Minimum Wage Increase: They Never Talks About the SALES

[dblack]

We have legal immigration that affects lower end wages.

We have illegal immigrants, in the millions, that affects lower end wages.

We have an over supply of lower end workers, because of the recession we went through and many slightly better paying jobs were eliminated, or the business owners rehired people at minimum wage to fill the jobs...

We have the Affordable Care Act that affects this as well...

and we have Trade Policy over the decades that also has moved higher skilled jobs overseas, leaving these individuals in the market place looking for jobs...

and we have Corporate tax policy that also affects this.....

I am CERTAIN if I had a few more minutes I could list a bunch of other things....

Simply eliminating the minimum wage, or never raising it again, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point....and doing such at this point when so many other policies get in the way of the "market" to work freely have to be addressed ALL AT ONCE if we truly think this 'change' is needed.

IT IS NOT simply, If I want to accept a wage lower than minimum wage.....NO ONE WANTS to do this when minimum wage is so low already, BUT THEY WILL out of desperation....that's immoral to put that upon the desperate.

Agreed. The minimum wage is utterly inconsequential. It's a ruse to sell people corporatism, and that's about it.

 

[LOki]

We have legal immigration that affects lower end wages.

We have illegal immigrants, in the millions, that affects lower end wages.

We have an over supply of lower end workers, because of the recession we went through and many slightly better paying jobs were eliminated, or the business owners rehired people at minimum wage to fill the jobs...

We have the Affordable Care Act that affects this as well...

and we have Trade Policy over the decades that also has moved higher skilled jobs overseas, leaving these individuals in the market place looking for jobs...

and we have Corporate tax policy that also affects this.....

I am CERTAIN if I had a few more minutes I could list a bunch of other things....

Simply eliminating the minimum wage, or never raising it again, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point....and doing such at this point when so many other policies get in the way of the "market" to work freely have to be addressed ALL AT ONCE if we truly think this 'change' is needed.

IT IS NOT simply, If I want to accept a wage lower than minimum wage.....NO ONE WANTS to do this when minimum wage is so low already, BUT THEY WILL out of desperation....that's immoral to put that upon the desperate.

you want to get paid less for babysitting or cleaning a neighbor's house, or mowing his lawn, then go right ahead....

You submit nothing but red-herrings to avoid answering the following questions posed to you repeatedly:

"If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) deny me that employment?"

"Upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?"

"Why do you object to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?"

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If an employer can not pay his full time workers, what it takes for them to survive after the full time workers put in a full week of working them, THEN this is the EMPLOYER'S problem.

Why is it? Be specific..

This one really is fascinating, and very telling. Outside of the MW discussion, this opinion opens up a Pandora's Box of issues, and illustrates how the Illiberal Left shifts responsibility away from the individual.

It's also at the heart of the "you didn't build that, you didn't earn that" foundation they have now laid. It's no longer the responsibility of the individual to simply take care of themselves and their family, it's the responsibility of the person who employs them. On top of everything else the employer has to do. This is why they minimize the employer's role in the very existence of the business.

It doesn't even occur to these people for a moment that an employer will have to (a) take people off of full-time status, and (b) not hire as many full time workers, because they have no understanding of business economics or business psychology. It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

Then, if the person who employs them can't do it, the taxpayer has to. It's a great circular argument, completely letting the individual off the hook and putting the onus on "someone else". And that someone else is going to be American business. Get used to it.

.

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

We have legal immigration that affects lower end wages.

We have illegal immigrants, in the millions, that affects lower end wages.

We have an over supply of lower end workers, because of the recession we went through and many slightly better paying jobs were eliminated, or the business owners rehired people at minimum wage to fill the jobs...

We have the Affordable Care Act that affects this as well...

and we have Trade Policy over the decades that also has moved higher skilled jobs overseas, leaving these individuals in the market place looking for jobs...

and we have Corporate tax policy that also affects this.....

I am CERTAIN if I had a few more minutes I could list a bunch of other things....

Simply eliminating the minimum wage, or never raising it again, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point....and doing such at this point when so many other policies get in the way of the "market" to work freely have to be addressed ALL AT ONCE if we truly think this 'change' is needed.

IT IS NOT simply, If I want to accept a wage lower than minimum wage.....NO ONE WANTS to do this when minimum wage is so low already, BUT THEY WILL out of desperation....that's immoral to put that upon the desperate.

you want to get paid less for babysitting or cleaning a neighbor's house, or mowing his lawn, then go right ahead....

We have illegal immigrants, in the millions, that affects lower end wages.

Deport enough illegal ALIENS and wages for low skilled Americans will rise.

Simply eliminating the minimum wage, or never raising it again, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point

Simply raising the minimum wage, to whatever level you FEEL is fair, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point

 

[Dragonlady]

If an employer can not pay his full time workers, what it takes for them to survive after the full time workers put in a full week of working them, THEN this is the EMPLOYER'S problem.

Why is it? Be specific..

This one really is fascinating, and very telling. Outside of the MW discussion, this opinion opens up a Pandora's Box of issues, and illustrates how the Illiberal Left shifts responsibility away from the individual.

It's also at the heart of the "you didn't build that, you didn't earn that" foundation they have now laid. It's no longer the responsibility of the individual to simply take care of themselves and their family, it's the responsibility of the person who employs them. On top of everything else the employer has to do. This is why they minimize the employer's role in the very existence of the business.

It doesn't even occur to these people for a moment that an employer will have to (a) take people off of full-time status, and (b) not hire as many full time workers, because they have no understanding of business economics or business psychology. It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

Then, if the person who employs them can't do it, the taxpayer has to. It's a great circular argument, completely letting the individual off the hook and putting the onus on "someone else". And that someone else is going to be American business. Get used to it.

.

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

Individual burger flipping has gone up 87%? How about that! I had no idea.

 

[dblack]

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

How about if was based on the national debt? Then the poor'd make a shitload!

Sadly, wages are based on how much the labor is worth. Damn the bad luck.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87%

Why would you confuse total workforce productivity with that of the minimum wage workforce?

How much more productive is the guy sweeping the floors compared to 1980?
What about the guy dropping the basket of fries into the hot oil?
The girl at the register who can't make change unless the register does the math?

 

[LOki]

Why is it? Be specific..

This one really is fascinating, and very telling. Outside of the MW discussion, this opinion opens up a Pandora's Box of issues, and illustrates how the Illiberal Left shifts responsibility away from the individual.

It's also at the heart of the "you didn't build that, you didn't earn that" foundation they have now laid. It's no longer the responsibility of the individual to simply take care of themselves and their family, it's the responsibility of the person who employs them. On top of everything else the employer has to do. This is why they minimize the employer's role in the very existence of the business.

It doesn't even occur to these people for a moment that an employer will have to (a) take people off of full-time status, and (b) not hire as many full time workers, because they have no understanding of business economics or business psychology. It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

Then, if the person who employs them can't do it, the taxpayer has to. It's a great circular argument, completely letting the individual off the hook and putting the onus on "someone else". And that someone else is going to be American business. Get used to it.

.

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

"If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy)deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) deny me that employment?"

"Upon what moral authority do YOU (and/or YOUR proxy) decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?"

"Why do you object to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?"

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah this is worth 15 an hour

He looks like a teen, and guess what, you can pay him $4.65 an hour for 3 months and if you don't think he will be worth the full minimum wage, you can fire him....ahhhh, freedom of choice is wonderful!

That should be true, but it's not. First, most state don't allow the 'lower-than-minimum' wage. Second, most people don't even know the new-hire wage exists.

If all the other companies in the entire area are offering $7.25/hr, because they don't know the $4.65/hr intro wage exists, then how are you going to attract workers at $4.65, when everyone else is offer the starting wage at $7.25?

Answer: You can't.

Third, it's a lawsuit risk. You hire someone at the $4.65, and managers don't review payroll every week, or even every month. They forget little bobby is still at $4.65 after 4 months, and suddenly they have a legal action on their hands. That's not worth it.

 

[Andylusion]

We have legal immigration that affects lower end wages.

We have illegal immigrants, in the millions, that affects lower end wages.

We have an over supply of lower end workers, because of the recession we went through and many slightly better paying jobs were eliminated, or the business owners rehired people at minimum wage to fill the jobs...

We have the Affordable Care Act that affects this as well...

and we have Trade Policy over the decades that also has moved higher skilled jobs overseas, leaving these individuals in the market place looking for jobs...

and we have Corporate tax policy that also affects this.....

I am CERTAIN if I had a few more minutes I could list a bunch of other things....

Simply eliminating the minimum wage, or never raising it again, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point....and doing such at this point when so many other policies get in the way of the "market" to work freely have to be addressed ALL AT ONCE if we truly think this 'change' is needed.

IT IS NOT simply, If I want to accept a wage lower than minimum wage.....NO ONE WANTS to do this when minimum wage is so low already, BUT THEY WILL out of desperation....that's immoral to put that upon the desperate.

you want to get paid less for babysitting or cleaning a neighbor's house, or mowing his lawn, then go right ahead....

If we have an 'over-supply' of unskilled labor, then logically we would want to make it more affordable to hire unskilled labor. That's an argument to eliminate the minimum wage.

Affordable Care Act, makes hiring unskilled labor more expensive. That's bad for those people.

The value of labor, changes over time. It goes up, and it goes down. Nothing is static.
If the value of the labor declines, because of a recession, then wages must fall. Basic economics.

Trade is inherently a benefit to everyone. No country becomes wealthy following protectionism. The reason jobs moved over seas, is not because of trade. It's because of bad policies driving out jobs in the US.

Corporate Tax policy, does indeed push jobs out of the US.

Would the "desperate" be better off, or worse off, earning zero, over earning a wage? I'd say worse off.

If we raised the minimum wage on baby sitting, or lawn mowing, or cleaning homes, fewer people would be hired to do that, and those people would earn far less, if anything.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why is it? Be specific..

This one really is fascinating, and very telling. Outside of the MW discussion, this opinion opens up a Pandora's Box of issues, and illustrates how the Illiberal Left shifts responsibility away from the individual.

It's also at the heart of the "you didn't build that, you didn't earn that" foundation they have now laid. It's no longer the responsibility of the individual to simply take care of themselves and their family, it's the responsibility of the person who employs them. On top of everything else the employer has to do. This is why they minimize the employer's role in the very existence of the business.

It doesn't even occur to these people for a moment that an employer will have to (a) take people off of full-time status, and (b) not hire as many full time workers, because they have no understanding of business economics or business psychology. It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

Then, if the person who employs them can't do it, the taxpayer has to. It's a great circular argument, completely letting the individual off the hook and putting the onus on "someone else". And that someone else is going to be American business. Get used to it.

.

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

 

[Mac1958]

This one really is fascinating, and very telling. Outside of the MW discussion, this opinion opens up a Pandora's Box of issues, and illustrates how the Illiberal Left shifts responsibility away from the individual.

It's also at the heart of the "you didn't build that, you didn't earn that" foundation they have now laid. It's no longer the responsibility of the individual to simply take care of themselves and their family, it's the responsibility of the person who employs them. On top of everything else the employer has to do. This is why they minimize the employer's role in the very existence of the business.

It doesn't even occur to these people for a moment that an employer will have to (a) take people off of full-time status, and (b) not hire as many full time workers, because they have no understanding of business economics or business psychology. It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

Then, if the person who employs them can't do it, the taxpayer has to. It's a great circular argument, completely letting the individual off the hook and putting the onus on "someone else". And that someone else is going to be American business. Get used to it.

.

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

Yep.

And the employer paid for/invested in that technology in order to keep up with the competition.

.

 

[Dragonlady]

The technology made them better is a rationalization. Their work has more value because they are more productive. Period. End of story. They should be paid more.

 

[Care4all]

This one really is fascinating, and very telling. Outside of the MW discussion, this opinion opens up a Pandora's Box of issues, and illustrates how the Illiberal Left shifts responsibility away from the individual.

It's also at the heart of the "you didn't build that, you didn't earn that" foundation they have now laid. It's no longer the responsibility of the individual to simply take care of themselves and their family, it's the responsibility of the person who employs them. On top of everything else the employer has to do. This is why they minimize the employer's role in the very existence of the business.

It doesn't even occur to these people for a moment that an employer will have to (a) take people off of full-time status, and (b) not hire as many full time workers, because they have no understanding of business economics or business psychology. It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

Then, if the person who employs them can't do it, the taxpayer has to. It's a great circular argument, completely letting the individual off the hook and putting the onus on "someone else". And that someone else is going to be American business. Get used to it.

.

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

 

[Care4all]

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

Yep.

And the employer paid for/invested in that technology in order to keep up with the competition.

.

and the employer got a tax write off for it....and was able to depreciate their investment on a quicker basis with new tax rules to help them pay for it....

 

[Care4all]

We have legal immigration that affects lower end wages.

We have illegal immigrants, in the millions, that affects lower end wages.

We have an over supply of lower end workers, because of the recession we went through and many slightly better paying jobs were eliminated, or the business owners rehired people at minimum wage to fill the jobs...

We have the Affordable Care Act that affects this as well...

and we have Trade Policy over the decades that also has moved higher skilled jobs overseas, leaving these individuals in the market place looking for jobs...

and we have Corporate tax policy that also affects this.....

I am CERTAIN if I had a few more minutes I could list a bunch of other things....

Simply eliminating the minimum wage, or never raising it again, IS NOT THE ANSWER to our problems at this point....and doing such at this point when so many other policies get in the way of the "market" to work freely have to be addressed ALL AT ONCE if we truly think this 'change' is needed.

IT IS NOT simply, If I want to accept a wage lower than minimum wage.....NO ONE WANTS to do this when minimum wage is so low already, BUT THEY WILL out of desperation....that's immoral to put that upon the desperate.

you want to get paid less for babysitting or cleaning a neighbor's house, or mowing his lawn, then go right ahead....

If we have an 'over-supply' of unskilled labor, then logically we would want to make it more affordable to hire unskilled labor. That's an argument to eliminate the minimum wage.

Affordable Care Act, makes hiring unskilled labor more expensive. That's bad for those people.

The value of labor, changes over time. It goes up, and it goes down. Nothing is static.
If the value of the labor declines, because of a recession, then wages must fall. Basic economics.

Trade is inherently a benefit to everyone. No country becomes wealthy following protectionism. The reason jobs moved over seas, is not because of trade. It's because of bad policies driving out jobs in the US.

Corporate Tax policy, does indeed push jobs out of the US.

Would the "desperate" be better off, or worse off, earning zero, over earning a wage? I'd say worse off.

If we raised the minimum wage on baby sitting, or lawn mowing, or cleaning homes, fewer people would be hired to do that, and those people would earn far less, if anything.

here's the thing.....they are not Unskilled, I know it makes us with higher positions in life feel better when we say these are just unskilled workers.....but that's simply our own lie to make us justify unliveable wages....

They are skilled workers, in what they are needed for....and you couldn't pay me enough to do what some of these min wage workers do.....especially the "care workers" who clean up your grand mother's piss and poop by lifting their bodies, spoon feeding them while not choking them, change their bed sheets, lifting them....and all with a smile and a min wage....

And no way in hell would I want to go back to selling shoes on the sales floor for 8 hours in stilettos, back and forth to the Stockroom to get them their shoes, rerun the shoes they chose not to buy back in to the "wall" in the proper place, organizing the stock, shifting the stock, tightening down the stock in numerical order, unloading new shipments, running them in the proper place in the "Wall", replacing samples on the floor that were sold, dusting and cleaning the sales floor, rearranging the sales floor stock to new schematics.... I can go on and on..... but the bottom line..... I was exhausted and my feet were "barking" at the end of each day.....

That's why I had to get a promotion....My body could not take it any longer and I was a mere teenager....

Every job takes skill and labor...even a janitors job develops skill in what they do......

There is an over supply of workers needing a job, who are over skilled, no fault of their own...And these better workers ARE being hired over the New teen trying to enter the market.... lowering the min wage doesn't put more min wage workers to work.... it would take jobs of those more skilled away....a swap for lower wages, at best.

 

[Care4all]

And again, please DEFINE WORTH.....What parameters are you using to define worth of a "job"? Is this one sided?

P.s. I'll be back later to try to respond to everyone else's posts....

 

[dblack]

And again, please DEFINE WORTH.....What parameters are you using to define worth of a "job"? Is this one sided?

The only parameter is how much someone else is willing to pay.

 

[LOki]

It's very simplistic, rudimentary, almost child-like thinking.

That is what liberals do best.

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old? Repeating this kind of childish rhetoric, is NOT fruitful in any manner, its simply ridiculous, especially if you are actually an adult and have to resort to this kind of childishness in a debate conversation...

Seriously....this is REAL LIFE, and we have some real life problems in this Nation, for a multitude of reasons, and NONE boil down to simply "liberal" scum and "conservative" scum....

Think, before you speak.....were you not ever taught that....?

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this, and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise. It has been and proven to show the complete opposite.... it does not stunt the growth of gdp either....

And in the past, those small businesses that needed help in raising the min wage hourly rate, were given tax breaks through 2016, for 10 years, to help cover the previous federal hike.

This is much more complicated than it seems....and simply changing from one economic theory over to another economoic theory over night, just 'ain't gonna happen'...

That's my main problem with all of you that just wants to change things right now, with no thought or reason as to how this could even be done....in the least harmful way.

PIECE MEAL is NOT the way to do this, and starting out with the minimum wage people, bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries....and we, the tax payer has to make up the difference....

Honest to goodness Todd, WHAT ARE YOU, some 5 yr old?

That'd be a pretty bright 5 year old that recognized the simplistic thinking of today's liberals.

I don't agree with your or Loki or Andy's theory on this

You mean the theory that if you raise the cost of low skilled labor, the demand for low skilled labor will fall?

and still have seen no evidence that raising the minimum wage will cause inflation or will cause unemployment to rise.

Well, if a black teenager, who is new to the workforce, and only adds $8/hour in value to an employers bottom line, is mandated to receive $10/hour, will he be more or less likely to get this first employment opportunity? How about when he's mandated to receive a "living wage" of $15 /hour?

It has been and proven to show the complete opposite....

Perhaps you should check out black teen unemployment since the minimum wage?

bringing them to even LOWER wages than they make now if the min wage law was rescinded, is simply unethical and immoral.

The same could be said about pricing them out of the job market.

And it is equally immoral to have a minimum wage law in effect, that is kept so low, Year after year, and does not go up with inflation, and that it does not allow an adult, full time worker, to simply support themselves with no luxuries

Basing wages on your feelings, instead of actual worker productivity and real world markets is more of that simplistic, liberal thinking.

I recommend the following book. The author looks at several "feel good" liberal policies and shows how liberals never look beyond the initial impact of their policy recommendations.

Applied Economics Thinking Beyond Stage One Thomas Sowell 9780465003457 Amazon.com Books

If the minimum wage was based solely on worker productivity, it would be substantially higher than $ 10.00 since worker productivity has gone up by 87% since 1980, which worker wages have only gone up by 38%.

This is, in part, why corporate profits have risen so dramatically.

Sorry but productivity has gone up because technology has allowed workers to produce more. The workers themselves have not gotten that much better

My McDonald's is the same as it was 10 years ago....no new technology. Our department stores at the mall have no new technology on the floor...in fact, they have less....they removed terminals so they have just 4 places to checkout customers now....And, they downsized employees so now the sales person is selling per hour near double of what they did 10 years ago....their productivity is through the roof....they greet and assist more customers, they sell more goods, they stock more shelves and rounders, they ring more sales, they deal with more abusive bat shot crazy customers, yet the pay is the same as 10 years ago....

WHY?

If they got paid "what the job was worth" 10 years ago, and the position is now producing double of what it once did, without new technology why hasn't the positions increased worth, translated in to more pay for the position?

If I wish to accept wages below the level YOU deem proper, upon what moral authority do YOU declare it illegal for me to accept such wages? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny someone else my services? Upon what moral authority do YOU deny me that employment?

Upon what moral authority do YOU decide for OTHERS what their work (either offered or performed) is worth?

What is your objection to simply basing a worker's wage upon what that worker's work is worth?