like shit. I had a relative who worked in Management at Walmart for years. And oh man, the horror stories he told me. Customers defecating on floors, constantly cussing employees out, and so on.

People who work in Retail not only deserve more money, they also deserve medals. Working with the Public is horrific. You never know what kind of deranged hateful loon you're gonna run into. So you really did nail it. But don't waste too much time debating the angry greedy white Republican dudes. Their all about, "If we could just pay workers shittier wages, all of the world's problems would disappear immediately." It's always the workers' fault in Angry Greedy White Republican Dude World.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

 

[paulitician]

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

Spot On. Retail is probably the worst. The workers are over-worked and under-paid. They come to hate the customers over time. And ya can't blame em. They deal with insane hateful people all day and get paid like shit. I had a relative who worked in Management at Walmart for years. And oh man, the horror stories he told me. Customers defecating on floors, constantly cussing employees out, and so on.

People who work in Retail not only deserve more money, they also deserve medals. Working with the Public is horrific. You never know what kind of deranged hateful loon you're gonna run into. So you really did nail it. But don't waste too much time debating the angry greedy white Republican dudes. Their all about, "If we could just pay workers shittier wages, all of the world's problems would disappear immediately." It's always the workers' fault in Angry Greedy White Republican Dude World.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Already had that discussion. You angry greedy white Republican dudes don't have morals. That's why there's a Minimum Wage in the first place. No one is counting on you assholes to ever do the right thing.

 

[LOki]

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

Spot On. Retail is probably the worst. The workers are over-worked and under-paid. They come to hate the customers over time. And ya can't blame em. They deal with insane hateful people all day and get paid like shit. I had a relative who worked in Management at Walmart for years. And oh man, the horror stories he told me. Customers defecating on floors, constantly cussing employees out, and so on.

People who work in Retail not only deserve more money, they also deserve medals. Working with the Public is horrific. You never know what kind of deranged hateful loon you're gonna run into. So you really did nail it. But don't waste too much time debating the angry greedy white Republican dudes. Their all about, "If we could just pay workers shittier wages, all of the world's problems would disappear immediately." It's always the workers' fault in Angry Greedy White Republican Dude World.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Already had that discussion.

You did not answer the questions at all. Never happened.

You angry greedy white Republican dudes don't have morals.

Entirely baseless accusations. Made up of nothing. A delusion.

That's why there's a Minimum Wage in the first place.

An assertion without basis in any fact of evidence. A fairy tale. A construct of fiction.

No one is counting on you assholes to ever do the right thing.

Meaningless misdirection from the verifiable fact of reality that you are an intellectual coward who refuses to provide straightforward answers to to the following straightforward questions out of shame:

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?​

 

[paulitician]

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

Spot On. Retail is probably the worst. The workers are over-worked and under-paid. They come to hate the customers over time. And ya can't blame em. They deal with insane hateful people all day and get paid like shit. I had a relative who worked in Management at Walmart for years. And oh man, the horror stories he told me. Customers defecating on floors, constantly cussing employees out, and so on.

People who work in Retail not only deserve more money, they also deserve medals. Working with the Public is horrific. You never know what kind of deranged hateful loon you're gonna run into. So you really did nail it. But don't waste too much time debating the angry greedy white Republican dudes. Their all about, "If we could just pay workers shittier wages, all of the world's problems would disappear immediately." It's always the workers' fault in Angry Greedy White Republican Dude World.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Already had that discussion.

You did not answer the questions at all. Never happened.

You angry greedy white Republican dudes don't have morals.

Entirely baseless accusations. Made up of nothing. A delusion.

That's why there's a Minimum Wage in the first place.

An assertion without basis in any fact of evidence. A fairy tale. A construct of fiction.

No one is counting on you assholes to ever do the right thing.

Meaningless misdirection from the verifiable fact of reality that you are an intellectual coward who refuses to provide straightforward answers to to the following straightforward questions out of shame:

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?​

Yes, pay those evil workers even shittier wages. That'll solve all the problems in the world. Is that really gonna be the Angry Greedy White Republican Dude Platform for 2016? Good luck with that. Democrats in a Landslide.

 

[Dragonlady]

If you accept a wages below the minimum wage, you're not making enough to support yourself in even the most basic way. This means you will require social assistance to cover your basic needs.

If you are ready, willing and able to work full time, and accept a job which won't cover your basic living expenses, you put a burden on taxpayers to support you. By what right do you sell your labour so cheaply that you need the labour of others to support you?

 

[dblack]

And again, please DEFINE WORTH.....What parameters are you using to define worth of a "job"? Is this one sided?

The only parameter is how much someone else is willing to pay.

Care4all - I hope you don't take this as merely a quip. It's central to the conversation, and why some of us see minimum wage laws as completely off base. How much anything is worth is a completely subjective judgment. It depends entirely on the people involved. If they can't agree on that value, there's no transaction. A job is truly worth exactly as much as someone pays for it.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you accept a wages below the minimum wage, you're not making enough to support yourself in even the most basic way. This means you will require social assistance to cover your basic needs.

If you are ready, willing and able to work full time, and accept a job which won't cover your basic living expenses, you put a burden on taxpayers to support you. By what right do you sell your labour so cheaply that you need the labour of others to support you?

If you are ready, willing and able to work full time, and accept a job which won't cover your basic living expenses, you put a burden on taxpayers to support you.

If morons have priced you out of a job, they've put a burden on taxpayers to support you.

 

[LOki]

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

Spot On. Retail is probably the worst. The workers are over-worked and under-paid. They come to hate the customers over time. And ya can't blame em. They deal with insane hateful people all day and get paid like shit. I had a relative who worked in Management at Walmart for years. And oh man, the horror stories he told me. Customers defecating on floors, constantly cussing employees out, and so on.

People who work in Retail not only deserve more money, they also deserve medals. Working with the Public is horrific. You never know what kind of deranged hateful loon you're gonna run into. So you really did nail it. But don't waste too much time debating the angry greedy white Republican dudes. Their all about, "If we could just pay workers shittier wages, all of the world's problems would disappear immediately." It's always the workers' fault in Angry Greedy White Republican Dude World.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Already had that discussion.

You did not answer the questions at all. Never happened.

You angry greedy white Republican dudes don't have morals.

Entirely baseless accusations. Made up of nothing. A delusion.

That's why there's a Minimum Wage in the first place.

An assertion without basis in any fact of evidence. A fairy tale. A construct of fiction.

No one is counting on you assholes to ever do the right thing.

Meaningless misdirection from the verifiable fact of reality that you are an intellectual coward who refuses to provide straightforward answers to to the following straightforward questions out of shame:

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?​

Yes, pay those evil workers even shittier wages. That'll solve all the problems in the world. Is that really gonna be the Angry Greedy White Republican Dude Platform for 2016? Good luck with that. Democrats in a Landslide.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU (or YOUR proxy) deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

 

[paulitician]

Spot On. Retail is probably the worst. The workers are over-worked and under-paid. They come to hate the customers over time. And ya can't blame em. They deal with insane hateful people all day and get paid like shit. I had a relative who worked in Management at Walmart for years. And oh man, the horror stories he told me. Customers defecating on floors, constantly cussing employees out, and so on.

People who work in Retail not only deserve more money, they also deserve medals. Working with the Public is horrific. You never know what kind of deranged hateful loon you're gonna run into. So you really did nail it. But don't waste too much time debating the angry greedy white Republican dudes. Their all about, "If we could just pay workers shittier wages, all of the world's problems would disappear immediately." It's always the workers' fault in Angry Greedy White Republican Dude World.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Already had that discussion.

You did not answer the questions at all. Never happened.

You angry greedy white Republican dudes don't have morals.

Entirely baseless accusations. Made up of nothing. A delusion.

That's why there's a Minimum Wage in the first place.

An assertion without basis in any fact of evidence. A fairy tale. A construct of fiction.

No one is counting on you assholes to ever do the right thing.

Meaningless misdirection from the verifiable fact of reality that you are an intellectual coward who refuses to provide straightforward answers to to the following straightforward questions out of shame:

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?​

Yes, pay those evil workers even shittier wages. That'll solve all the problems in the world. Is that really gonna be the Angry Greedy White Republican Dude Platform for 2016? Good luck with that. Democrats in a Landslide.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU (or YOUR proxy) deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Hey yeah, American Workers should instead go with your wonderful fat greedy white Republican dude alternative...

Pay them shittier wages, Outsource their jobs whenever possible, and replace them with Illegals for Slave Labor.

Uh huh, sounds like a real winner. Seriously, why would any sane rational American Worker vote for you idiots?

 

[LOki]

If you accept a wages below the minimum wage, you're not making enough to support yourself in even the most basic way.

So what?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

This means you will require social assistance to cover your basic needs.

Nonsense. There is NO requirement to accept ANY manner of social assistance to cover your basic needs. NONE!

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

If you are ready, willing and able to work full time, and accept a job which won't cover your basic living expenses, you put a burden on taxpayers to support you.

More nonsense. There is NO REQUIREMENT that you burden ANYONE for ANY REASON! NONE!

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

By what right do you sell your labour so cheaply that you need the labour of others to support you?

Wut?

Just answer the questions, Cupcake:

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU (or YOUR proxy) deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

 

[LOki]

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Already had that discussion.

You did not answer the questions at all. Never happened.

You angry greedy white Republican dudes don't have morals.

Entirely baseless accusations. Made up of nothing. A delusion.

That's why there's a Minimum Wage in the first place.

An assertion without basis in any fact of evidence. A fairy tale. A construct of fiction.

No one is counting on you assholes to ever do the right thing.

Meaningless misdirection from the verifiable fact of reality that you are an intellectual coward who refuses to provide straightforward answers to to the following straightforward questions out of shame:

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?​

Yes, pay those evil workers even shittier wages. That'll solve all the problems in the world. Is that really gonna be the Angry Greedy White Republican Dude Platform for 2016? Good luck with that. Democrats in a Landslide.

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU (or YOUR proxy) deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Hey yeah, American Workers should instead go with your wonderful fat greedy white Republican dude alternative...

I'm not fat, greedy, or Republican you imbecile.

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Pay them shittier wages, Outsource their jobs whenever possible, and replace them with Illegals for Slave Labor.

I have not suggested this. Those are the demonstrable consequences of a statutory minimum wage.

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

Uh huh, sounds like a real winner. Seriously, why would any sane rational American Worker vote for you idiots?

Someone who does want to work. Someone who doesn't want their wage devalued.

Why don't you just answer the questions, Cupcake?

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU (or YOUR proxy) deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?

 

[Skull Pilot]

If you accept a wages below the minimum wage, you're not making enough to support yourself in even the most basic way. This means you will require social assistance to cover your basic needs.

If you are ready, willing and able to work full time, and accept a job which won't cover your basic living expenses, you put a burden on taxpayers to support you. By what right do you sell your labour so cheaply that you need the labour of others to support you?

Who says you only have to have one job?

I worked shit jobs for MW when I was young and unskilled and I managed to keep a roof over my head, a car on the road and food in the fridge. I simply worked as many hours as I needed to at the rate my labor was worth to make enough to pay my bills. Sometimes that meant 2 or 3 jobs and 60 plus hours a week but I did it and never needed government assistance.

Why can't you?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

Yep.

And the employer paid for/invested in that technology in order to keep up with the competition.

.

and the employer got a tax write off for it....and was able to depreciate their investment on a quicker basis with new tax rules to help them pay for it....

You don't think payroll and all its related expenses are tax write offs?

 

[LOki]

It is now clear that Dragonlady, Care4all, and paulitician are intellectual cowards of the very first order.

No one can argue that I have failed to give them AMPLE OPPORTUNITY to answer straight forward questions in a straightforward manner.

These questions are:

Upon what moral authority do YOU (or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?​

They cannot answer these questions without revealing the disingenuous argument they make for a statutory minimum wage.

The fact of the matter is, they have NO MORAL AUTHORITY to decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth. NONE.

For an employment arrangement to be morally valid, the employer and the employee must agree upon what the prospective work is worth.

They have NO business involving themselves in the employment arrangements made between two consenting adults.

And this illuminates upon why they avoid the second question.

Their objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth, is that they can have NO SAY in that decision. NONE!

And that is what really irks them.

For all their public hand-wringing, they have ZERO CONCERN for American workers, whether or not they have sufficient food, shelter, clothing, etc... They do not actually care about any of that.

If they did, they would not be proponents for statutory minimum wage.

This false concern serves only as an appeal to emotion. To convince by manipulating emotions where they have no valid argument to offer.

What they are concerned with--and this is ALL that they are concerned with--it telling other people what to do and think. That's it in it's ENTIRETY.

They are fat greedy aristocrat dudes whose SOLE MOTIVATION is to lord it over all those they have declared "inferior." Their actual end-game is forcing others to do their bidding; to bend others to the whim of their authoritarian will; their final purpose is the true enslavement of their fellow human beings.

 

[natstew]

An interesting read:

Carter raises minimum wage Jan. 1 1981 - Andrew Glass - POLITICO.com