"Love Your Enemy." "Turn The Other Cheek." What Did J.C. Mean?

[Chips Rafferty]

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself" refers back to Deuteronomy 19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD." The apostle Paul comments on this in Romans 12:19+20, saying "Do no take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' (Deut. 32:35a) says the Lord. On the contrary: 'If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.' (Prov. 25:21+22)"

So, in order to follow God's commandments, we must act in a loving manner to others, treating them as we would like to be treated, considering them above ourselves and their needs above our own needs. As God loves all people, righteous as well as unrighteous, so should those who call themselves God's children. When we treat angry, hateful people with love, we bring guilt upon them with their own conscience, giving God some leverage to get them to consider their sin and come to repentance.

Human nature tells us to love only those who love us or whom we can get something from and to hate those who harm us. Jesus says to love first and always, regardless. In Matt. 38+39 he says, "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you , Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other also." This and the following is saying that if you are persecuted and/or attacked that one should not take the law into one's own hands. A child of God is to extend justice and mercy to their enemies in the hope that the matter will be resolved as the body and possessions are nothing compared to matters of the heart. The appeal should be to higher authorities if the matter cannot be resolved.

If Jesus and his Dad wanted everyone saved, why are we still wondering what Jesus meant at this late hour? When, according to the world’s finest, (i.e. American ) theologians, Jesus is already galloping through the clouds on Trigger to rapture his beleaguered but righteous WASP widgets up to his miserable, abstemious and hermaphroditic Heaven?

Why does THE most Christian nation on earth, America, resemble the Shoe-Gourd scene in the Life of Brian, with a plethora of doctrinally disparate “Christian” churches, if Jesus communicated his Godspiel in jargon even a cretin could comprehend?

Clearly the Book of Revelation is right. Only 144,000 virgin Jewish MEN are required by Jesus and his faggot Dad in their obviously Homo Hereafter!

 

[manu1959]

If Jesus and his Dad wanted everyone saved, why are we still wondering what Jesus meant at this late hour? When, according to the world’s finest, (i.e. American ) theologians, Jesus is already galloping through the clouds on Trigger to rapture his beleaguered but righteous WASP widgets up to his miserable, abstemious and hermaphroditic Heaven?

Why does THE most Christian nation on earth, America, resemble the Shoe-Gourd scene in the Life of Brian, with a plethora of doctrinally disparate “Christian” churches, if Jesus communicated his Godspiel in jargon even a cretin could comprehend?

Clearly the Book of Revelation is right. Only 144,000 virgin Jewish MEN are required by Jesus and his faggot Dad in their obviously Homo Hereafter!

how long is a god hour?

how do you know heaven is not your favourite pub?

the most christian nation on earth is the vatican.

the last one is best left to you and your therapist....

 

[Chips Rafferty]

how long is a god hour?

You mean the Babble IS meant to be interpreted symbolically?!!

how do you know heaven is not your favourite pub?

Because some maniacal American “Christian,” maybe Howard Hyde Russell, said so!

the most christian nation on earth is the vatican.

In Fundiemerican eyes, the evil Vatican is not "Christian", which is why I enclosed Christian in commas.

the last one is best left to you and your therapist....

DENYING HAOLI STRICTURE IS BLASPHEMY!!

Hey, you're almost as good a straightman as Lou Costello, Kai Manu!

 

[MassageGirl]

Now, now, Chips... Let me help. (settle down.. Take a bayer, lol)

Hey a few things, first- 1 I can tell that you dont actually study or read the bible, and that most of what your angry words said are actually directed at false teachers. GOOD. Thats wonderful. It really is.
2- I can see that youre here in the religion forum for a purpose, and am thinking that might have something to do with wanting to learn something of truth about God, at least something believeable.
3- There is no "trinity"- trinitarian belief is polytheism, and is not a part of Christian doctrine. There is also no "rapture", either. There are a lot of things about God that would surprise most people, when they study it- like that Genesis is totally supportive of evolution, or that "having the fruit depart from the womb" early, is better than having more kids than you want, especially since life begins when we are given our first breath of air.

Here, check these websites out, Chips, do some keyword searches in bible gateway- some words that will help you see what the false teachers dont want you to see: "breath" "life", "breath of life", "fire" "wind" "hell" "hades", etc. Oh and go ahead and search for "trinity" or "rapture", lol.. they arent in there.
http://www.biblegateway.com

For more info, this website is really really good on debunking the false teachings, and helping people to find faith through truth.

http://enderfusion.com/Steve/?cat=31

 

[Shogun]

hehehe..


yea... thankfully, most christians agree that the belief in a trinity is polytheism!

hehehehehehehe...

christian denominations declaring their opinion on dogma and THE truth cracks me up.

 

[jillian]

hehehe..


yea... thankfully, most christians agree that the belief in a trinity is polytheism!

hehehehehehehe...

christian denominations declaring their opinion on dogma and THE truth cracks me up.

What interests me is that instead of every denomination understanding that they're one of many, each one thinks they're the only ones going to paradise.

Ah well...

 

[Shogun]

What interests me is that instead of every denomination understanding that they're one of many, each one thinks they're the only ones going to paradise.

Ah well...

i know.. from what i've experienced, having friends and fam accross the spectrum, they all have pretty strong opinions about the exclusive truth to their flavour of christianity. Opinions of other versions always, ALWAYS being that they are lesser or wrong. the whole Mormon aspect of Mitt Romney is a timely example of this.

If G-hizzle is observing this, and is moving his people to action, he sure is showing his sense of humor. Pat Robertson choosing to support RUDY?!?


hehehehehe... God... You Joker!

 

[Angel Heart]

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html

Did Jesus advocate the use of a sword for self-defense purposes (Luke 22:36-38)?

Jesus is well known for His continued emphasis on love, forgiveness, and "turning the other cheek." It is therefore surprising to find Jesus advising the disciples to buy a sword in Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Did Jesus in this verse advocate the use of a sword for self-defense purposes?

This is an issue over which Christians have vehemently disagreed for many centuries. Following is a summary of the two basic views of how Christians have interpreted Jesus on this issue.

THE PATH OF NONRESISTANCE. Christian pacifists believe it is always wrong to injure other humans, no matter what the circumstances. And the same principles supporting pacifism carry over to nonresistance--the belief that any form of self-defense is wrong. This view is usually based on the exemplary life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

According to Christian pacifist John Yoder, Jesus rejected the existing political state of affairs and taught a form of radical nonviolence. Central to Christ's teaching, Yoder says, is His biblical mandate to "turn the other cheek" when encountering violence (Matthew 5:38-48).

In Yoder's view, the way to victorious living is to refrain from the game of sociopolitical control. Jesus exposed the futility of the violence engrafted in the present world system by resisting its inclinations even to the point of death. Hence, Christians are to refuse the world's violent methods and follow their Savior to the cross (Matthew 26:47-52). When Jesus told the disciples to buy a sword (Luke 22:36), pacifists suggest He was only speaking figuratively.

"TURN THE OTHER CHEEK" ALWAYS? It is true that Jesus said to turn the other cheek in Matthew 5:38-42. However, many scholars do not believe pacifism (or nonresistance) is the essential point of His teaching in this passage. These scholars do not believe Jesus was teaching to "turn the other cheek" in virtually all circumstances. Even Christ did not literally turn the other cheek when smitten by a member of the Sanhedrin (see John 18:22-23).

The backdrop to this teaching is that the Jews considered it an insult to be hit in the face, much in the same way that we would interpret someone spitting in our face. Bible scholar R. C. Sproul comments: "What's interesting in the expression is that Jesus specifically mentions the right side of the face [Matthew 5:39]....If I hit you on your right cheek, the most normal way would be if I did it with the back of my right hand....To the best of our knowledge of the Hebrew language, that expression is a Jewish idiom that describes an insult, similar to the way challenges to duels in the days of King Arthur were made by a backhand slap to the right cheek of your opponent."

The principle taught in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:38-42 would thus seem to be that Christians should not retaliate when insulted or slandered (see also Romans 12:17-21). Such insults do not threaten a Christian's personal safety. The question of rendering insult for insult, however, is a far cry from defending oneself against a mugger or a rapist.

In terms of following Christ's example, one must remember that His personal nonresistance at the cross was intertwined with His unique calling. He did not evade His arrest because it was God's will for Him to fulfill His prophetic role as the redemptive Lamb of God (Matthew 26:52-56). During His ministry, however, He refused to be arrested because God's timing for His death had not yet come (John 8:59). Thus, Christ's unique nonresistance during the Passion does not mandate against self-protection.

THE BIBLICAL CASE FOR SELF-DEFENSE. It is noteworthy that the Bible records many accounts of fighting and warfare. The providence of God in war is exemplified by His name YHWH Sabaoth ("The LORD of hosts"--Exodus 12:41). God is portrayed as the omnipotent Warrior-Leader of the Israelites. God, the LORD of hosts, raised up warriors among the Israelites called the shophetim (savior-deliverers). Samson, Deborah, Gideon, and others were anointed by the Spirit of God to conduct war. The New Testament commends Old Testament warriors for their military acts of faith (Hebrews 11:30-40). Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints--nor even Jesus--are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27). Here the "sword" (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler's equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.

Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14). When protecting one's family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others.

Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."

 

[Chips Rafferty]

It means that if someone hurts you, you should not take revenge. I think hes trying to say that revenge is bad news. Many people do this forgiveness thing even today. A person might lie to you, and you will sooner or later just get over it, just to be lied to again. Jesus wasnt telling people to not defend themselves, just dont take revenge on people for their wrongdoings. This is with the assumption that the people who are following his teachings are following all of them, and not just picking and choosing. Because of this, it is also assumed that the person is spreading the gospel about Jesus as well. I think the hope involved is that the person will find the straight and narrow path, and stop the sin.
A believer in Jesus and Biblical teachings is not someone that is well trusted by the majority of people. The reason why, is because people choose to think that the person is out to get them in trouble for whatever they are doing wrong. Thats not the case. At least, it shouldnt be. Instead, if the person is doing something wrong, the believer should just keep telling him or her the Gospel of Jesus, about the Good News and all that stuff.

The objective is to help people find faith, and become better people, not screw everyone over. You dont win anyones trust by screwing over thy neighbors wife, lol...

From above,

....just dont take revenge on people for their wrongdoings.

You mean like drowning all your kids - except for a family of disgustingly spineless sychophants - for doing what you set them up to do?

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Now, now, Chips... Let me help. (settle down.. Take a bayer, lol)

Hey a few things, first- 1 I can tell that you dont actually study or read the bible, and that most of what your angry words said are actually directed at false teachers. GOOD. Thats wonderful. It really is.
2- I can see that youre here in the religion forum for a purpose, and am thinking that might have something to do with wanting to learn something of truth about God, at least something believeable.
3- There is no "trinity"- trinitarian belief is polytheism, and is not a part of Christian doctrine. There is also no "rapture", either. There are a lot of things about God that would surprise most people, when they study it- like that Genesis is totally supportive of evolution, or that "having the fruit depart from the womb" early, is better than having more kids than you want, especially since life begins when we are given our first breath of air.

Here, check these websites out, Chips, do some keyword searches in bible gateway- some words that will help you see what the false teachers dont want you to see: "breath" "life", "breath of life", "fire" "wind" "hell" "hades", etc. Oh and go ahead and search for "trinity" or "rapture", lol.. they arent in there.
http://www.biblegateway.com

For more info, this website is really really good on debunking the false teachings, and helping people to find faith through truth.

http://enderfusion.com/Steve/?cat=31

Typical patronising Christian poppycock!

Heaps of far-fetched hypotheses about the utter fucking bilge in book of fables, without a single fact to back up your fear-founded fantasises.

 

[Dr Grump]

Unfortunately Jesus ain't around to tell us what he meant by those words. Yanks argue about their Constitution, which is a lot shorter, succinct and to the point, than the bible. And it's only 250 odd years old. How they hell they can interpret the bible, which is not only bigger and older, but just as ambiguous in many ways, is beyond me

 

[Shogun]

I'm sure even ron rhodes at earthlink.net and jim jone can agree on the reality of personal interpretations of the bible.

Funny how the examples for self defense comes strait from the OT instead of the NT... I guess when god says "NEW COVENANT" he is only making a suggestion. Indeed, why hash out the actual text of the "I bring a sword" passage when manipulating scripture like playdoh is more fun.

 

[mattskramer]

I think that the Bible is pretty clear on what Matthew 5 is saying. Simply read it word-for-word. There is no ambiguity or exception. (Just like there is no exception on the 2nd amendment.) It is just that if you keep turning the other cheek, soon you will have run out of cheeks to turn.

 

[Eightball]

I think that the Bible is pretty clear on what Matthew 5 is saying. Simply read it word-for-word. There is no ambiguity or exception. (Just like there is no exception on the 2nd amendment.) It is just that if you keep turning the other cheek, soon you will have run out of cheeks to turn.

The cheek obviously was metaphorical, as Peter asked Jesus how many times a person ought to forgive another for a sin or injustice done against him (Seven Times?). Jesus' succinct answer was, "seven times seventy!". If you want be legalistic, you could say, that after infraction/sin number "490", your allowed to wack off the bad person's head or do them in, and God is not displeased. That's the way of the traditionalistic, legalistic Pharisees, and scribes of Jesus' day. They displayed religiosity on the outside, but as Jesus referred to them, they were white washed tombs. I.E. Empty or devoid of life on the inside.

Jesus of course didn't say "seven times seventy" as a limit-point, but as a way of communicating, that the Christian, must never stop "forgiving" those who trespass or sin against he or she or anyone, or God.

He didn't say not to defend one's self.

Folks have a hard time separating out being judgemental, and being discerning. So often, the Christian is called, "homophobic" or other monikers because they call things as they see them in respect to scriptural/biblical truths. Folks also don't understand that the Christian discerns and sees sin as bad, and also discerns or sees a person who transgresses God's moral authority as committing sin, but God emphatically says to "not" hate the sinner, but to love him/her. Jerry Falwell was always singled out as a "gay" or homosexual hater, yet, never did Falwell express this, but only expressed disdain for the sin, or act of homosexuality.

I will admit that the Christian community needs to work even more at living-out the "love" side of their faith, and not over balance it with so much scriptural mandate to the point of legalism. Love, as Paul said, must undergird all of the Christian's living, breathing life. Every action, on good and bad days must be injected with appropriating God's love in the Christians life. Christians have no reason, to not be thankful in heart, yet we do fall off the "wagon" at times, as we lose sight of where we once were, before we were picked up out of the mirey clay of living for ourselves and not living in faith in God.

Sin is sin in God's eyes. We pay for it one way or another on planet earth. We reap what we sow. Even when we confess our sins, it doesn't mean that we won't suffer the consequences of sin. That's the natural laws of the universe as set by the Maker. Gravity is gravity. We can defy it for awhile in an airplane or a space station, but gradually the law will win. The big difference is dieing or living, though a sinner.

One can hate the sinful act, and not hate the one committing the act. Folks that come from a non-biblical/Christian approach say that, "you" the biblical one, or Christian, should accept the whole package, or you're not being trully loving. In other words, they can't understand that the sinful act is separable from the person in respect to loving the individual. If there was no means of separating the perpetrator from the act, then Jesus could not have given His life for that sinner, as that sinner was doomed in soul by the act of rebellion to God.

Jesus stopped the adulterous woman from being "stoned" to death, yet told her, that He forgave her. The most important parting words, were, "Go, and sin no more!". In other words, Jesus loved the sinner/woman, but abhorred the sin, or the sinful act that came out of her life's choice. He came to bridge the "sin gap" between humanity and it's Holy, loving, and eternal Maker.

That is the mandate for every true Christian. Love the person, not the sin. Christians have nothing to brag about, except Christ/God, as we aren't converted/saved by our goodness, as we are all sinners, and are only saved by the unmerited favor of God or what is commonly referred to as "grace".

Sadly so many folks judge Christians, as "judging" people, when often all a Christian is expressing is disdain for sin, and not the one committing it. It has become very un "P.C." to discern.

Discern:

1 a: to detect with the eyes <discerned a figure approaching through the fog> b: to detect with senses other than vision <discerned a strange odor>
2: to recognize or identify as separate and distinct : discriminate <discern right from wrong>
3: to come to know or recognize mentally <unable to discern his motives>
intransitive verb


I will also say, that there are many Christians that do unbiblically judge others when they "judge" or discern that these people are not living Godly lives according to their parameters. Sadly, many who claim Christ as their Lord of their lives, forget that they, too, were once "dead" in their sins, and received God's forgiveness, though undeserved.

Christians can trully be very judgemental, and a few bad apples can spoil the whole barrel of apples.

Zacheus, the tax collector is a perfect example of how Christians need to respond or live out their new lives in Christ.

The very religious of Christ's time despised the likes of Zacheus. He was a Jew, that worked for the Romans, collecting taxes. That was one count againt him. The second was that he dipped in the tax till, and lived a live of debauchery, and probably broke nearly all ten of the commandments.

Yet, Christ, saw Zacheus up in a tree, trying to get a better view of this famous Man, Jesus, coming through his neighborhood. Jesus, called out to this gross sinner, Zacheus, and said, "I'm dining with you tonight.".

What a shocking blow to the very religious, who judged people and their acts as one unholy package! Yet, Jesus, looked past the sins of Zacheus, and saw a human being. A human being that was created by God, in His image, yet was defiled with the fall of Adam and Eve from eons ago.

Jesus didn't go to Zacheus's house to join in a drinking, fest, or to involve Himself in debauchery of any kind. He went to Zacheus's house because He saw a "person", as He saw all "persons". He loved Zacheus, and desired to commune with him. He also realized that this, "sinner" climbed that tree, because, though he was "lost" and "dead" in his sins, he was seeking. What did Zacheus do when Jesus extended love and friendship to him? Zacheus, repented of his sinful life, and said that he would return stolen tax moneys, and would thence after turn his life around to trusting God. Salvation had come to the household of Zacheus! God's love, melts the hardest souls, if allowed to enter.

God knows our hearts better than we know them ourselves. Yet, He hung on the cross and said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do!". We all like sheep have gone astray, and badly need a shepherd. The bible says that God desires that not one of us, He desires should be lost. Yet, at the same time, God calls, He also endowed us with free will, so that when we approach Him for forgiveness and new life, it is not as robots or automatons, but as willful creatures, who have not been forced into subserviant life, but are willfully desirous, and thankful, for the "pardon" from total, eternal separation from our Creator.

Sadly, so many, want, Christians to be monikered as homophobes, and judgemental folks. If you can make someone bad before others, then it takes the discerning "light" off of oneself. Deflect guilt, is the theme of now and the past. It has never changed. Cain kills Abel, and trys to make an excuse. We all try to deflect conviction against us, as it trully hurts, to face ourselves nakedly to the exposure of our true intents of soul.

Zacheus, was a courageous man, yet a sinner. A sinner is one who commits sin. He was courageous, because he faced his demons, and wanted "out", and realized that his life may have been worldly prosperous, but was a "dead end" without the prospect forgiveness, and peace with his Maker.

Christ knew that we have but, two cheeks, and He also told Peter before His other disciples and followers, that forgiveness isn't so much a command, as a expression of a life that realizes that they have no solid ground to stand on and judge others. Man can do all the charitable things possible in this world, but it can't remove the very nature that hides deep in some and in others exudes out easily. Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.". "All"........Some will appropriate God's pardoning work through Christ, some will sadly, refuse.

 

[Shogun]

mere disdain for sin my ass.

Pastor in Microsoft 'gay rights' share Bid

A black conservative Christian pastor of an evangelical megachurch has vowed to take over Microsoft by packing it with new shareholders who will vote against the company's policy of championing gay rights.

He told Microsoft executives at a shareholders' meeting last week that he would be their "worst nightmare" if they continued to defy him

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/16/wmicro116.xml


Sure, jebus hated sin... but that didn't keep him from mingling with sinners while trying to appeal to their reason with his message. HE didn't use rome to shut down whorehouses while the behaviour was a sin. If christians don't like feeling like bigots then maybe they should stop acting like modern pharisees hiding behind dogma (instead of jewish laws)


Since you brought up Jerry Fallwell let's take a bet on how soon he will mingle with the sinnful gay community like jesus did with whores wile trying to spread the word of jebus... Turns out, it's easier to demonize them and use Ceasar to lean on their culture. It's pretty clear why the passage began with "let he who is sinless"

 

[mattskramer]

Jesus of course didn't say "seven times seventy" as a limit-point, but as a way of communicating, that the Christian, must never stop "forgiving" those who trespass or sin against he or she or anyone, or God.

He didn't say not to defend one's self.

He did not say to defend one's self.

In many areas of the Bible, God/Jesus/Spirit whatever speaks of returning evil with good. Read the many sentences of Matthew 5. Read where Jesus said “He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword”. Read where Jesus said “Jet he who is without sin cast the first stone.” I think that Jesus really was a supporter of deep passifism (as impractical as his instructions might be today). He may have lost his temper in a market square/temple when he saw some greedy corrupt money men, but other than that one incident in which he chased people away, I don’t see one instance where he said “physically defend yourself when physically attacked. “

I read the rest of your post. It ssems to be going off-point. I understand about disliking the behavior and loving the person. The debate is ofer what the Bible means by turning the other cheek.

 

[Shogun]

even his actions with the money changers at the temple is hardly an excuse for christians to react violently. He didn't kill anyone in defense of his person. There was no personal threat. Indeed, he was cleaning up his own house.

 

[Eightball]

He did not say to defend one's self.

In many areas of the Bible, God/Jesus/Spirit whatever speaks of returning evil with good. Read the many sentences of Matthew 5. Read where Jesus said “He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword”. Read where Jesus said “Jet he who is without sin cast the first stone.” I think that Jesus really was a supporter of deep passifism (as impractical as his instructions might be today). He may have lost his temper in a market square/temple when he saw some greedy corrupt money men, but other than that one incident in which he chased people away, I don’t see one instance where he said “physically defend yourself when physically attacked. “

I read the rest of your post. It ssems to be going off-point. I understand about disliking the behavior and loving the person. The debate is ofer what the Bible means by turning the other cheek.

I think the eye for an eye principle was not what Jesus meant, although, He did say if your eye causes you sin, pluck it out, and also mentioned other body parts as metaphorical examples in Matthew. Basically, He meant any area of life that you pursue or do that leads you into sin or away from God, you should avoid, or eliminate it.

Christians are called to "defend" the gospel, but to get in a knife fight to bring the gospel to the unsaved is not right either.

Some Christians take the "Do not defend" principle to mean that you stand helplessly by as your wife is raped, or house is robbed, your children threatened.

I always wondered about the Armour of God, of Ephesians, and it's interesting, but it was described in most ways as defensive armour, yet the Sword part was the gospel or God's truth/Word, and the only part of the armour that seemed offensive in nature.

So the bringing of the gospel was an offensive move, but the rest of the Christian life was not intended to be provocative except for the part that spread, extended, offered, the scriptural truth of God. Obviously, God did not desire the Word to cause provocation, but it was inevitable.

Actually, all a Christian has to do in some cases is just live-out their new life in Christ, and the trouble will come their way whether they asked for it or not. People will take offense and some will find it interesting, and desire what makes a Christian "tick" inside.

Paul said he planted, and Apollos watered, but God harvested.

The waterer's and planters will get flack and blessing.

The Christian army isn't the Crusades, blustering along, bustin heads, and forcing phony conversion by the work of the manmade sword.

God's sword, is His Truth/Word. It cuts deep into a man/woman's soul. As the bible says, "Right to the very marrow of the bone.". Can't get deeper than that.

Jesus was referred to the stumbling stone, and the stone of offense. His life rubs like sand paper against unsaved man's life/agenda. Something as to give.

 

[Shogun]

oh the mellowdrama..




it's funny how we never see secular america having to tell the AMISH to stop pushing their dogma onto people. Funnier still, we just don't see the AMISH complain about being picked on by big bad evil non believers. In fact, the AMISH live and let live.

Certainly, Jerry Fallwell and the Microsoft Preacher above don't fall into that realm of religious tolerance. If you choose to be a christian then good for you. I hope that works out for you. It's hardly "rubs like sand paper against unsaved man's life/agenda" until the alter jockey of the day comes along and starts rationalizing aggression in the name of jesus. Again, Jesus took his word to the whores without having to use ceasar to eliminate whores altogether. I wonder if there is a lesson here besides getting some quivering lip action on.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Unfortunately Jesus ain't around to tell us what he meant by those words. Yanks argue about their Constitution, which is a lot shorter, succinct and to the point, than the bible. And it's only 250 odd years old. How they hell they can interpret the bible, which is not only bigger and older, but just as ambiguous in many ways, is beyond me

It is all very simplistic, if you are saved like Me, (PBUM!) Dr Gump.

Back in the God Ol&#8217; Days, the illiterate, superstitious peasantry relied on the travelling show of Chewsarse and his 12 snake oil salesmen, who apparently pimped the Tattooed and Snake Ladies for their upkeep to find out what the (yet again!) Reform Judaism was about.

These credulous clod-hoppers then carried this theologically complex message by verbally repeating (see the &#8220;Blessed are the Cheesemakers&#8221; scene in the Life of Brian) their interpretation of what they thought they heard to other feeble-minded farmers.

The same moron-to-moron method of transmission applies in the contemporary world capitol of Christendoom, The United States of Hysterica, to this day.

Except nowadays, poofs, paedophiles, and &#8220;patriots&#8221; dominate the pulpits of the 38,000 idiotic, doctrinally disparate sects that make America a global laughing stock. (Although Jebus and his misogynistic band of seeming bum buddies must have looked VERY suss in old Israel, where marriage and manufacturing more tithe payers for the fascist's fetid abattoir/Temple, was the rule for all men.)

The Gods tell Me they wanted their &#8220;word&#8221; to become a Babel of mutually belligerent, Jerry Springerish &#8220;Shoe and Gourd&#8221; sects - that we see in New Rome today.

There is no way known they wanted a repeat of the close-run &#8220;Babel Affair.&#8221; Where mankind almost reached Heaven by building a brick and pitch Ziggurat (perhaps) a couple of hundred feet high!

Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they propose to do will be impossible for them. Come, let US go down there and confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.'" (Gen. 11:5-7)

I swear every word of My missive is exactly as the Gods divulged to Me one night in one of My many Brandy induced comas!

And if anyone here doubts My Word, they are dirty indecent sinners that the Gods are gonna get because they doubted My self-indulent delirium!