Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
He fought when he wipped the maoney changers.
He did not fight when he knew message would suffer.
He stood for what he believed and it was more important than even his own life to him.
That is standing on priciple.
Care is right because people could not forget his message of peace when he refused to fight because it was the only way to truely protect what he believed.
Peace my brothers and sisters.
"Love Your Enemy." "Turn The Other Cheek." What Did Jesus Mean?
Dear Folks/Forum Members:
The title of this thread basically says it all.
I would like to ask all of you folks what you think Jesus meant, or intended by those radical statements.
These statements flew in the face, of man's/woman's way of handling or dealing with a part of life that can or could be a big issue at times.
********
Jesus was a radical in my opinion. I think that His statements would have been met with a lot of head scratching by a majority of mankind, even now.
Now, being a radical, I don't mean a radical in a negative sense, but radical in His stance or statement in lieu of past or prevailing beliefs.
****
Again, I did post this to stimulate some discussion about this "radical" man's statements.
Please, can we keep this discussion around His statements I mentioned, and not digress into, those people of the past or even present that claim or allege to be Christians and have done someone, large groups, or even nation's of people wrong, unethical, inhumane, acts.
I'm not trying to avoid those past inhumane acts, but want to "key" in on Jesus's specific statements and what it meant, and what you think.
*******
Please share your insights into those "radical" statements that Jesus made nearly 2,000 years ago.
******
Respectfull folks: Can we try to concentrate on the intent of the thread, and thats to have discussion about the merits of what Jesus said in this topic?
I don't want to this to digress into, "Was Jesus real" or areas that don't pertain to the actual statements that are before us to digest, understand, and comment on.
Was Jesus if He was real, just a man, God, or a fictional story character, right in these statements towards mankind? That's where I'd like the direction to to and not into the merits of a religion or the alleged contradictions of the O.T. or N.T. take on God.
If we are going to philosophise about fairies-at-the-bottom-of-the-garden, then the question should be; Why did this fictitious Syrian Riddler purposely pitch such imponderable Pesher posers at the imperceptive Palestinian peasantry, if he wasnt trying to protect some privileged esoteric wisdom?
What hope did these poor recently Neanderthal nomads have of undoing The Gordian Knot of what Jewsarse "meant" when the finest non-minds in contemporary Christendom still argue over what the fuck their blessed rabbit's-foot was on about?
If this pig phobic, poor man's Palestinian Mithra was merely trying to pass on the means for the simple-minded subsistence farmers, their day labourers, and the assorted slothful shit-kickers, spivs, pimps, and prostitutes that he is supposed to have loved to save themselves, as simplistic Christians claim, then why didnt he couch his convoluted missives in language that the lowest I.Q in his audience could comprehend, instead of conceitedly posing conundrums for the theosophic sages of the social elite?
Obviously this bullshitting, big-headed, Bedouin version of P.T. Barnum was a social climbing little creep who could give a withered fig about the smelly masses and their final reward.
The supposed Jesus supposedly simplified New Testament has bought about nothing but division, discord, dissension, and death ever since patrician Paul and his Greco-Romanised Hebrew Proddie hanger-ons penned their cerebral Paulsy as the perfect system to pacify and control the understandably rebellious peasantry once and for all.
Also keep in mind that in the Hebrew language there was three basic "love" definitions, and context in the bibleverses when used.
There was Phileo - love - Which basically meant having a "delight" in something or someone.
There was Eros - love - Which was of a sexual, or erotic nature or type of love for another.
There was Agape - love - Which was not an emotional based, but an "action" of "commitment of one's self to another at the expense of one's own desires, or to the extreme, of one's own life, security, or safety.
The love that Christ displayed on the Cross was of the Agape category. As was previously mentioned, it was giving preference over another...i.e. an enemy (the world/mankind) and loving that enemy.
Now "Agape" love seems very impossible in human terms, especially when we look at Christ's expression of it in His life, especially at Golgotha (The Skull/Calvary), or the place of His crucifixion.
The interesting thing about this "Agape" love was that Jesus didn't say that it was reserved for us humans to exhibit in heaven after leaving earth in death. He/Christ as well as His devoted Apostles over and over again in their many letters in the N.T. stressed that Agape love was the glue of the Christian life, and community, and also the mark of a true Christian, and the means at which the non-Christian world would be drawn to Christ through exposure to this community called, "Christ ones" or Christians.
This may seem like a very simplistic, and ordinary example of little import to many, but many years ago when we lived in the Pacific Northwest, while I was attending bible college, we lived in a little urban neighborhood in Vancouver, Wa.. We were experiencing a pretty powerful Winter Pacific rain storm with blustery winds and heavy rains on a particular day. I had just come home from my attendance at college over the border in Portland, Oregon, and was driving into my driveway, and noticed that the extreme gusty winds had blown most of the garbage cans all over the street and far down the street from each neighbor's house. It had been garbage pickup day that morning.
Anyway, it was pouring down rain, and I got out of my car and chased-down my garbage can and put it in a safe wind resistant place. I don't know why, but I thought, all my neighbors are going to come home and will not find their garbage cans by early evening, or will be running all over the place trying to find them, who knows where.
So eightballsidepocket decided, well, I'm home, I'll just spend some time chasing down my neighbor's garbage cans, and placing them in safe places at each house.
It took awhile, but I got it done, and went in the house and didn't think more of it. I didn't pat myself on the back, or anything. I just wanted to be helpful to my neighbors. I didn't care if anyone knew I did it or not.
Anyway, my immediate neighbor at the time had been searching along with his wife for a system of belief in God, and had numerous visits from Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. They had many visits and much of the doctrines of these religions was discussed with my neighbors.
Well, my little garbage can chase had not gone unnoticed by those neighbors. I never knew that both the husband and wife saw me do it and return their garbage can to their house.
Some time after that episode, I had an opportunity to meet my neighbor as we were both out mowing our respective lawns, and kind-of met at the property boundary lines of our lawns and stopped and introduced ourselves. My neighbor asked about me, and I told him about my attendance in bible college and interest in Christian ministry. I had no idea this neighbor and his wife were searching for God, or had a deep longing for faith in God. As it turned out, my neighbor really opened up to me about his desires in his life and even the Mormon and JW's visits they had been having in their search. I and my wife invited them over for a "get to know you" BBQ at our home next door, and from there we just talked a lot about religion, faith, the bible, raising kids, and all kinds of stuff of life.
There came a time when these folks literally asked my wife and I to help them become Christians. As it turned out, the two of them literally bowed their heads at our dinner table one night and gave their lives to Christ in such sincerety as I was asked to lead them in prayer.
My neighbor later said to me what was the catalyst of this whole thing that led up to them seeing Christianity in it's purest biblical form as the Truth or Way in their lives. It was that day when their "crazy" neighbor was chasing down all the neighbor's garbage cans, instead of getting out of the cold soaking rain, like any normal person in the neighborhood would have.
*******
That act on my part was of little sacrifice. Yet Agape love is not a feeling or emotion, but an act of doing onto another without expecting reciprocation back. It's acting according to your nature or the life that God has placed in your soul when you became a bonafide Christian. That life came in as a result of responding to, "grace" or unmerited love and favor, as all of us humans are without merit earning us favor with God. Not the goodie two shoes or the arch criminal. We have all fallen short of God's glory, and life, and we know it, or we are in sickly denial.
Agape love is big and little things. It's making dinner for your wife when she's sick, or changing a bed pan of an invalid, when you'd rather be somewhere else. It's playing catch with your son, when you'd rather watch Monday night football and have a Budweiser instead.
Agape love isn't doing something you don't want to do, but is doing something you know in your conscience is the thing to do, but might not agree with your emotions or feelings. The power of sin is ever present in the world and it works on Christians overtime, and is the yoke of the unknowing non-Christian 24 hours a day.
So as we all know, Jesus loves the World........That's obvious as we've all seen the John 3:16 signs at ball games and probably have heard it quoted numerous times. The world as a general rule isn't very loveable in our human perspective, yet Christ a fully human man, and God incarnate, loved the unloveable of society as well as those that didn't think they needed fixing ( Actually they were the sickest in their soul). It's that forgiving life of unmerited favor towards the unmerited..i.e. grace that is in every true Christian. Now whether or not every true Christian wants to exercise that life of Christ in them, which is also called the Holy Spirit, the Counselor, is up to the will of that individual Christian. The will can be referred to in simplistic terms as one's "chooser". I kind of like those simplistic terms. It does make it easier for me to make application of certain things in my life.
Anyway, 3:16 basically said that even our enemys are loved by God. How can this be? Well, God made our enemy as well as us. Our enemy was made in His image, yet is our threatening protagonist, or maybe a threat in some other way, or has been one who has hurt us verbally, or financially.
Jesus didn't say that we are to lay down our lives at the expense of defending our family with His call to love your enemy. Loving your enemy may involve praying for your nemesis, yet still having to defend your safety and those that depend on your umbrella of safety from that nemesis. To the world that does not have the Spirit of Christ, it is as foreign as oil mixing with water.
I've actually forgiven individuals who have hurt me in different ways, when I had done nothing to deserve the rejection or attack. I've been amazed at how the angst or hatred that I had inside me dissipated when I continued to force myself to pray for someone who had been downright mean to me. I can't explain the mechanics of the anger and revenge leaving, but it had to be Christ's life in me taking the "throne" position over good old eightball being the master and captain of what was right for his Christian life.
I've prayed about giving up possessions that were burdensome to afford, yet I had this strong attraction and need for them, and had to literally pray, and ask God to take the possession from me or make me willing to give it up. He has never failed to change my inner man or heart at some later point after praying those prayers, where I could sell or get rid of some prized possession without the slightest remorse or longing. It literally has blown me away!
Agape love is supernatural, and it is possible to exercise it in one's life on planet earth. It is only possible to be in possessed by God in Christ's life to experience this, when one is at a point of realizing and actively giving one's life and "all" to God and Christ as Lord of one's life.
********
The true Christian life isn't an easy road. It's a hard road, but it's also one that the true Christian never would regret taking.
Also keep in mind that in the Hebrew language there was three basic "love" definitions, and context in the bibleverses when used.
Also keep in mind that in the Hebrew language there was three basic "love" definitions, and context in the bibleverses when used.
There was Phileo - love - Which basically meant having a "delight" in something or someone.
There was Eros - love - Which was of a sexual, or erotic nature or type of love for another.
There was Agape - love - Which was not an emotional based, but an "action" of "commitment of one's self to another at the expense of one's own desires, or to the extreme, of one's own life, security, or safety.
The love that Christ displayed on the Cross was of the Agape category. As was previously mentioned, it was giving preference over another...i.e. an enemy (the world/mankind) and loving that enemy.
Now "Agape" love seems very impossible in human terms, especially when we look at Christ's expression of it in His life, especially at Golgotha (The Skull/Calvary), or the place of His crucifixion.
The interesting thing about this "Agape" love was that Jesus didn't say that it was reserved for us humans to exhibit in heaven after leaving earth in death. He/Christ as well as His devoted Apostles over and over again in their many letters in the N.T. stressed that Agape love was the glue of the Christian life, and community, and also the mark of a true Christian, and the means at which the non-Christian world would be drawn to Christ through exposure to this community called, "Christ ones" or Christians.
This may seem like a very simplistic, and ordinary example of little import to many, but many years ago when we lived in the Pacific Northwest, while I was attending bible college, we lived in a little urban neighborhood in Vancouver, Wa.. We were experiencing a pretty powerful Winter Pacific rain storm with blustery winds and heavy rains on a particular day. I had just come home from my attendance at college over the border in Portland, Oregon, and was driving into my driveway, and noticed that the extreme gusty winds had blown most of the garbage cans all over the street and far down the street from each neighbor's house. It had been garbage pickup day that morning.
Anyway, it was pouring down rain, and I got out of my car and chased-down my garbage can and put it in a safe wind resistant place. I don't know why, but I thought, all my neighbors are going to come home and will not find their garbage cans by early evening, or will be running all over the place trying to find them, who knows where.
So eightballsidepocket decided, well, I'm home, I'll just spend some time chasing down my neighbor's garbage cans, and placing them in safe places at each house.
It took awhile, but I got it done, and went in the house and didn't think more of it. I didn't pat myself on the back, or anything. I just wanted to be helpful to my neighbors. I didn't care if anyone knew I did it or not.
Anyway, my immediate neighbor at the time had been searching along with his wife for a system of belief in God, and had numerous visits from Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. They had many visits and much of the doctrines of these religions was discussed with my neighbors.
Well, my little garbage can chase had not gone unnoticed by those neighbors. I never knew that both the husband and wife saw me do it and return their garbage can to their house.
Some time after that episode, I had an opportunity to meet my neighbor as we were both out mowing our respective lawns, and kind-of met at the property boundary lines of our lawns and stopped and introduced ourselves. My neighbor asked about me, and I told him about my attendance in bible college and interest in Christian ministry. I had no idea this neighbor and his wife were searching for God, or had a deep longing for faith in God. As it turned out, my neighbor really opened up to me about his desires in his life and even the Mormon and JW's visits they had been having in their search. I and my wife invited them over for a "get to know you" BBQ at our home next door, and from there we just talked a lot about religion, faith, the bible, raising kids, and all kinds of stuff of life.
There came a time when these folks literally asked my wife and I to help them become Christians. As it turned out, the two of them literally bowed their heads at our dinner table one night and gave their lives to Christ in such sincerety as I was asked to lead them in prayer.
My neighbor later said to me what was the catalyst of this whole thing that led up to them seeing Christianity in it's purest biblical form as the Truth or Way in their lives. It was that day when their "crazy" neighbor was chasing down all the neighbor's garbage cans, instead of getting out of the cold soaking rain, like any normal person in the neighborhood would have.
*******
That act on my part was of little sacrifice. Yet Agape love is not a feeling or emotion, but an act of doing onto another without expecting reciprocation back. It's acting according to your nature or the life that God has placed in your soul when you became a bonafide Christian. That life came in as a result of responding to, "grace" or unmerited love and favor, as all of us humans are without merit earning us favor with God. Not the goodie two shoes or the arch criminal. We have all fallen short of God's glory, and life, and we know it, or we are in sickly denial.
Agape love is big and little things. It's making dinner for your wife when she's sick, or changing a bed pan of an invalid, when you'd rather be somewhere else. It's playing catch with your son, when you'd rather watch Monday night football and have a Budweiser instead.
Agape love isn't doing something you don't want to do, but is doing something you know in your conscience is the thing to do, but might not agree with your emotions or feelings. The power of sin is ever present in the world and it works on Christians overtime, and is the yoke of the unknowing non-Christian 24 hours a day.
So as we all know, Jesus loves the World........That's obvious as we've all seen the John 3:16 signs at ball games and probably have heard it quoted numerous times. The world as a general rule isn't very loveable in our human perspective, yet Christ a fully human man, and God incarnate, loved the unloveable of society as well as those that didn't think they needed fixing ( Actually they were the sickest in their soul). It's that forgiving life of unmerited favor towards the unmerited..i.e. grace that is in every true Christian. Now whether or not every true Christian wants to exercise that life of Christ in them, which is also called the Holy Spirit, the Counselor, is up to the will of that individual Christian. The will can be referred to in simplistic terms as one's "chooser". I kind of like those simplistic terms. It does make it easier for me to make application of certain things in my life.
Anyway, 3:16 basically said that even our enemys are loved by God. How can this be? Well, God made our enemy as well as us. Our enemy was made in His image, yet is our threatening protagonist, or maybe a threat in some other way, or has been one who has hurt us verbally, or financially.
Jesus didn't say that we are to lay down our lives at the expense of defending our family with His call to love your enemy. Loving your enemy may involve praying for your nemesis, yet still having to defend your safety and those that depend on your umbrella of safety from that nemesis. To the world that does not have the Spirit of Christ, it is as foreign as oil mixing with water.
I've actually forgiven individuals who have hurt me in different ways, when I had done nothing to deserve the rejection or attack. I've been amazed at how the angst or hatred that I had inside me dissipated when I continued to force myself to pray for someone who had been downright mean to me. I can't explain the mechanics of the anger and revenge leaving, but it had to be Christ's life in me taking the "throne" position over good old eightball being the master and captain of what was right for his Christian life.
I've prayed about giving up possessions that were burdensome to afford, yet I had this strong attraction and need for them, and had to literally pray, and ask God to take the possession from me or make me willing to give it up. He has never failed to change my inner man or heart at some later point after praying those prayers, where I could sell or get rid of some prized possession without the slightest remorse or longing. It literally has blown me away!
Agape love is supernatural, and it is possible to exercise it in one's life on planet earth. It is only possible when one is willingly possessed by God in Christ's life to experience this, when one is at a point of realizing and actively giving one's life and "all" to God and Christ as Lord of one's life.
********
The true Christian life isn't an easy road. It's a hard road, but it's also one that the true Christian never would regret taking.
"Love Your Enemy." "Turn The Other Cheek." What Did Jesus Mean?
Turn The Other Cheek.
Why not? What possible desire would God have for you to hurt one of His children? None. It is bad enough you got hurt.
Erik:
From your post, I can see that you have an understanding that anwering a "wrong" with another "wrong", doesn't ever end a dispute or bring about peace or reconciliation.
If there is any possible chance for peace in a situation, someone or someone involved must take a first, brave step, involving a contrite/humble attitude.
I think that Jesus wanted the population of that era to ascend beyond the savage humanity that dictated behavioural norms of the time. For me, his message was all about love, forgiveness and redemption of the human spirit which may have been a direct reaction to living in times when human interaction and culture were peaking out from behind the iron age and was particularly beastial. So, in essence, I believe that he really did want his followers to turn the other cheak and appeal to the humanity of the enemy. If humans are all his creation then violent human interaction might be like a fight between siblings where he would know, ultimatly, that there is something deeper going on than what we fight over in the physical world. Now, I don't believe in such things but I can agree with the philosophy behind it. Beyond the bad examples of some christians I'd like to think that Jesus was the total avatar of benevolent intentions and would have been interested in a peaceful humanity regardless of individual uniform. Hence, the good sumaritan. I think he did want one to turn the other cheak and to forgive. Kinda like the idea to Pay It Forward for his ancient times.
I wonder if his message for humanity then, as we understand it from the bible, would differ from his message for humanity now, as there is certainly an ascention in culture and human interaction now from then.
his views would have been radical in the jewish world he lived in, but these views can be found in older religions like buddisum. Some even say jesus was a buddist in the lost years, but this is just an idea.
