"Love Your Enemy." "Turn The Other Cheek." What Did J.C. Mean?

[Shogun]

A good definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If I am insane, then why have the results of my new life led to greater peace, joy, satisfaction, and stability? I was once as beligerrent, angry, and irrational as the anti-theists in this thread. If that is sanity, I want no part of it and I know it brings no beneficial results.

Trust me, that's a mutual opinion.



Also, I get the feeling that many think "turn the other cheek" means to not defend onesself, or that we have two cheeks, so take two slaps then start hitting back. I don't see either interpretation as biblical. It is a moral imperative to defend oneself from grevious or mortal harm. Getting slapped never killed or seriously hurt anyone that I am aware of, so I think it is more a command to humble oneself when one is attacked or persecuted and allow justice (God's or the law's) to take its course.


great. militant christians. sure haven't seen those before.




Funny, I asked specific questions based on scripture and the silence is deafening. I would ask for ANY example of jesus alluding to ANY kind of violent personal defense but I'm absolutely positive that all i'll hear is the same ole boohoo martyr routine where criticism of dogma all of a sudden becomes just like roman lions..

 

[OrnotBitwise]

I don't know what that has to do with anything. I wasn't raised Christian, and now I am. Hinduism is a religion, based on meaningless rituals, and the concept that this life is essentially meaningless because, hey, you get a do-over, and it will get better, eventually, so just accept where you are in life, try to be a good person, and drudge on until this one goes and you get a better one. Christianity is diametrically opposed to this.


As opposed to fearful of authoritarianism and inclined to not being engaged in reality. If there are many truths, there is no truth. If there are many paths, why have any? If we are not made to live forever, why would we have a concept of eternity? Philosophy is an attempt to acertain truth through logical means. It is a science. If anything goes, nothing of value can be known. I know you don't care as all you can do is find satisfaction in abusing the stupid God-people and anything resembling decency as vulgarly as possible, but, alas, I continue.

To a casual or closed-minded observer from the outside ANY religion appears to be based on meaningless rituals. That's no less true of Christianity than it is of Hinduism. Most educated people of faith today, however, accept ecumenism at least in principle.

I don't see how your syllogism equating "many truths" with "no truth" is supposed to work. It seems needlessly didactic to me.

 

[AllieBaba]

Jesus, as God, told us what was best for us, and the best way to access Him. That was his motive. God understands the workings of our minds intimately, and we can bash the question around "what did/does it all MEAN" but ultimately, there will be no understanding the mind of God.

As reasonable beings, we can observe the fact that doing your best to be a forgiving and kind person will make you a better person, and will bring in and of itself, it's own rewards.

 

[Kid Pickle]

great. militant christians. sure haven't seen those before.




Funny, I asked specific questions based on scripture and the silence is deafening. I would ask for ANY example of jesus alluding to ANY kind of violent personal defense but I'm absolutely positive that all i'll hear is the same ole boohoo martyr routine where criticism of dogma all of a sudden becomes just like roman lions..

I fail to see how asserting a right to defend onesself or another from grevious or mortal harm is "militant." If someone who does not value life wants to take mine, assuming I am not threatening him first, I must do what I can to stop him, as his killing me makes him a murderer and allows him to continue to damage and destroy life and my death leaves my wife without a husband, my children fatherless, my employers without an employee, and in general all the people depending upon me, both currently and in potentia, for benefits to do without them. When a murder is committed, the one murdered is not the victim, as he is dead and outside of temporal cause and effect. The victims are those connected to the deceased throughout time who have to deal with the loss. One who maliciously hurts or kills someone is very likely to do so again and again. Therefore, it is logical, moral, and necessary, not to mention instinctual and perfectly legal in civilized societies, to defend ones own life.

Quite honestly, Jesus mentions nothing about self-defense against a violent aggressor outside of where the aggressor has legal authority to act as such. Jesus told Peter to put away his sword because he was willing to submit to the authority of the Sanhedrin. A violent uprising violates the law. Jesus teaches us to submit to the law in all cases except where one would violating God's will as revealed in scripture to do so, willingly accepting any penalties, so that we may be found without moral fault against those who accuse us of wrongdoing. That's a hard line to follow and nobody's perfect, but it is an essential component of biblical teaching. Self-defense, in situations like I described above, is just common sense and perfectly legal in most cases. Despite what many athiests may think, Christians don't need to be told by God to chew our food and then swallow, to hold our breath underwater, etc. Some things go without saying.

 

[Kid Pickle]

To a casual or closed-minded observer from the outside ANY religion appears to be based on meaningless rituals. That's no less true of Christianity than it is of Hinduism. Most educated people of faith today, however, accept ecumenism at least in principle.

I concede to you that from my point of view Hinduism is meaningless. My point really is that all ritual-based religion is meaningless. The rituals themselves have a percieved meaning, but they have little or nothing to do with the heart of the individual. In Hinduism, or any religion, a person who understands the deep meaning of the rituals and a person who just goes through the motions because of habit, tradition, whatever are both considered Hindu. It's outwardly-based. Christianity is about a personal, internal, heart and mind relationship with The Creator who condescended to be human for a time to show his love for his created people. If people go to church, eat the bread and wine, sing the songs, etc., just because they feel they have to for whatever reason but don't have a personal relationship with the Almighty through the risen Christ, they are not Christians. One who does is a Christian whether they do all that stuff or not, but they choose to do so out of gratitude for their Savior and Creator. It's not an easily explained difference, one better experienced, but a difference nonetheless.

I don't see how your syllogism equating "many truths" with "no truth" is supposed to work. It seems needlessly didactic to me.

By definition there cannot be "many" truths. Either I exist or I do not. It is not really debatable. Either gravity is a reality or it is not. It is not a matter of opinion. The Laws of Thermodynamics are not dependant upon one's perceptions. If something is true, it can be determined to be so. Once something is determined to be true it cannot be simultaneously something contradictory or it will be, by definition, false.

 

[jillian]

By definition there cannot be "many" truths. Either I exist or I do not. It is not really debatable. Either gravity is a reality or it is not. It is not a matter of opinion. The Laws of Thermodynamics are not dependant upon one's perceptions. If something is true, it can be determined to be so. Once something is determined to be true it cannot be simultaneously something contradictory or it will be, by definition, false.

That may be true. But none of us are in a position to know what absolute truth is with regard to our Creator until we're actually dead. There is also the distinct possibility that religions are simply the different languages with which we talk to G-d, and G-d is multi-lingual. So, perhaps, G-d doesn't care a whit what religion we subscribe to, or if we have any religion at all, so long as we try to be decent people and make the world a better place.

That being the case, everything else is a function of FAITH. We can believe our faith is correct. Presumably, if we didn't, we wouldn't hold to that faith and would find another.

It's the arrogance of thinking that one's FAITH is the ONLY "true faith" that has led to nothing but bloodshed for thousands of years.

and to put it in perspective:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rCz0-HY1TLU&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rCz0-HY1TLU&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

 

[Psychoblues]

Such a silly conversation for such a simple question.

WWJD?

 

[Annie]

Such a silly conversation for such a simple question.

WWJD?

Smote you! For sure.

 

[Psychoblues]

Not at all.

Smote you! For sure.

Thank you anyway.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

I concede to you that from my point of view Hinduism is meaningless. My point really is that all ritual-based religion is meaningless. The rituals themselves have a percieved meaning, but they have little or nothing to do with the heart of the individual. In Hinduism, or any religion, a person who understands the deep meaning of the rituals and a person who just goes through the motions because of habit, tradition, whatever are both considered Hindu. It's outwardly-based. Christianity is about a personal, internal, heart and mind relationship with The Creator who condescended to be human for a time to show his love for his created people. If people go to church, eat the bread and wine, sing the songs, etc., just because they feel they have to for whatever reason but don't have a personal relationship with the Almighty through the risen Christ, they are not Christians. One who does is a Christian whether they do all that stuff or not, but they choose to do so out of gratitude for their Savior and Creator. It's not an easily explained difference, one better experienced, but a difference nonetheless.

All you've demonstrated here is that Christianity speaks to you, personally, while other religions do not. And only one particular branch of the Christian tradition: several of the Eastern Orthodox sects resemble your conception of Hinduism far more than your conception of Christianity. All of which is fine, so far as it goes.

By definition there cannot be "many" truths. Either I exist or I do not. It is not really debatable. Either gravity is a reality or it is not. It is not a matter of opinion. The Laws of Thermodynamics are not dependant upon one's perceptions. If something is true, it can be determined to be so. Once something is determined to be true it cannot be simultaneously something contradictory or it will be, by definition, false.

Sorry but that is not logically valid. Any statement of truth -- call it "A" for convenience -- does not preclude any other true statements in and of itself. That is, you cannot simply conclude "A is true therefore B is not". Not without additional statements that demonstrate why "B" must not be true if "A" is.

You are correct that one can never state "A and NOT A". That's where my nick comes from, in a sense. *

Look, in the practical sense, there's no reason why ALL of the major religions can't be "correct." On the surface they seem contradictory. Serious scholars of all religious traditions, however, usually have little difficulty in finding room for everyone. At least to the extent of saying "well, they're free to believe what they want" if nothing else.

Since you're a Christian I assume you're having trouble with that "none come to the Father save by me" -- choose your favorite translation: I'm not picky -- thingy. Many Christians take that as an admonition against any faith other than their own. Many other Christians, however, see it quite differently. They would say that anyone who comes to the Father -- by whatever path -- also comes to Jesus, even if not by name.

Damned religions. It's all so murky and subjective!





*Actually, one can state it in quantum mechanics but lets not go there. Tends to muddy the waters horribly. I always worry about who's going to feed the poor cat anyway.

 

[midcan5]

Interesting discussion, very funny at times.

"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." Richard Feynman

 

[DDdavis]

It dosent matter what you know, what matters is what the person you are trying to communicate with knows. If you dump the whole load on them as to what you know then you belittle them and that does not feel good for any one, because no one knows it all. And if you belittle someone you loose, because their just going to be pissed and not listen to another word that you say, thats when you turn the other cheek, because it was you that overloaded them. If you are fishing you dont throw the boat anker at them. Fishing for men is the same way, you have to go down to their level, if in fact they are not as smart as you on a subject and try to bring them up gradualy. And I am sorry in advance if I misspelled any words, I might not have a PHD, DO or anything else in front of my name, but I have studied Gods word, and have taken the english back to the Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac languages. If you dont you do not get the full meaning of the King James, or Gods word in general. Dr. Strongs did a good work with the Strongs Concordance that lets you know the meaning of the words and numbers of the bible. For instance 50 means pentacost 18 bondage. The word hebrew just means those that crossed the river, moses, drawn from the water and so on.

 

[LuckyDan]

By definition there cannot be "many" truths. Either I exist or I do not. It is not really debatable. Either gravity is a reality or it is not. It is not a matter of opinion. The Laws of Thermodynamics are not dependant upon one's perceptions. If something is true, it can be determined to be so. Once something is determined to be true it cannot be simultaneously something contradictory or it will be, by definition, false.

That may be true. But none of us are in a position to know what absolute truth is with regard to our Creator until we're actually dead. There is also the distinct possibility that religions are simply the different languages with which we talk to G-d, and G-d is multi-lingual. So, perhaps, G-d doesn't care a whit what religion we subscribe to, or if we have any religion at all, so long as we try to be decent people and make the world a better place.

That being the case, everything else is a function of FAITH. We can believe our faith is correct. Presumably, if we didn't, we wouldn't hold to that faith and would find another.

It's the arrogance of thinking that one's FAITH is the ONLY "true faith" that has led to nothing but bloodshed for thousands of years.

and to put it in perspective:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rCz0-HY1TLU&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rCz0-HY1TLU&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

That would be Christianity and...what?

 

[Hister]

Turn the other cheek refers to ass cheeks.

 

[editec]

Its pretty solid that he did exsist ,there are many independant mmentions of him throughout history from what I understand.

You have been misinformed.

There is one passing reference to somebody who might possibly have been talking about Jesus dying by crucifixtion.

Book 15 of the Annals (written c. 116) by the Roman historian Tacitus mentions Christus as a person convicted by Pontius Pilate during Tiberius' reign:

auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat[1]
​

source

There is a LOT of history extant from that period, but none (except the above) that even remotely confirms the story of Jesus.

Pretty slim pickings to founding our Western Christendom on, but that's how it worked out, anyway.

 

[DDdavis]

Its like loving your children, sometimes tough love is the most pure. If your child wants to run and play in the traffic, do you correct them or just let them go. And some people it takes a little bit more correction than others. Say for instance if someone wants to cut your head off for just proclaiming to be christian, then you are going to have to deal with them instead of just letting them behead you. All people have the right to believe as they wish, but when it comes to them believing that they are doing something godly by beheading you then you have to deal with that person with tough love.

 

[DDdavis]

That just goes to show, what I said in the beginning. It doesent matter what people post on this site you will have a negative response. Repent my friend Repent and you might find peace. And I took that cold shower as you suggested but it still did not change my oppinion about you. You have alot of hate in your heart, and it comes thru in your words.

 

[Smartt33]

"Love Your Enemy." "Turn The Other Cheek."

Much, even most of what Jesus taught was not understood by His disciples, or even the multitudes who heard it. Until after Jesus ascended into heaven the disciples did not understand what Jesus meand about raising the Temple in three days, or returning again.

In the statements given for discussion, instruction was given, but at the time it was not really possible for the peple to follow those instructions. That was demonstrated by Peter several times. However, it was the coming of the Holy Spirit that brought enlightenment to understand, and power to accomplish the instructions.

It is not within us to turn the other cheek, or even to understnad what that means unless the Holy Spirit emlightens us and then empowers us to do it.

The same is true about loving your enemies.

If you have the Holy Spirit, you can understand and do what Jesus said.

 

[Hister]

Love your enemy, so all American christians love Osama bin Laden? And the 9/11 hijackers?

 

[Douger]

When King James reviewed the documents prepared by his psychologists he made damn sure that " turn the other cheek' was included since he knew exactly who the enemy was.
Then ?
Him and all other " royalty' and their soldiers and jack booted thugs. Toss in the tax man too.
Today ?
Identical.

You've all been duped.