Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

[LordBrownTrout]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

How many died during our Civil War?

600k +-. Fed vs states.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

The internal contradictions of capital accumulation constitute an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. The same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory but in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk.[1][2][3][4]

The process of economic crises[edit]
The internal contradictions of capital accumulation reveal themselves in a multi-stage process.

• Step 1- The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as "wage repression" or "wage deflation" and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
• Step 2- Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.[1] For example, we can see this principle illustrated in the fact that 88% of corporate profit growth between the dot-com bubble's peak in 2000 to the American housing bubble's peak in 2007 derived from wage deflation.[5]
• Step 3- In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or "supply" the market with more goods.[1]
• Step 4-Increasing supply, however, is increasingly problematic since "the demand" or the purchasers of goods often consist of the same population or labor pool whose wages have been repressed in step 1. In other words, by repressing wages, the corporate forces working in congress with the financial sector have also repressed the buying power of the average consumer, which prevents them from maintaining the growth in profits that was catalyzed by the deflation of wages.
• Step 5-Credit markets are pumped-up in order to supply the average consumer with more capital or buying power without increasing wages/decreasing profits. For example, mortgages and credit cards are made available to individuals or to organizations whose income does not indicate that they will be able to pay back the money they are borrowing. The proliferation of subprime mortgages throughout the American market preceding the Great Recession would be an example of this phenomenon.[1]
• Step 6-These simultaneous and interconnected trends—falling wages and rising debt—eventually manifest in a cascade of debt defaults.[1]
• Step 7-These cascading defaults eventually manifest in an institutional failure. The failure of one institution or bank has a cascading effect on other banks which are owed money by the first bank in trouble, causing a cascading failure—such as the cascading failure following the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, or Bear Stearns which led to the bailout of AIG, and catalyzed the market failures which characterized the beginning of the Great Recession.[1]
• Step 8-Assuming the economy in which the crisis began to unfold does not totally collapse, the locus of the crisis regains some competitive edge as the crisis spreads.[1]
• Step 9-This geographic relocation cascades into its own process referred to as accumulation by dispossession. The crisis relocates itself geographically, beginning all over again, while the site of its geographical origins begins taking steps towards recovery.[1]

I dont see how this is relevant. Corruption, deception, theft are just as entrenched into govt.

Socialism requires social morals for free even under any form of Capitalism, to work effectively.

And when these social morals change, as they always do, the system breaks down. This is why it is imperative that the state have very little control. The state does nothing to earn fiat therefore it has no respect whatsoever from whom it takes this fiat away. We see this through trillions in waste in our current state.

 

[Tehon]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

 

[danielpalos]

Me: Communism has killed 94 million people...

"Communism" is an economic system. It doesn't "kill" anybody.

Armies kill people. Guns and bombs and rockets kill people. Murderers kill people. Economic systems preeeeety much provide a framework for how wealth moves around. That's all they do.

That is true. Communism doesn't kill anyone, people do. Just because Communism hasn't worked out in other countries that tried it doesn't mean it won't work out in America. The reason Communism has failed in other countries is because they first didn't have a strong Capitalism society before they implemented Communism, Carl Marx said you had to have Capitalism first before Communism would ever work.

I learned all this by listening on Yale Online Courses to a Sociology professor who was talking about Carl Marx. He made it clear that Carl Marx only thought Communism would work if FIRST there was a Capitalism system in place for a long time. Carl Marx thought Capitalism was a good thing up to a certain point and helped a country grow, but after the wealth inequality got to a certain point then it was time to replace Capitalism with a Socialism or Communism type society. I think America is at that point, if we don't go to the extreme of Communism then at least try to implement a lot more Socialism into our current system.

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

How many died during our Civil War?

600k +-. Fed vs states.

The ratio would still be similar if extrapolated into modern population datasets.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

 

[danielpalos]

Marx thought communism was a historical inevitability. That capitalism would eventually become a detriment to society and this would lead to a mass movement that would overthrow the capitalist system in favor of a socialist system. And this socialist system would evolve naturally into a communist system.

To your point, Marx's philosophy was that a new socioeconomic system of production would only take shape once the productive forces of the previous system had exhausted itself. Contradictions in the capitalist system will continue to grow until they cannot be ignored by society. At which point a movement will develop that will seek to move us to a new socioeconomic reality.

What contradictions because we do know that under communism rule, hundreds of millions have been murdered.

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

The internal contradictions of capital accumulation constitute an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. The same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory but in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk.[1][2][3][4]

The process of economic crises[edit]
The internal contradictions of capital accumulation reveal themselves in a multi-stage process.

• Step 1- The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as "wage repression" or "wage deflation" and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
• Step 2- Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.[1] For example, we can see this principle illustrated in the fact that 88% of corporate profit growth between the dot-com bubble's peak in 2000 to the American housing bubble's peak in 2007 derived from wage deflation.[5]
• Step 3- In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or "supply" the market with more goods.[1]
• Step 4-Increasing supply, however, is increasingly problematic since "the demand" or the purchasers of goods often consist of the same population or labor pool whose wages have been repressed in step 1. In other words, by repressing wages, the corporate forces working in congress with the financial sector have also repressed the buying power of the average consumer, which prevents them from maintaining the growth in profits that was catalyzed by the deflation of wages.
• Step 5-Credit markets are pumped-up in order to supply the average consumer with more capital or buying power without increasing wages/decreasing profits. For example, mortgages and credit cards are made available to individuals or to organizations whose income does not indicate that they will be able to pay back the money they are borrowing. The proliferation of subprime mortgages throughout the American market preceding the Great Recession would be an example of this phenomenon.[1]
• Step 6-These simultaneous and interconnected trends—falling wages and rising debt—eventually manifest in a cascade of debt defaults.[1]
• Step 7-These cascading defaults eventually manifest in an institutional failure. The failure of one institution or bank has a cascading effect on other banks which are owed money by the first bank in trouble, causing a cascading failure—such as the cascading failure following the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers, or Bear Stearns which led to the bailout of AIG, and catalyzed the market failures which characterized the beginning of the Great Recession.[1]
• Step 8-Assuming the economy in which the crisis began to unfold does not totally collapse, the locus of the crisis regains some competitive edge as the crisis spreads.[1]
• Step 9-This geographic relocation cascades into its own process referred to as accumulation by dispossession. The crisis relocates itself geographically, beginning all over again, while the site of its geographical origins begins taking steps towards recovery.[1]

I dont see how this is relevant. Corruption, deception, theft are just as entrenched into govt.

Socialism requires social morals for free even under any form of Capitalism, to work effectively.

And when these social morals change, as they always do, the system breaks down. This is why it is imperative that the state have very little control. The state does nothing to earn fiat therefore it has no respect whatsoever from whom it takes this fiat away. We see this through trillions in waste in our current state.

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.--The Federalist Number Fifty-One

 

[Tehon]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

 

[Correll]

Law is not socialism. Your attempt to claim all government as socialism is absurd and dismissed.

Yes, government is socialism; the law is the written form of socialism. You merely don't understand what socialism is. It is not capitalism.

Government is not socialism.


Try to be less dishonest.

Yes it is because it relies on the other People's money.

Taxes are not socialism either.


Does it never occur to you, that if you have to lie constantly to defend your positions, that you should change your positions?

does it ever occur to You, that simply being clueless and Causeless is as full of worth, as having, nothing but repeal in the non-porn sector?

The social Power to Tax, is delegated to our federal Congress, for the Union.

No, you are the one who is being dishonest and obtuse.


Your desire to claim Tax as a part of SOcialism is just you tying to be dishonest so that you can support and defend socialism.


That you can know that you have to lie to defend your position, because the truth is not on your side,


yet you can't make the obvious realization that that means you are wrong,


is incredible to me.

 

[Tehon]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

You're an imbecile.

 

[danielpalos]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

Only the clueless and the Causeless, say that.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

You're an imbecile.

I'm right.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

These aren't contradictions. Capitalism allows individual freedom.

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

Only the clueless and the Causeless, say that.

Does not say one word about collectivism. Only the foolish would insinuate that it does.

 

[danielpalos]

Yes, government is socialism; the law is the written form of socialism. You merely don't understand what socialism is. It is not capitalism.

Government is not socialism.


Try to be less dishonest.

Yes it is because it relies on the other People's money.

Taxes are not socialism either.


Does it never occur to you, that if you have to lie constantly to defend your positions, that you should change your positions?

does it ever occur to You, that simply being clueless and Causeless is as full of worth, as having, nothing but repeal in the non-porn sector?

The social Power to Tax, is delegated to our federal Congress, for the Union.

No, you are the one who is being dishonest and obtuse.


Your desire to claim Tax as a part of SOcialism is just you tying to be dishonest so that you can support and defend socialism.


That you can know that you have to lie to defend your position, because the truth is not on your side,


yet you can't make the obvious realization that that means you are wrong,


is incredible to me.

I am on the left. I never take the right wing seriously unless it is one of their, twice a day moments. This is not one of them.

The social Power to Tax, is delegated to our federal Congress, for the Union.

Capitalism relies on voluntary social transactions. A free market has no Government.

Simply having a Central Bank, means we have a command economy.

 

[danielpalos]

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

Only the clueless and the Causeless, say that.

Does not say one word about collectivism. Only the foolish would insinuate that it does.

Well regulated Militia, is a Collective. There is no such Thing as a Miltia of One. That is merely regular propaganda.

 

[Tehon]

The contradiction resides in the fact that we are a collective.

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

You're an imbecile.

I'm right.

I didn't say collectivism idiot. I said collective.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

Only the clueless and the Causeless, say that.

Does not say one word about collectivism. Only the foolish would insinuate that it does.

Well regulated Militia, is a Collective. There is no such Thing as a Miltia of One. That is merely regular propaganda.

This has nothing to do with economic systems. Now, you're getting all schizophrenic.

 

[Correll]

Government is not socialism.


Try to be less dishonest.

Yes it is because it relies on the other People's money.

Taxes are not socialism either.


Does it never occur to you, that if you have to lie constantly to defend your positions, that you should change your positions?

does it ever occur to You, that simply being clueless and Causeless is as full of worth, as having, nothing but repeal in the non-porn sector?

The social Power to Tax, is delegated to our federal Congress, for the Union.

No, you are the one who is being dishonest and obtuse.


Your desire to claim Tax as a part of SOcialism is just you tying to be dishonest so that you can support and defend socialism.


That you can know that you have to lie to defend your position, because the truth is not on your side,


yet you can't make the obvious realization that that means you are wrong,


is incredible to me.

I am on the left. I never take the right wing seriously unless it is one of their, twice a day moments. This is not one of them.

The social Power to Tax, is delegated to our federal Congress, for the Union.

Capitalism relies on voluntary social transactions. A free market has no Government.

Simply having a Central Bank, means we have a command economy.

Your dishonest nonsense is noted and dismissed.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

No because everyone is different with different skill sets, ambitions, goals.

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

You're an imbecile.

I'm right.

I didn't say collectivism idiot. I said collective.

The collectivism is what you want implemented. It is the result of the state applying there control on the collective. You're not real bright.

 

[danielpalos]

Yes, it is a fact. We even named it, we call our collective society the United States of America.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Doesn't say anything about collectivism in there.

Only the clueless and the Causeless, say that.

Does not say one word about collectivism. Only the foolish would insinuate that it does.

Well regulated Militia, is a Collective. There is no such Thing as a Miltia of One. That is merely regular propaganda.

This has nothing to do with economic systems. Now, you're getting all schizophrenic.

Context is everything. The US must have a republican form of Government to "bailout capitalism".