Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

[LordBrownTrout]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

Communism has killed hundred of millions. Yes, it does kill people. Every. Time.

Unfortunately I've already provided an example that directly refutes that.

Don't know if anyone ever let you know this but posting an emotional bullshit point on the internets, doesn't magically recreate history to make that bulllshit point real. All it does is stick your name next to it.

You provided nothing because communism is a system where the state is in complete power and has no respect for human life, hence the murder of hundreds of millions. I can't help that you are delusional and dont know history.

Would that still be true in a hypothetical, Commune of Heaven?

Is there communism in heaven? Is that what you're implying?

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

 

[Votto]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

Yes, it is an economic system that must have full control of an otherwise free economy. To achieve this, you need draconian levels of control in order to monitor every financial transaction on the face of the globe.

Once they achieve this control, all other forms of control are a piece of cake.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Communism has killed hundred of millions. Yes, it does kill people. Every. Time.

Unfortunately I've already provided an example that directly refutes that.

Don't know if anyone ever let you know this but posting an emotional bullshit point on the internets, doesn't magically recreate history to make that bulllshit point real. All it does is stick your name next to it.

You provided nothing because communism is a system where the state is in complete power and has no respect for human life, hence the murder of hundreds of millions. I can't help that you are delusional and dont know history.

More ungrounded emotional butthurt.

Again, communism is a system, one of many, of how material value is handled within a society. That society does not need to be a "state". If you want to discuss "states" then what you're talking about is government. Communism is not a government; it's an economic structure. Such a structure, whether communist or individualist, may be engaged by any societal group that handles its own wealth. It has nothing to do with how a governent OR a societal group might handle "respect for human life" or "murder". You have the onus of connecting that dot, and you can't do it.

This is actually where we started, and you still don't get it.

Every time it has been implemented, hundreds of millions have died because the center is the state and the state has no respect for life. Again, I can't help that you are ignorant and do not know history.

And once again for those who can't read, I provided an example of a communism practiced for five hundred years by a group comprised of absolute pacifists who will not take up arms for anybody and never have.

Those are two unrelated traits -- they're not pacifists because they're communists. But they're equally dedicated to both, and they have literally never murdered anybody. There's simply no event where their communism forced them to murder --- because there's no reason it would, because they're completely unrelated. And there's nothing your tantrums of ignorance can do about that.

And my example is hardly the only one -- it's simply the one I have personal experience and interaction with. Live. In person. The fact that your addiction to mass media hasn't bothered to inform you about communist societies that live in pacifism, at best because it wouldn't sell and at worst because it would undermine the ignorance they obviously have already sold you, is not my problem. It's yours.

These compounds are antithetical to any teaching of Jesus. Christian communism? Lol.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Communist:friend: That wasn't REAL Communism, try again!

How many people died during the settling of the US? No communism there.

Yes but "Whitness" was sure there.

who invented European style communism?

Some of the more benevolent aspects of Socialist ldealogy was found in the teachings of Jesus Christ more than 2000 years before
another Jew updated those teachings sans the religiosity. Capitalists have served mammon well, embracing the love of money over the love of humanity. Name an evil that plagues the earth. At the root of that evil
Is the love of money. It matters not which socio economic paradigm is put to the test.
The evils of Capitalism or the evils of Communism come about when the greed of despots and oligarchs override the health and welfare of the masses over whom they govern.

Logically, a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism in the right measure is ideal.
Apparently large swaths of the American population has accepted that reality. These
citizens are middle of the road; and, they control the flow of political power between the two major parties with their uncommitted
voting patterns. I'm one of those...regardless of any labels you try to attach to me....

Yes Jesus had taught socialism and communism. But look at what He had done to the one that did not do what the others were doing. Socialism can only work if corporations and politicians were doing their part as well as the others. But I see that Big Pharma will not create medicines just to help others rather than for a large profit. Everyone has to be willing to work for other for free, as if they are their own family. As the same way parents works for their own Children for free.But nobody doesn't want to help thy neighbor.




Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.


Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.




Matthew 20:9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

There is nothing in scriptures that said Jesus endorsed the forcible redistribution of wealth by political authorities.

 

[Correll]

Just filthy disease ridden sailors.

How many people die every day, because of our for-profit warfare-State that the right wing refuses to pay for?

Far less than are saved by the technology, wealth and medical care created by our Capitalistic ancestors.

In the words of Ronald Reagan: "Wellllll....I don't knowwwww! "

Add this shit up, will ya?

"Based on an analysis of prior research, the Johns Hopkins study estimates that more than 250,000 Americans die each year from medical errors. On the CDC's official list, that would rank just behind heart disease and cancer, which each took about 600,000 lives in 2014, and in front of respiratory disease, which caused about 150,000 deaths."
Medical Errors Are No. 3 Cause Of U.S Deaths, Researchers Say
Did Ja know that?

Yes, I did actually.


And it's still less than the lives saved by the technology, wealth and medical care created by our Capitalistic ancestors.

Well 600 thousand X 2 =1.2 million+ 250 thousand=1.45 million lives our technologies
do not save per year.
250 thousand medical error deaths annually in the USA, though, is rather startling.
International Survey: U.S. Leads in Medical Errors

What do you think you are proving with that? ARe you trying to imply that communists nations have/had no or fewer medical errors?

 

[Correll]

Incorrect. Capitalism includes respect for property rights.


What you describe is more anarchy or complete Autocratic Rule.


YOur desire to claim ALL GOVERNMENT functions or services as "socialism" is noted and dismissed.


Please to not try such dishonesty with me again.


It is an insult to my intelligence and the intelligence of everyone who reads this thread.

Not in our Constitution. It is enumerated via the socialism of the law; and specifically in our supreme law of the land.

Law is not socialism. Your attempt to claim all government as socialism is absurd and dismissed.

Yes, government is socialism; the law is the written form of socialism. You merely don't understand what socialism is. It is not capitalism.

Government is not socialism.


Try to be less dishonest.

Yes it is because it relies on the other People's money.

Taxes are not socialism either.


Does it never occur to you, that if you have to lie constantly to defend your positions, that you should change your positions?

 

[Votto]

How many people died during the settling of the US? No communism there.

Yes but "Whitness" was sure there.

who invented European style communism?

Some of the more benevolent aspects of Socialist ldealogy was found in the teachings of Jesus Christ more than 2000 years before
another Jew updated those teachings sans the religiosity. Capitalists have served mammon well, embracing the love of money over the love of humanity. Name an evil that plagues the earth. At the root of that evil
Is the love of money. It matters not which socio economic paradigm is put to the test.
The evils of Capitalism or the evils of Communism come about when the greed of despots and oligarchs override the health and welfare of the masses over whom they govern.

Logically, a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism in the right measure is ideal.
Apparently large swaths of the American population has accepted that reality. These
citizens are middle of the road; and, they control the flow of political power between the two major parties with their uncommitted
voting patterns. I'm one of those...regardless of any labels you try to attach to me....

Yes Jesus had taught socialism and communism. But look at what He had done to the one that did not do what the others were doing. Socialism can only work if corporations and politicians were doing their part as well as the others. But I see that Big Pharma will not create medicines just to help others rather than for a large profit. Everyone has to be willing to work for other for free, as if they are their own family. As the same way parents works for their own Children for free.But nobody doesn't want to help thy neighbor.




Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.


Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.




Matthew 20:9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

There is nothing in scriptures that said Jesus endorsed the forcible redistribution of wealth by political authorities.

Just like the Constitution, all they need to do is interpret the Bible to tell you what it really was trying to say all along.

Interestingly, they tend to ignore both.

 

[Correll]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

"Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. "


Sure. Less ignore history and try it. What's the worst that could happen? It turns into an oppressive totalitarian dictator ship that mass murders tens of millions of Americans in the name of Communism?


What are the odds of that?


Oh, and I LOVE that you just accept the excuse as to why it failed in other places. ANd are then ready to roll the dice with the lives and freedom of your self, your family, your friends and your fellow Americans.

 

[Tehon]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

The internal contradictions of capital accumulation constitute an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. The same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory but in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk.[1][2][3][4]

The process of economic crises[edit]
The internal contradictions of capital accumulation reveal themselves in a multi-stage process.

• Step 1- The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as "wage repression" or "wage deflation" and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
• Step 2- Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.[1] For example, we can see this principle illustrated in the fact that 88% of corporate profit growth between the dot-com bubble's peak in 2000 to the American housing bubble's peak in 2007 derived from wage deflation.[5]
• Step 3- In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or "supply" the market with more goods.[1]
• Step 4-Increasing supply, however, is increasingly problematic since "the demand" or the purchasers of goods often consist of the same population or labor pool whose wages have been repressed in step 1. In other words, by repressing wages, the corporate forces working in congress with the financial sector have also repressed the buying power of the average consumer, which prevents them from maintaining the growth in profits that was catalyzed by the deflation of wages.
• Step 5-Credit markets are pumped-up in order to supply the average consumer with more capital or buying power without increasing wages/decreasing profits. For example, mortgages and credit cards are made available to individuals or to organizations whose income does not indicate that they will be able to pay back the money they are borrowing. The proliferation of subprime mortgages throughout the American market preceding the Great Recession would be an example of this phenomenon.[1]
• Step 6-These simultaneous and interconnected trends—falling wages and rising debt—eventually manifest in a cascade of debt defaults.[1]
• Step 7-These cascading defaults eventually manifest in an institutional failure. The failure of one institution or bank has a cascading effect on other banks which are owed money by the first bank in trouble, causing a cascading failure—such as the cascading failure following the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, or Bear Stearns which led to the bailout of AIG, and catalyzed the market failures which characterized the beginning of the Great Recession.[1]
• Step 8-Assuming the economy in which the crisis began to unfold does not totally collapse, the locus of the crisis regains some competitive edge as the crisis spreads.[1]
• Step 9-This geographic relocation cascades into its own process referred to as accumulation by dispossession. The crisis relocates itself geographically, beginning all over again, while the site of its geographical origins begins taking steps towards recovery.[1]

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

The internal contradictions of capital accumulation constitute an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. The same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory but in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk.[1][2][3][4]

The process of economic crises[edit]
The internal contradictions of capital accumulation reveal themselves in a multi-stage process.

• Step 1- The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as "wage repression" or "wage deflation" and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
• Step 2- Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.[1] For example, we can see this principle illustrated in the fact that 88% of corporate profit growth between the dot-com bubble's peak in 2000 to the American housing bubble's peak in 2007 derived from wage deflation.[5]
• Step 3- In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or "supply" the market with more goods.[1]
• Step 4-Increasing supply, however, is increasingly problematic since "the demand" or the purchasers of goods often consist of the same population or labor pool whose wages have been repressed in step 1. In other words, by repressing wages, the corporate forces working in congress with the financial sector have also repressed the buying power of the average consumer, which prevents them from maintaining the growth in profits that was catalyzed by the deflation of wages.
• Step 5-Credit markets are pumped-up in order to supply the average consumer with more capital or buying power without increasing wages/decreasing profits. For example, mortgages and credit cards are made available to individuals or to organizations whose income does not indicate that they will be able to pay back the money they are borrowing. The proliferation of subprime mortgages throughout the American market preceding the Great Recession would be an example of this phenomenon.[1]
• Step 6-These simultaneous and interconnected trends—falling wages and rising debt—eventually manifest in a cascade of debt defaults.[1]
• Step 7-These cascading defaults eventually manifest in an institutional failure. The failure of one institution or bank has a cascading effect on other banks which are owed money by the first bank in trouble, causing a cascading failure—such as the cascading failure following the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, or Bear Stearns which led to the bailout of AIG, and catalyzed the market failures which characterized the beginning of the Great Recession.[1]
• Step 8-Assuming the economy in which the crisis began to unfold does not totally collapse, the locus of the crisis regains some competitive edge as the crisis spreads.[1]
• Step 9-This geographic relocation cascades into its own process referred to as accumulation by dispossession. The crisis relocates itself geographically, beginning all over again, while the site of its geographical origins begins taking steps towards recovery.[1]

I dont see how this is relevant. Corruption, deception, theft are just as entrenched into govt.

 

[Tehon]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

The internal contradictions of capital accumulation constitute an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. The same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory but in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk.[1][2][3][4]

The process of economic crises[edit]
The internal contradictions of capital accumulation reveal themselves in a multi-stage process.

• Step 1- The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as "wage repression" or "wage deflation" and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
• Step 2- Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.[1] For example, we can see this principle illustrated in the fact that 88% of corporate profit growth between the dot-com bubble's peak in 2000 to the American housing bubble's peak in 2007 derived from wage deflation.[5]
• Step 3- In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or "supply" the market with more goods.[1]
• Step 4-Increasing supply, however, is increasingly problematic since "the demand" or the purchasers of goods often consist of the same population or labor pool whose wages have been repressed in step 1. In other words, by repressing wages, the corporate forces working in congress with the financial sector have also repressed the buying power of the average consumer, which prevents them from maintaining the growth in profits that was catalyzed by the deflation of wages.
• Step 5-Credit markets are pumped-up in order to supply the average consumer with more capital or buying power without increasing wages/decreasing profits. For example, mortgages and credit cards are made available to individuals or to organizations whose income does not indicate that they will be able to pay back the money they are borrowing. The proliferation of subprime mortgages throughout the American market preceding the Great Recession would be an example of this phenomenon.[1]
• Step 6-These simultaneous and interconnected trends—falling wages and rising debt—eventually manifest in a cascade of debt defaults.[1]
• Step 7-These cascading defaults eventually manifest in an institutional failure. The failure of one institution or bank has a cascading effect on other banks which are owed money by the first bank in trouble, causing a cascading failure—such as the cascading failure following the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, or Bear Stearns which led to the bailout of AIG, and catalyzed the market failures which characterized the beginning of the Great Recession.[1]
• Step 8-Assuming the economy in which the crisis began to unfold does not totally collapse, the locus of the crisis regains some competitive edge as the crisis spreads.[1]
• Step 9-This geographic relocation cascades into its own process referred to as accumulation by dispossession. The crisis relocates itself geographically, beginning all over again, while the site of its geographical origins begins taking steps towards recovery.[1]

I dont see how this is relevant. Corruption, deception, theft are just as entrenched into govt.

So you can see the contradictions. Capital accumulation leads to social and political power.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

The internal contradictions of capital accumulation constitute an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. The same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory but in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk.[1][2][3][4]

The process of economic crises[edit]
The internal contradictions of capital accumulation reveal themselves in a multi-stage process.

• Step 1- The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as "wage repression" or "wage deflation" and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
• Step 2- Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.[1] For example, we can see this principle illustrated in the fact that 88% of corporate profit growth between the dot-com bubble's peak in 2000 to the American housing bubble's peak in 2007 derived from wage deflation.[5]
• Step 3- In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or "supply" the market with more goods.[1]
• Step 4-Increasing supply, however, is increasingly problematic since "the demand" or the purchasers of goods often consist of the same population or labor pool whose wages have been repressed in step 1. In other words, by repressing wages, the corporate forces working in congress with the financial sector have also repressed the buying power of the average consumer, which prevents them from maintaining the growth in profits that was catalyzed by the deflation of wages.
• Step 5-Credit markets are pumped-up in order to supply the average consumer with more capital or buying power without increasing wages/decreasing profits. For example, mortgages and credit cards are made available to individuals or to organizations whose income does not indicate that they will be able to pay back the money they are borrowing. The proliferation of subprime mortgages throughout the American market preceding the Great Recession would be an example of this phenomenon.[1]
• Step 6-These simultaneous and interconnected trends—falling wages and rising debt—eventually manifest in a cascade of debt defaults.[1]
• Step 7-These cascading defaults eventually manifest in an institutional failure. The failure of one institution or bank has a cascading effect on other banks which are owed money by the first bank in trouble, causing a cascading failure—such as the cascading failure following the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, or Bear Stearns which led to the bailout of AIG, and catalyzed the market failures which characterized the beginning of the Great Recession.[1]
• Step 8-Assuming the economy in which the crisis began to unfold does not totally collapse, the locus of the crisis regains some competitive edge as the crisis spreads.[1]
• Step 9-This geographic relocation cascades into its own process referred to as accumulation by dispossession. The crisis relocates itself geographically, beginning all over again, while the site of its geographical origins begins taking steps towards recovery.[1]

I dont see how this is relevant. Corruption, deception, theft are just as entrenched into govt.

So you can see the contradictions. Capital accumulation leads to social and political power.

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom. Moreso, than any other economic system. That doesnt dismiss greed, corruption, deception which unravel such institutions. That same greed and corruption is destroying the constitution.

 

[danielpalos]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

Communism has killed hundred of millions. Yes, it does kill people. Every. Time.

Unfortunately I've already provided an example that directly refutes that.

Don't know if anyone ever let you know this but posting an emotional bullshit point on the internets, doesn't magically recreate history to make that bulllshit point real. All it does is stick your name next to it.

You provided nothing because communism is a system where the state is in complete power and has no respect for human life, hence the murder of hundreds of millions. I can't help that you are delusional and dont know history.

Would that still be true in a hypothetical, Commune of Heaven?

Is there communism in heaven? Is that what you're implying?

Some religious claim to aspire to a divine Commune of Heaven.

 

[danielpalos]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

How many died during our Civil War?

 

[danielpalos]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

Yes, it is an economic system that must have full control of an otherwise free economy. To achieve this, you need draconian levels of control in order to monitor every financial transaction on the face of the globe.

Once they achieve this control, all other forms of control are a piece of cake.

The Spartans claimed something similar; coincidence or conspiracy.

 

[danielpalos]

Unfortunately I've already provided an example that directly refutes that.

Don't know if anyone ever let you know this but posting an emotional bullshit point on the internets, doesn't magically recreate history to make that bulllshit point real. All it does is stick your name next to it.

You provided nothing because communism is a system where the state is in complete power and has no respect for human life, hence the murder of hundreds of millions. I can't help that you are delusional and dont know history.

More ungrounded emotional butthurt.

Again, communism is a system, one of many, of how material value is handled within a society. That society does not need to be a "state". If you want to discuss "states" then what you're talking about is government. Communism is not a government; it's an economic structure. Such a structure, whether communist or individualist, may be engaged by any societal group that handles its own wealth. It has nothing to do with how a governent OR a societal group might handle "respect for human life" or "murder". You have the onus of connecting that dot, and you can't do it.

This is actually where we started, and you still don't get it.

Every time it has been implemented, hundreds of millions have died because the center is the state and the state has no respect for life. Again, I can't help that you are ignorant and do not know history.

And once again for those who can't read, I provided an example of a communism practiced for five hundred years by a group comprised of absolute pacifists who will not take up arms for anybody and never have.

Those are two unrelated traits -- they're not pacifists because they're communists. But they're equally dedicated to both, and they have literally never murdered anybody. There's simply no event where their communism forced them to murder --- because there's no reason it would, because they're completely unrelated. And there's nothing your tantrums of ignorance can do about that.

And my example is hardly the only one -- it's simply the one I have personal experience and interaction with. Live. In person. The fact that your addiction to mass media hasn't bothered to inform you about communist societies that live in pacifism, at best because it wouldn't sell and at worst because it would undermine the ignorance they obviously have already sold you, is not my problem. It's yours.

These compounds are antithetical to any teaching of Jesus. Christian communism? Lol.

Only through Him, may we attain admittance to a divine Commune of Heaven.

 

[danielpalos]

How many people died during the settling of the US? No communism there.

Yes but "Whitness" was sure there.

who invented European style communism?

Some of the more benevolent aspects of Socialist ldealogy was found in the teachings of Jesus Christ more than 2000 years before
another Jew updated those teachings sans the religiosity. Capitalists have served mammon well, embracing the love of money over the love of humanity. Name an evil that plagues the earth. At the root of that evil
Is the love of money. It matters not which socio economic paradigm is put to the test.
The evils of Capitalism or the evils of Communism come about when the greed of despots and oligarchs override the health and welfare of the masses over whom they govern.

Logically, a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism in the right measure is ideal.
Apparently large swaths of the American population has accepted that reality. These
citizens are middle of the road; and, they control the flow of political power between the two major parties with their uncommitted
voting patterns. I'm one of those...regardless of any labels you try to attach to me....

Yes Jesus had taught socialism and communism. But look at what He had done to the one that did not do what the others were doing. Socialism can only work if corporations and politicians were doing their part as well as the others. But I see that Big Pharma will not create medicines just to help others rather than for a large profit. Everyone has to be willing to work for other for free, as if they are their own family. As the same way parents works for their own Children for free.But nobody doesn't want to help thy neighbor.




Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.


Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.




Matthew 20:9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

There is nothing in scriptures that said Jesus endorsed the forcible redistribution of wealth by political authorities.

Acts 11:29 From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

 

[danielpalos]

Not in our Constitution. It is enumerated via the socialism of the law; and specifically in our supreme law of the land.

Law is not socialism. Your attempt to claim all government as socialism is absurd and dismissed.

Yes, government is socialism; the law is the written form of socialism. You merely don't understand what socialism is. It is not capitalism.

Government is not socialism.


Try to be less dishonest.

Yes it is because it relies on the other People's money.

Taxes are not socialism either.


Does it never occur to you, that if you have to lie constantly to defend your positions, that you should change your positions?

does it ever occur to You, that simply being clueless and Causeless is as full of worth, as having, nothing but repeal in the non-porn sector?

The social Power to Tax, is delegated to our federal Congress, for the Union.

 

[danielpalos]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

The internal contradictions of capital accumulation constitute an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. The same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory but in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk.[1][2][3][4]

The process of economic crises[edit]
The internal contradictions of capital accumulation reveal themselves in a multi-stage process.

• Step 1- The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as "wage repression" or "wage deflation" and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
• Step 2- Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.[1] For example, we can see this principle illustrated in the fact that 88% of corporate profit growth between the dot-com bubble's peak in 2000 to the American housing bubble's peak in 2007 derived from wage deflation.[5]
• Step 3- In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or "supply" the market with more goods.[1]
• Step 4-Increasing supply, however, is increasingly problematic since "the demand" or the purchasers of goods often consist of the same population or labor pool whose wages have been repressed in step 1. In other words, by repressing wages, the corporate forces working in congress with the financial sector have also repressed the buying power of the average consumer, which prevents them from maintaining the growth in profits that was catalyzed by the deflation of wages.
• Step 5-Credit markets are pumped-up in order to supply the average consumer with more capital or buying power without increasing wages/decreasing profits. For example, mortgages and credit cards are made available to individuals or to organizations whose income does not indicate that they will be able to pay back the money they are borrowing. The proliferation of subprime mortgages throughout the American market preceding the Great Recession would be an example of this phenomenon.[1]
• Step 6-These simultaneous and interconnected trends—falling wages and rising debt—eventually manifest in a cascade of debt defaults.[1]
• Step 7-These cascading defaults eventually manifest in an institutional failure. The failure of one institution or bank has a cascading effect on other banks which are owed money by the first bank in trouble, causing a cascading failure—such as the cascading failure following the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, or Bear Stearns which led to the bailout of AIG, and catalyzed the market failures which characterized the beginning of the Great Recession.[1]
• Step 8-Assuming the economy in which the crisis began to unfold does not totally collapse, the locus of the crisis regains some competitive edge as the crisis spreads.[1]
• Step 9-This geographic relocation cascades into its own process referred to as accumulation by dispossession. The crisis relocates itself geographically, beginning all over again, while the site of its geographical origins begins taking steps towards recovery.[1]

I dont see how this is relevant. Corruption, deception, theft are just as entrenched into govt.

Socialism requires social morals for free even under any form of Capitalism, to work effectively.