"Love Your Enemy." "Turn The Other Cheek." What Did J.C. Mean?

[Eightball]

oh the mellowdrama..




it's funny how we never see secular america having to tell the AMISH to stop pushing their dogma onto people. Funnier still, we just don't see the AMISH complain about being picked on by big bad evil non believers. In fact, the AMISH live and let live.

Certainly, Jerry Fallwell and the Microsoft Preacher above don't fall into that realm of religious tolerance. If you choose to be a christian then good for you. I hope that works out for you. It's hardly "rubs like sand paper against unsaved man's life/agenda" until the alter jockey of the day comes along and starts rationalizing aggression in the name of jesus. Again, Jesus took his word to the whores without having to use ceasar to eliminate whores altogether. I wonder if there is a lesson here besides getting some quivering lip action on.

Interesting that you mention the Amish. They may live life outwardly in biblical ways, but God looks at the heart of man.

Out of the heart of man comes actions that reveal that soul or heart condition.

Whether a person is legalistically following biblical directives or lives by the golden rule of trying to not have any impact on anyone but themselves throughout their lives is not the indicator of salvation from God.

Surprisingly, I met a Kenyan gentleman that is a very strong, biblical Christian, and his missionary work is with the Amish, in, you guessed, the U.S.A./Pennsylvania and area.

We had a very long discussion about his missions work, and he revealed some very surprising things about the Amish people. In so many ways, they are extremely bible ignorant. Not saying it in a derogatory way, but they live a live of gentleness, and communal work in their community, with support for one another, with great work ethics, yet they have very little biblical knowledge.

This missionary, has been accepted in the Amish community with open arms, as these folks are very "color blind", but there aren't very many of them that are actual born again Christians as Jesus revealed in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and of course the Epistles of Paul, James, John, Peter, Jude, etc...

Yes, one can be peace loving, and charitable, and still not have salvation, as it is not determinate on behavior or works, but initially by a transaction of faith or belief in Christ as Savior and Lord of one's life.

Back in the bible days, there was young man that came to Jesus and told Him that He wanted to be His follower. Jesus said, asked this young man if he was obedient to God's commandments, and the young man said, "yes". Then Jesus said one more thing. "Go sell all your possessions and then come follow Me.". The young man walked away down-hearted and sad.

Why? Cause this young fellow outwardly was a wonderful, friendly guy. Probably would throw his coat over a mud puddle for a little old lady crossing a rainy street if he lived in our present age. Yet he lacked what was most important. The inner change of nature wrought by God through the faith transaction that allows a man/woman to be born again to a new life. He was willing to live the life, but was unwilling to give his life.

Self, can be ugly and can counterfeit itself into a sweet smelling rose, but it's still just dung to God, cause it gets in the way of man having a total one on one with his Creator.

Amish are people.......like all of us. They have chosen a lifestyle that doesn't make waves in society, therefore, society assumes they are the perfect picture of Godly life. Society has defined the parameters of Godly life as being P.C., non-discerning towards others, and basically little "blips" in human history.

Jesus said that He came for the sick, not the well. That was tongue and cheek on His part, as we are all sick. A portion of humanity knows that they are sick to various degrees, a larger portion denys it totally, and intellectualizes their spiritual state, and lot in life, as a means of deflecting what they don't want to ponder.

Give a man with an I.Q. of 90, gobs of Godly wisdom, and he's miles ahead of the man with a 180 I.Q. and no Godly wisdom. It's not unlike the smartest man in the world jumping out of the doomed airplane thinking he has the second to last parachute that he stole from a poor Boy Scout. All is left is this Boy Scout and a minister. The minister tells the Boy Scout to take his parachute, as he is ready to die, because he is at peace with God and knows he has eternal life. The Boy Scout, tells the minister to not to worry. There are still two parachutes left, because the smartest man in the world jumped out of the plane with the boy's backpack on. I probably skewed this joke that's been around for years, but I think some will get the drift of it.

We can be so smart that we can actually delude ourselves into thinking that we have all the answers. Pride is an insidious thing that preys on the intelligent more often than those that know their true spiritual and mental lot in life.

 

[Kid Pickle]

oh the mellowdrama..




it's funny how we never see secular america having to tell the AMISH to stop pushing their dogma onto people. Funnier still, we just don't see the AMISH complain about being picked on by big bad evil non believers. In fact, the AMISH live and let live.

Certainly, Jerry Fallwell and the Microsoft Preacher above don't fall into that realm of religious tolerance. If you choose to be a christian then good for you. I hope that works out for you. It's hardly "rubs like sand paper against unsaved man's life/agenda" until the alter jockey of the day comes along and starts rationalizing aggression in the name of jesus. Again, Jesus took his word to the whores without having to use ceasar to eliminate whores altogether. I wonder if there is a lesson here besides getting some quivering lip action on.

Some would argue that the Amish are violating Jesus' commandment in Mark 16:14 to "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." It is not a biblical perogative to keep our mouths shut and leave people alone. I think we need to be more effective in doing so, many dilute the effectiveness of the gospel by just trying to interject it into every conversation without tact or direct application.

As I see it, a loving life is one of creating relationships with unsaved people and showing love first with deeds and wisdom. Once relationships are established, then the gospel message can be interjected as it personally applies to the dying person. If I just walk into a bar and say to some guy at the bar with a stack of shot glasses in front of him, "You know, Jesus loves you," he will probably tell me to do something that is physically impossible to do. If I strike up a conversation with him and truly listen to him and his troubles, maybe I can make a connection with him that may at some time lead to a presentation of the gospel. Or not. Maybe I can just help him have a more positive attitude. I find it is not good to force these things. It is easy for Christians to forget that we need to genuinely care for people, not just try to tell them Jesus is the answer to all their problems. He is, but it takes a while for people to see that they have problems that separate them from God in the first place, if they believe in God at all.

The gospel is offensive and irritating to the decieved. They are proud and arrogant and resistant to the idea that they are in big trouble. I know I was for many years, conjuring new excuses at every turn. Now I am very glad that the Jesus freaks irritated me with their irrational spookery. Eventually, I developed the open mind necessary to see it their way. Now, I have a life of purpose-abundant, fearless, and ETERNAL. Praise the Lord!

 

[jillian]

The gospel is offensive and irritating to the decieved. They are proud and arrogant and resistant to the idea that they are in big trouble. I know I was for many years, conjuring new excuses at every turn. Now I am very glad that the Jesus freaks irritated me with their irrational spookery. Eventually, I developed the open mind necessary to see it their way. Now, I have a life of purpose-abundant, fearless, and ETERNAL. Praise the Lord!

It is that kind of arrogance and disrespect that turns so many of us off to you guys. It has nothing to do with the "gospel [being] offensive and irritating to the deceived". I believe my beliefs are correct as well. Your arrogance in thinking you need to shove yours down my throat to "save" me? You can keep those beliefs to yourself unless I ask you to share them with me.

Thanks.

 

[Annie]

It is that kind of arrogance and disrespect that turns so many of us off to you guys. It has nothing to do with the "gospel [being] offensive and irritating to the deceived". I believe my beliefs are correct as well. Your arrogance in thinking you need to shove yours down my throat to "save" me? You can keep those beliefs to yourself unless I ask you to share them with me.

Thanks.

Yet you brush off threads/topics like this?

http://usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=624780#post624780

 

[jillian]

Yet you brush off threads/topics like this?

http://usmessageboard.com/showthread.php?p=624780#post624780

I find talking about Ron Paul fairly uninteresting given that he's going to do nothing but be a spoiler if he runs as a third party candidate.

 

[Annie]

I find talking about Ron Paul fairly uninteresting given that he's going to do nothing but be a spoiler if he runs as a third party candidate.

Actually I find Ron Paul very interesting as even prior to WWII there was not a party that was anti-semitic, yet her we are. Supposedly his campaign raised 4.2m from where? Mind you, in one day.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Interesting that you mention the Amish. They may live life outwardly in biblical ways, but God looks at the heart of man.

Out of the heart of man comes actions that reveal that soul or heart condition.

Whether a person is legalistically following biblical directives or lives by the golden rule of trying to not have any impact on anyone but themselves throughout their lives is not the indicator of salvation from God.

Surprisingly, I met a Kenyan gentleman that is a very strong, biblical Christian, and his missionary work is with the Amish, in, you guessed, the U.S.A./Pennsylvania and area.

We had a very long discussion about his missions work, and he revealed some very surprising things about the Amish people. In so many ways, they are extremely bible ignorant. Not saying it in a derogatory way, but they live a live of gentleness, and communal work in their community, with support for one another, with great work ethics, yet they have very little biblical knowledge.

This missionary, has been accepted in the Amish community with open arms, as these folks are very "color blind", but there aren't very many of them that are actual born again Christians as Jesus revealed in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and of course the Epistles of Paul, James, John, Peter, Jude, etc...

Yes, one can be peace loving, and charitable, and still not have salvation, as it is not determinate on behavior or works, but initially by a transaction of faith or belief in Christ as Savior and Lord of one's life.

Back in the bible days, there was young man that came to Jesus and told Him that He wanted to be His follower. Jesus said, asked this young man if he was obedient to God's commandments, and the young man said, "yes". Then Jesus said one more thing. "Go sell all your possessions and then come follow Me.". The young man walked away down-hearted and sad.

Why? Cause this young fellow outwardly was a wonderful, friendly guy. Probably would throw his coat over a mud puddle for a little old lady crossing a rainy street if he lived in our present age. Yet he lacked what was most important. The inner change of nature wrought by God through the faith transaction that allows a man/woman to be born again to a new life. He was willing to live the life, but was unwilling to give his life.

Self, can be ugly and can counterfeit itself into a sweet smelling rose, but it's still just dung to God, cause it gets in the way of man having a total one on one with his Creator.

Amish are people.......like all of us. They have chosen a lifestyle that doesn't make waves in society, therefore, society assumes they are the perfect picture of Godly life. Society has defined the parameters of Godly life as being P.C., non-discerning towards others, and basically little "blips" in human history.

Jesus said that He came for the sick, not the well. That was tongue and cheek on His part, as we are all sick. A portion of humanity knows that they are sick to various degrees, a larger portion denys it totally, and intellectualizes their spiritual state, and lot in life, as a means of deflecting what they don't want to ponder.

Give a man with an I.Q. of 90, gobs of Godly wisdom, and he's miles ahead of the man with a 180 I.Q. and no Godly wisdom. It's not unlike the smartest man in the world jumping out of the doomed airplane thinking he has the second to last parachute that he stole from a poor Boy Scout. All is left is this Boy Scout and a minister. The minister tells the Boy Scout to take his parachute, as he is ready to die, because he is at peace with God and knows he has eternal life. The Boy Scout, tells the minister to not to worry. There are still two parachutes left, because the smartest man in the world jumped out of the plane with the boy's backpack on. I probably skewed this joke that's been around for years, but I think some will get the drift of it.

We can be so smart that we can actually delude ourselves into thinking that we have all the answers. Pride is an insidious thing that preys on the intelligent more often than those that know their true spiritual and mental lot in life.

Translation:

“In contrast to sacred, “saved” Me, these fucking Sauerkraut slurping Kraut crackers are up spiritual Shit Creek without a theological paddle”

“These Swabian scum; the absolute Scheissmeisters of all the Protestant sects, don’t even rate a mention in my consanguine 20 member congregation of Christ the Money Changer up in the hills above Hendersonville, NC!”

“However if they, and the rest of the evil world, would only listen to Jewsarse’s co-deity, Blessed Me, they too could spend eternity with Me…and god, working on a new Creation to replace the old one, by now burning in Hell.” “So as vomitously vain turds like Me - nonentities sorely in need of someone, ANYTHING to lord it over - will still feel superior to something.”

If Vladimir Ilyich Christ ever existed, he would condemn you to eternal torture for your mindboggling superciliousness and for blasphemously presuming to speak for him, Date Balls.

Your simian head is so far up your own nasty fucking Fundie fundament, all you can see is false teeth.

 

[Kid Pickle]

It is that kind of arrogance and disrespect that turns so many of us off to you guys. It has nothing to do with the "gospel [being] offensive and irritating to the deceived". I believe my beliefs are correct as well. Your arrogance in thinking you need to shove yours down my throat to "save" me? You can keep those beliefs to yourself unless I ask you to share them with me.

Thanks.

Thank you, dear jillian, for illustrating my point.

Isn't the point of forums such as this expressing beliefs whether or not anyone has asked for them? Aren't we all searching for truth? Is it not important to consider what another is saying, weighing it objectively to determine whether it has value?

I express my beliefs and you dismiss them out of hand without addressing any points with an adequate rebuttal, going so far as to tell me to shut up. And I do not recall shoving anything down anyone's throat.

Is that open-mindedness?

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Interesting that you mention the Amish. They may live life outwardly in biblical ways, but God looks at the heart of man.

Out of the heart of man comes actions that reveal that soul or heart condition.

Whether a person is legalistically following biblical directives or lives by the golden rule of trying to not have any impact on anyone but themselves throughout their lives is not the indicator of salvation from God.

Surprisingly, I met a Kenyan gentleman that is a very strong, biblical Christian, and his missionary work is with the Amish, in, you guessed, the U.S.A./Pennsylvania and area.

We had a very long discussion about his missions work, and he revealed some very surprising things about the Amish people. In so many ways, they are extremely bible ignorant. Not saying it in a derogatory way, but they live a live of gentleness, and communal work in their community, with support for one another, with great work ethics, yet they have very little biblical knowledge.

This missionary, has been accepted in the Amish community with open arms, as these folks are very "color blind", but there aren't very many of them that are actual born again Christians as Jesus revealed in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and of course the Epistles of Paul, James, John, Peter, Jude, etc...

Yes, one can be peace loving, and charitable, and still not have salvation, as it is not determinate on behavior or works, but initially by a transaction of faith or belief in Christ as Savior and Lord of one's life.

Back in the bible days, there was young man that came to Jesus and told Him that He wanted to be His follower. Jesus said, asked this young man if he was obedient to God's commandments, and the young man said, "yes". Then Jesus said one more thing. "Go sell all your possessions and then come follow Me.". The young man walked away down-hearted and sad.

Why? Cause this young fellow outwardly was a wonderful, friendly guy. Probably would throw his coat over a mud puddle for a little old lady crossing a rainy street if he lived in our present age. Yet he lacked what was most important. The inner change of nature wrought by God through the faith transaction that allows a man/woman to be born again to a new life. He was willing to live the life, but was unwilling to give his life.

Self, can be ugly and can counterfeit itself into a sweet smelling rose, but it's still just dung to God, cause it gets in the way of man having a total one on one with his Creator.

Amish are people.......like all of us. They have chosen a lifestyle that doesn't make waves in society, therefore, society assumes they are the perfect picture of Godly life. Society has defined the parameters of Godly life as being P.C., non-discerning towards others, and basically little "blips" in human history.

Jesus said that He came for the sick, not the well. That was tongue and cheek on His part, as we are all sick. A portion of humanity knows that they are sick to various degrees, a larger portion denys it totally, and intellectualizes their spiritual state, and lot in life, as a means of deflecting what they don't want to ponder.

Give a man with an I.Q. of 90, gobs of Godly wisdom, and he's miles ahead of the man with a 180 I.Q. and no Godly wisdom. It's not unlike the smartest man in the world jumping out of the doomed airplane thinking he has the second to last parachute that he stole from a poor Boy Scout. All is left is this Boy Scout and a minister. The minister tells the Boy Scout to take his parachute, as he is ready to die, because he is at peace with God and knows he has eternal life. The Boy Scout, tells the minister to not to worry. There are still two parachutes left, because the smartest man in the world jumped out of the plane with the boy's backpack on. I probably skewed this joke that's been around for years, but I think some will get the drift of it.

We can be so smart that we can actually delude ourselves into thinking that we have all the answers. Pride is an insidious thing that preys on the intelligent more often than those that know their true spiritual and mental lot in life.

The patently racist hypocrite said:

The inner change of nature wrought by God through the faith transaction that allows a man/woman to be born again to a new life

- apparently ‘cause God fucked up in the first place by making inferior goods!

If God was Ford, the Feds would force him to do an all model recall and replace the faulty part(s) free of charge!

 

[Chips Rafferty]

Thank you, dear jillian, for illustrating my point.

Isn't the point of forums such as this expressing beliefs whether or not anyone has asked for them? Aren't we all searching for truth? Is it not important to consider what another is saying, weighing it objectively to determine whether it has value?

I express my beliefs and you dismiss them out of hand without addressing any points with an adequate rebuttal, going so far as to tell me to shut up. And I do not recall shoving anything down anyone's throat.

Is that open-mindedness?

The Dill Pickle said:

Aren't we all searching for truth?

Who is the "we" kid?

If you are true "Christian," you have stopped searching and now act as God's co-regent and guide (...what was that proverb about "stumbling into a pit"?) to "salvation" for satanic untermensch.

 

[jillian]

Thank you, dear jillian, for illustrating my point.

Isn't the point of forums such as this expressing beliefs whether or not anyone has asked for them? Aren't we all searching for truth? Is it not important to consider what another is saying, weighing it objectively to determine whether it has value?

I express my beliefs and you dismiss them out of hand without addressing any points with an adequate rebuttal, going so far as to tell me to shut up. And I do not recall shoving anything down anyone's throat.

Is that open-mindedness?

Well, "kid", I have no problem with your beliefs. You are free to hold any that give you comfort. Nor was I addressing specifically your activities on this site. I strongly believe, however, that no one has the right to tell anyone else what they should believe unless asked.

When I hear anyone talk about how only they can be "saved" and how everyone else is going to hell, I don't see a huge difference between the Christians and Muslims who hold that type of view. And no, I don't want either belief system shoved down my throat. I'm very comfortable with my beliefs.

And if you knew me, you'd know that I have nothing but respect for people who hold strong beliefs and truly "walk the walk". Like I said, it isn't about your beliefs... it's about trying to foist them on others.

 

[Shogun]

Interesting that you mention the Amish. They may live life outwardly in biblical ways, but God looks at the heart of man.

Out of the heart of man comes actions that reveal that soul or heart condition.

Whether a person is legalistically following biblical directives or lives by the golden rule of trying to not have any impact on anyone but themselves throughout their lives is not the indicator of salvation from God.

Surprisingly, I met a Kenyan gentleman that is a very strong, biblical Christian, and his missionary work is with the Amish, in, you guessed, the U.S.A./Pennsylvania and area.

We had a very long discussion about his missions work, and he revealed some very surprising things about the Amish people. In so many ways, they are extremely bible ignorant. Not saying it in a derogatory way, but they live a live of gentleness, and communal work in their community, with support for one another, with great work ethics, yet they have very little biblical knowledge.

This missionary, has been accepted in the Amish community with open arms, as these folks are very "color blind", but there aren't very many of them that are actual born again Christians as Jesus revealed in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and of course the Epistles of Paul, James, John, Peter, Jude, etc...

Yes, one can be peace loving, and charitable, and still not have salvation, as it is not determinate on behavior or works, but initially by a transaction of faith or belief in Christ as Savior and Lord of one's life.

Back in the bible days, there was young man that came to Jesus and told Him that He wanted to be His follower. Jesus said, asked this young man if he was obedient to God's commandments, and the young man said, "yes". Then Jesus said one more thing. "Go sell all your possessions and then come follow Me.". The young man walked away down-hearted and sad.

Why? Cause this young fellow outwardly was a wonderful, friendly guy. Probably would throw his coat over a mud puddle for a little old lady crossing a rainy street if he lived in our present age. Yet he lacked what was most important. The inner change of nature wrought by God through the faith transaction that allows a man/woman to be born again to a new life. He was willing to live the life, but was unwilling to give his life.

Self, can be ugly and can counterfeit itself into a sweet smelling rose, but it's still just dung to God, cause it gets in the way of man having a total one on one with his Creator.

Amish are people.......like all of us. They have chosen a lifestyle that doesn't make waves in society, therefore, society assumes they are the perfect picture of Godly life. Society has defined the parameters of Godly life as being P.C., non-discerning towards others, and basically little "blips" in human history.

Jesus said that He came for the sick, not the well. That was tongue and cheek on His part, as we are all sick. A portion of humanity knows that they are sick to various degrees, a larger portion denys it totally, and intellectualizes their spiritual state, and lot in life, as a means of deflecting what they don't want to ponder.

Give a man with an I.Q. of 90, gobs of Godly wisdom, and he's miles ahead of the man with a 180 I.Q. and no Godly wisdom. It's not unlike the smartest man in the world jumping out of the doomed airplane thinking he has the second to last parachute that he stole from a poor Boy Scout. All is left is this Boy Scout and a minister. The minister tells the Boy Scout to take his parachute, as he is ready to die, because he is at peace with God and knows he has eternal life. The Boy Scout, tells the minister to not to worry. There are still two parachutes left, because the smartest man in the world jumped out of the plane with the boy's backpack on. I probably skewed this joke that's been around for years, but I think some will get the drift of it.

We can be so smart that we can actually delude ourselves into thinking that we have all the answers. Pride is an insidious thing that preys on the intelligent more often than those that know their true spiritual and mental lot in life.

Figures... mention a different flavor of christianity and what comes back? shit talking against that different flavour of christianity. Lovely. You, sir, are a testement to the increase of athiesm.

Indeed, it's hilarious that you readily discount the Amish because they are not born again.. As if being born again is any uniform christian standard. Im sure the catholics might have something to say about that on your left while the MORE charismatic denominations scoff at your watered down version of salvation. But, it's the AMISH that suck becuase they don't make waves?






ps... christian "godly wisdom" /= intellegence. sorry.

 

[Shogun]

Some would argue that the Amish are violating Jesus' commandment in Mark 16:14 to "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." It is not a biblical perogative to keep our mouths shut and leave people alone. I think we need to be more effective in doing so, many dilute the effectiveness of the gospel by just trying to interject it into every conversation without tact or direct application.

As I see it, a loving life is one of creating relationships with unsaved people and showing love first with deeds and wisdom. Once relationships are established, then the gospel message can be interjected as it personally applies to the dying person. If I just walk into a bar and say to some guy at the bar with a stack of shot glasses in front of him, "You know, Jesus loves you," he will probably tell me to do something that is physically impossible to do. If I strike up a conversation with him and truly listen to him and his troubles, maybe I can make a connection with him that may at some time lead to a presentation of the gospel. Or not. Maybe I can just help him have a more positive attitude. I find it is not good to force these things. It is easy for Christians to forget that we need to genuinely care for people, not just try to tell them Jesus is the answer to all their problems. He is, but it takes a while for people to see that they have problems that separate them from God in the first place, if they believe in God at all.

The gospel is offensive and irritating to the decieved. They are proud and arrogant and resistant to the idea that they are in big trouble. I know I was for many years, conjuring new excuses at every turn. Now I am very glad that the Jesus freaks irritated me with their irrational spookery. Eventually, I developed the open mind necessary to see it their way. Now, I have a life of purpose-abundant, fearless, and ETERNAL. Praise the Lord!

Yup... every denomination sure does have an opinion about the interpretations of every other denomination... I'm sure they think you have it wrong too. but why think about that when there are no amish around to point a finger back atcha?

I have very close friends who are christians with whome I've had rounds and rounds of debate with concerning apologetics, the bible and christianity in general. There ARE some christians out there with a genuine desire to spread the word in a benign and respectful way. I;ve known christians with hearts of gold who are great examples of what I accept jebus meant in the NT. However, there are also a plethora of silly bastards, LKE THE PREACHER RAILING AGAINST MICROSOFT ABOVE, who are pharisee bastards using the lords name in vane to find their (fame) personal identity in christian culture. The former are all to aware of the falability of THEIR beliefs when compared to the many other denominations. This is where their FAITH becomes relevant. The ladder, tend to insist that we all believe the same thing because, deep down, they are as charlatans as the next snake oil preacherman. the faux empathy and self righteous condemnation of that which is different, again, is like a neon hotel vacancy sign right outside the window when it comes to Mitt Romney. It was almost TOO predictable.

It's not the gospel that is annoying and irritating to non-christians. Believe that, pal. If anything, your witness works as well as batman's shark repellent.

 

[Eightball]

Figures... mention a different flavor of christianity and what comes back? shit talking against that different flavour of christianity. Lovely. You, sir, are a testement to the increase of athiesm.

Indeed, it's hilarious that you readily discount the Amish because they are not born again.. As if being born again is any uniform christian standard. Im sure the catholics might have something to say about that on your left while the MORE charismatic denominations scoff at your watered down version of salvation. But, it's the AMISH that suck becuase they don't make waves?






ps... christian "godly wisdom" /= intellegence. sorry.

It's intrigueing and sad all at the same time.

Intrigueing:
Because there are belief systems in the world that are not inviting someone to church, or loving their enemy, or running rescue missions; serving thousands of daily meals, but see their belief system as a legal mandate by god to physically do harm to others who don't bend a knee to their belief/god.

Yet, good old biblical Christianity is "hammered" as though it's adherents get television time to behead infidels, and rattle sabres of war to the non-conforming world.

What causes this reaction to scripture. Did "eightball" make up the word, "born again"? Did eightball make up John 3:16? Hardly. Non-Christian man's fight isn't with anyone, but Christ/God.

You want Christ in your nice, little P.C. box? Go ahead and put Him in it. Think it changes reality? Hardly. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Want to use the poor, gentle Amish as a shield or debate defense? Go ahead. God loves the Amish, just like He loves you. You can shake a verbal fist at eightball or whoever that mentions biblical messages, or even accuse eightball or others of twisting the scripture, but God expects every man/woman to check for themselves. Eightball must go back to scripture often to make sure he's not passing on a message both in action, verbally to anyone that goes against the gospel. Eightball is fallible, and doesn't like to be wrong, but eightball can and will be wrong in past, present and future, but hopes and prays that he will get back on path and will accept correction.

Was the scripture designed to be interpretted diametrically different to any or all human beings? Hardly. Does man try to "soft ball" the impact of scripture to assuage his/her's own sick soul condition? Most assuredly. It hurts to be wrong. It hurts all of us. Being right is much more comfortable than being wrong, and knowing it. "Owning it" is very uncomfortable, but it's end product is a contrite and humble heart, that is readily open to instruction. We are not talking about the end product of brainwashing as in cultic tactics either. Just plain old openess to being wrong or skewed in thought, and willing to accept that possibility is a great step in the human soul.

Intriguing yes, surprising no. Christ said, not eightball, that there would be "mockers" by the myriads, and if one is so enlightened above those that expound Christian "talk/messages" allegedly obtuse, then maybe those enlightened ones should do as the Bereans did, and study the scripture for themselves? Maybe they aren't obtuse messages?

The Apostle Paul who wrote the books of Corinthians, Philippians, Galatians, Ephesians, Titus, Timothy, Colossians, Thessalonians, and possibly Hebrews to the various churches of Asia Minor to teach, correct, discipline and encourage in their fledgling states, commended all who "tested" all that he wrote or verbally said in light of existing O.T. scriptures of their day.

If I am misinterpretting Christian doctrine, then put me to the test or anyone who espouses anything about Christ and show that "we or me" are wrong, and that biblical Christianity is not what we express here or elsewhere.

I invite correction, that is astute, logical, well reasoned. I also know that I am fallible, and do not know all the answers.

Most of all, I invite correction that is respectful, as I have shown to all others on this board during my years here. I would especially expect a moderator of this esteemed board to reflect the spirit of debate in a manner that reflects admiration for diverse thoughts and not repugnance that disrespects a members system of belief. That isn't hamstringing free speech, but only keeping it in the vain of friendly discourse, seasoned with mutual respect.

A religious board or section of a forum needs to be able to debate issues of belief in the spirit of love, and give and take, without personalizing or disrespecting a particular member or members because they belong or espouse a particular religion. Exceptions would be "hate mongering" as a religion, or belief systems that encourage physical harm, anti-social, or anti-cultural behavior that provokes or encourages anarchy, leading to personal, life endangering. That is something that Jesus never did or espoused, nor should it be tolerated by anyone who sees, hears, or reads statements by anyone claiming to represent biblical Christianity.

The alleged Christianity of the Crusades was a counterfeit of biblical Christianity, and shouldn't even be considered Christianity at all. It isn't unlike Hitler's Third Reich (thousand year reign/Revelations) that took a little here and there from the bible and built a monumental, unGodly, tragic era in human history.

Christ did bring a message that He was indeed God in the flesh; that if you observed, heard, Him, you would have a glimpse of what God-your-Creator, was like in nature. Christ said, "I and the Father are One". Not like Jesus is one in agreement, but one in nature, and being in totality. Trully a mystery for man's finite mind, thus the many debates on the Trinity. It indeed is not Polytheism, but that's for another time or thread in the religion forum.

Christ calmly slept on one of the boats of His disciples as they crossed the Sea of Galilee, when a violent storm arose. Upon awakening by His frightened, followers, who feared drowning, He merely told the sea, "Be still", and the sea immediately calmed. His followers marveled that this Man could, by His mere word, order creation to obey or submit. It was at this time that little light bulbs started to pop "on" in their heads that this Man was not a mere teacher or prophet, but much more. Surely the past miracles of healing, would have been convincing, but the very nature of man then and now precluded any early assumptions of Christs true diety. Otherwise we wouldn't be debating on this thread.

Actually, we who have been exposed to the bible in the last several centurys, are without excuse. We have greater opportunity to believe, than those 2,000 years ago. We have the accumulated works of Christ and His disciples contained within a 66 book, book. A book that hasn't changed in intent, or grammatical verbage for eons as most religious books do in a matter of a hundred years of being re-scribed hand to hand. The 100+ year old Book of Mormon has gone through thousands of changes since the early 1800's. The bible has been accused of being corrupted because of its age, yet the 1,900+ year old Dead Sea scrolls had a complet text of the O.T. book of Isaiah, and it was "word for word" identical to the present day bible's rendition of Isaiah. Only small verbage differences were found, but the total message or intent of the scripture was totally, 100% the same. Remember that Isaiah as well as all the books were hand scribed thousands of times, yet with the great chance of human error or fallibility easily changing scripture in over 2,000 years, it didn't occur. I will call it supernatural, skeptics will take the broad, easy street, and call it, rolling a seven ten times in a row. Just a low odds chance that worked. I'll stick to God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, as my conclusion. If God wants to communicate with humanity, He will also protect His means of commnication from being corrupted. If He/God, can't keep His Word from being changed, then He is most indeed a fallible, weak, Creator, and then the human race is back to flailing in the ice cold waters around the Titanic.

Sadly:

This is the tough part.

Sad, because, we all by our human natures, don't like pain. If we do, we are really weird.

There is however good pain, and bad pain. There is the bad pain of a sliver entering a finger. There is however the good pain of the tweezers pulling the sliver out of the finger in one piece. So the last pain is often followed with relief. So good pain hurts too, but it also is the harbinger of "good".

So goes the gospel of Christ. It is a painful sliver to the unsaved, soul. It reminds and reacts to the human soul like a sliver entering tender, nerve-filled flesh. It breaks apart tissue, and irritates. It confounds the human soul, as it asks or mandates against natural human nature.

Man is born, dead; according to the bible. All of us are born in that state. We come to an age of reasoning and decision about our course of life, and we are finally at that point of "responsibility" or "accountability" before our Maker. What is life? Why am I here? What, why, who, me, creation, existence, evil, goodness, peace, goals, jobs, marriage, love, children, security, death, birth, suffering, disease,.............What is all of this? There has to be a reason for it all. It couldn't possibly be the result of rising from primordial soup. If that's all it is, then why the dreams, ambitions, passion, arts, philosophy, music, etc. Are we just Apes that jumped from finger painting to the latter mentioned attributes? It is indeed a great chasm that was jumped.

Something has to make sense of all of this.

When man/woman comes to this point in their life, they are on the threshold of honestly seeking meaning. With that attitude in place, their Creator can finally respond in kind, with a sometimes subtle, and sometimes overt calling to their soul. Things that seemed mundane start to have meaning. Little things once are now important, and can be perceived as stepping stones towards something bigger than oneself.

The sadness, is that the very answers lie in a mere book of a few pages that contain enough information and knowledge both of man's travails in seeking God, and God's endeavors to communicate (God's travails/heartache) with His creation to answer all the most important questions needed to have restoration with one's Creator.

Intellect is good. Man has the capacity to ponder, to will, to express, to reason, to act, to emotionally enhance, in such unique ways above all of creation. Yet with that wonderful quality, is the capacity to say no, to a preponderance of evidence that demands an honest verdict.

Notice that not once in the bible does God force man to believe, but God does allow circumstances to influence man's decisions in ways that should "push" or encourage man to realize or see God's ways over man's answers that circumvent divine intervention.

God does not take a sword to the throat of the unbeliever through His human instruments and exact a threat of believe or die. He simply said in the Great Commission in Matthew, "Go out to the utter most parts of the world" and tell about Me. That gospel(good news) is simply the life, the crucifixion, the burial, and the ressurrection of Christ, the Messiah to the Jews, and Jesus the Saviour of mankind to the gentiles. It's not complex, yet it has created debate over the last 20 centuries, that no other system of belief has endured or spawned.

For those that so abhor the mention of "Christ", "born again" "salvation", "sinner", "sins", "Lordship", "repentance", etc... Take a big dare, and crack open that book with all the dust on it's cover that sits in a lonely part of your abode, or still sits in a book store somewhere waiting for your purchase. Try your best to open it's pages to the New Testament that starts with the advent of Christ's life on planet earth and ends at His ripe old age of 33 earthbound years.

Try to let the bible talk to you, and see if it says to you a different message than your pre-conceived message from whomever, whoever, or even yourself has compiled in your vast storage bank of brain cells over the years.

Try to eliminate the dysfunctional life of the past in the poor or whatever parental modeling, the hurts of people that you trusted, the failures of goals in life, the mundane and the vivid experiences, that have created a "model" of God within your mind. Let the bible reveal God's side of His nature, or the bible's model of God. It will most likely hit with "logger heads" against your manmade model of God, that is an acummulation of experiences over years of fighting the good fight of survival on this terrestrial ball in your own intellectual strength.

It's takes a brave soul, who's willing to see another side, and raise one's hands in surrender, and lay down one's weapons of combat, and accept that one has fought a good fight, but a false fight.

I eightball, was a staunch intellectual, on the other side from Christianity. I have accumulated many years of higher learning and have three degrees in the of which two are in the sciences.......Geology being one of them, yet there was still an empty wondering in my soul that wasn't being quenched. How many here can nod in the affirmative? How many here are willing to face their demons, and not put up the old defense, and fight like a drowning man without a lifesaver?

Even Paul of the bible thought He was doing God's work, rounding up Christians and bringing them back to Jerusalem for trial ( imprisonment and death). He even stood by and encouraged the stoning death of many of Jesus's followers, giving hearty support.

Yet, one day, Paul while on his ferverish pursuit of Christians was blinded by a heavenly light in the desert, and fell from his horse. He and only he heard a voice speak to him, "Paul, why do you pursue me". Paul asked who "He" was. "He" said, "Jesus". On that day, Paul was a changed man. He gave up the fight, and surrendered to the true captain of his life. From thence onward, Paul endured beating and hardships beyond our imaginations nowadays. These were exacted upon him by the very ones that he earlier gave support to in their pursuit of Christians.

Who, here is willing to open that book and try their darndest to read the first pages of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, without entertaining preconceived thoughts of who God, Christ, or Christianity is or ought to be?

Letting down ones guard is akin to letting down one's preconceived and often skewed ideas. It's not unlike being afraid of the dark when a child. There comes a time in life when we must pass from child to adult, not in physical nature, but in soul. The dark needs light to reveal it's pit-falls. A little truth goes a long way to revealing what is in the dark, and leading a man/woman on a straight and safe path.

 

[Shogun]

If you can't dazzle em with brilliance then baffle em, eh buddy?


You can save your sermon for those who care about your particular opinion on dogma. But, let me poke through a couple gems..


Because there are belief systems in the world that are not inviting someone to church, or loving their enemy, or running rescue missions; serving thousands of daily meals, but see their belief system as a legal mandate by god to physically do harm to others who don't bend a knee to their belief/god.
Yet, good old biblical Christianity is "hammered" as though it's adherents get television time to behead infidels, and rattle sabres of war to the non-conforming world.

So, muslims suck because they are violent, eh? Way to generalize. Certainly, you are quite the ambassador of christian tolerance. Funny, you can spread on the "poor christian" routine and pretend that christianity is all benevolent.... but who did YOU support to invade iraq in the last half a decade? Live by the sword only works against muslims? figures. pharisee christians never seem to get that their own shit stinks too. Funny, the vocabulary of the christian above, when speaking to MS about their gay friendly policies sure do reinforce the benevolent christian facade, doesn't it?


You want Christ in your nice, little P.C. box? Go ahead and put Him in it. Think it changes reality? Hardly. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

yea, i'll remember that while knowing that your method of adherence to dogma is laughably different than observations even a hundred years ago. Your dogma is hardly static. Your opinion regarding interpretation certainly isn't the standard by which the VARIOUS denominations claim the righteousness of their own version. Indeed, your beliefs would be quite foreign 200 years ago. If acknowledging this is "PC" then it's no wonder christianity had a hard time swallowing Copernicus.


Want to use the poor, gentle Amish as a shield or debate defense? Go ahead. God loves the Amish, just like He loves you. You can shake a verbal fist at eightball or whoever that mentions biblical messages, or even accuse eightball or others of twisting the scripture, but God expects every man/woman to check for themselves.

By all means.. if you want to spar using scripture instead of a mellowdramatic martyr routine then skin that smokestack. You might just figure out that non-belief does not imply ignorance of the bible. Sure, god loves the Amish too.. BUT, are you willing to admit, according to your denominational interpretation, that the Amish are headed for salvation just like you are despite your differences in belief? Acknowledging the range of biblical interpretation is hardly hiding behind the Amish. Using the Amish as an example of non-invasive christianity isn't a roman lion, daniel.



Was the scripture designed to be interpretted diametrically different to any or all human beings? Hardly.

Designed? who knows. Regardless, that IS the status of modern christianity. If you don't think so then have this conversation with a few catholics and southern baptists and let me know how often they agree on the dogma.


Does man try to "soft ball" the impact of scripture to assuage his/her's own sick soul condition? Most assuredly.

Oh I KNOW... next thing you know people might start bending jesus's message around their own opinions! thank the loward THAT never happens! I hope your irony detector is on.



Intriguing yes, surprising no. Christ said, not eightball, that there would be "mockers" by the myriads, and if one is so enlightened above those that expound Christian "talk/messages" allegedly obtuse, then maybe those enlightened ones should do as the Bereans did, and study the scripture for themselves? Maybe they aren't obtuse messages?


You assume that only christians have studied the bible.. Like I said.. if you want to use scripture instead of the martyr routine then do it. Your ego may tell you how enlightened you are... but your actions convey otherwise.


If I am misinterpretting Christian doctrine, then put me to the test or anyone who espouses anything about Christ and show that "we or me" are wrong, and that biblical Christianity is not what we express here or elsewhere.


Well that's easy. As soon as I get you talking about your version of trinity or baptism or salvation your fellows in other denominations can prove my point. Your particular flavour doesn't have a monopoly on interpretation. Again, sit down with some catholics, baptists and pentecostals and tell me how much they agree on.


Most of all, I invite correction that is respectful, as I have shown to all others on this board during my years here. I would especially expect a moderator of this esteemed board to reflect the spirit of debate in a manner that reflects admiration for diverse thoughts and not repugnance that disrespects a members system of belief. That isn't hamstringing free speech, but only keeping it in the vain of friendly discourse, seasoned with mutual respect.


Are you asking me to go easy on you because I am a mod? I would never use mod authority to keep you from saying what you want to say or acting in retribution if your post rubbed me the wrong way but, i guess, i'm not really clear on why my status should require soft debate. I have not stated that you are ignorant for believeing what you do, however, making the case for the range of christian interpretations - including that of the amsish - is hardly worth feeling picked on, eh? BUT, in an effort to keep you from feeling like I'm a big scary monster picking on you just say the word and I won't ask or make anymore difficult observations directly at you.


Exceptions would be "hate mongering" as a religion, or belief systems that encourage physical harm, anti-social, or anti-cultural behavior that provokes or encourages anarchy, leading to personal, life endangering.

oh well, as long as we subscribe to your opinions.... Way to narrow down the criteria, dude. I wonder how anti-social early christians were. provokes or encourages anarchy? You do realize why jebus was mocked as the king of the jews, right? Indeed, IM the one looking to PC up the dogma...



The alleged Christianity of the Crusades was a counterfeit of biblical Christianity, and shouldn't even be considered Christianity at all. It isn't unlike Hitler's Third Reich (thousand year reign/Revelations) that took a little here and there from the bible and built a monumental, unGodly, tragic era in human history.


uh, just like slave owning christians were never "real" christians, right? Nazi's were as comfortable in their beliefs as you are in yours. The crusades were validated then just as much as, if I were to take a wild guess, you are solidly in israels pocket. your opinion about their method of christianity probably owuld mean about as much to them as my athiest opinion means to you about yours. In fact, since you acknowledge a historic range of christian tennants I guess we can scrap the "same yesterday, today and tomorrow" rhetoric, yes?

If you want I can provide pics of nazi christians. Tragic? certainly. But no different, in application, than modern christians using the bible as a weapon in the issue du jour.

the FACT that many espoused christians have no problem using 9/11 as a springboard to confront muslims proves as much. turn the other cheek?


Actually, we who have been exposed to the bible

this is what i'm talking about. You assume that non-believiers have simply never been exposed to the bible. How pompous.


We have the accumulated works of Christ and His disciples contained within a 66 book, book. A book that hasn't changed in intent, or grammatical verbage for eons as most religious books do in a matter of a hundred years of being re-scribed hand to hand.


hehehe.. WHAT? that's not at all true. EONS? indeed, that king james was a long lived guy apparently. The NIV must freak you out! the bible is a conglomerate of what HUMANS thought were holy with many books that didn't make the cut. pretending otherwise won't make the KJV any less of a translation than we all know that it was. pretending that god personally edited the final draft won't make the decisions of men regarding what to add and what to leave out any less true. The updated parlance of the NIV sure as hell proves otherwise.

And thats not even counting the other material held sacred by OTHER christian denominations.

A book that hasn't changed in intent, or grammatical verbage

Only small verbage differences were found,




were hand scribed thousands of times, yet with the great chance of human error or fallibility easily changing scripture in over 2,000 years,


the bible is the only piece of lit to have been scribed word for word by scribes whose job it was to SCRIBE important works, eh? hehehehe.. ok, dude. You call it supernatural if you want.


If God wants to communicate with humanity, He will also protect His means of commnication from being corrupted.


THANKFULLY, that means of communication is uniformly interpreted with no variation of opinion regarding dogma!



So goes the gospel of Christ. It is a painful sliver to the unsaved, soul. It reminds and reacts to the human soul like a sliver entering tender, nerve-filled flesh. It breaks apart tissue, and irritates. It confounds the human soul, as it asks or mandates against natural human nature.


HAHA! yea, dude.. i'm aching over here! Ever think that perhaps it's not the message but the messenger? I'll say it again, if your example of pompous self righteousness is the testimony I'llbe glad to retain my free agent status.


Something has to make sense of all of this.


indeed, like how there MUST be a god in a chariot pulling the sun accross the sky...


Notice that not once in the bible does God force man to believe, but God does allow circumstances to influence man's decisions in ways that should "push" or encourage man to realize or see God's ways over man's answers that circumvent divine intervention.


and is it your opinion that the above gay hating preacher targeting MS is a gentle nudge or a forceful demand?


yet it has created debate over the last 20 centuries, that no other system of belief has endured or spawned.


yeeeaaa. the practice of such evolution of dogma observation probably had nothing to do with that debate... Indeed, each of the other two major religions are invariably impotent in creating philosophical dialog, eh? I'm sure the whole of Asia agrees with you.


For those that so abhor the mention of "Christ", "born again" "salvation", "sinner", "sins", "Lordship", "repentance", etc... Take a big dare, and crack open that book with all the dust on it's cover that sits in a lonely part of your abode, or still sits in a book store somewhere waiting for your purchase. Try your best to open it's pages to the New Testament that starts with the advent of Christ's life on planet earth and ends at His ripe old age of 33 earthbound years.

been there, done that, wasn't impressed. Your obvious captivation is hardly universal.


Try to let the bible talk to you, and see if it says to you a different message than your pre-conceived message from whomever, whoever, or even yourself has compiled in your vast storage bank of brain cells over the years.

in other words, project a personal opinion over that which seems to apply like a spooky fortune teller who seems a bit too accurate to be fake? No wonder there is a range of christian beliefs.


Geology being one of them,

I was a fan of geology in college too. Dare I ask how you assimilate geologic time? The grand canyon? The KT boundary? the list goes on.


Even Paul of the bible thought He was doing God's work, rounding up Christians and bringing them back to Jerusalem for trial ( imprisonment and death).

eh? Can you show me where he makes such a statement about his actions before seeing god? The pharisee concept of god was HARDLY the testement of christ and his church.

1Corinthians 15:9
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Galatians 1:13
13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:


I hope you didn't think your sermon on the keyboard was going to make headway...


stop acting like you are being picked on. I am not a lion and this is not rome. Debate the tennants of the thread instead of hopping behind a pulpit. I've heard it all before.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

It's intrigueing and sad all at the same time.

Intrigueing:
Because there are belief systems in the world that are not inviting someone to church, or loving their enemy, or running rescue missions; serving thousands of daily meals, but see their belief system as a legal mandate by god to physically do harm to others who don't bend a knee to their belief/god.

Yet, good old biblical Christianity is "hammered" as though it's adherents get television time to behead infidels, and rattle sabres of war to the non-conforming world.

What causes this reaction to scripture. Did "eightball" make up the word, "born again"? Did eightball make up John 3:16? Hardly. Non-Christian man's fight isn't with anyone, but Christ/God.

You want Christ in your nice, little P.C. box? Go ahead and put Him in it. Think it changes reality? Hardly. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Want to use the poor, gentle Amish as a shield or debate defense? Go ahead. God loves the Amish, just like He loves you. You can shake a verbal fist at eightball or whoever that mentions biblical messages, or even accuse eightball or others of twisting the scripture, but God expects every man/woman to check for themselves. Eightball must go back to scripture often to make sure he's not passing on a message both in action, verbally to anyone that goes against the gospel. Eightball is fallible, and doesn't like to be wrong, but eightball can and will be wrong in past, present and future, but hopes and prays that he will get back on path and will accept correction.

Was the scripture designed to be interpretted diametrically different to any or all human beings? Hardly. Does man try to "soft ball" the impact of scripture to assuage his/her's own sick soul condition? Most assuredly. It hurts to be wrong. It hurts all of us. Being right is much more comfortable than being wrong, and knowing it. "Owning it" is very uncomfortable, but it's end product is a contrite and humble heart, that is readily open to instruction. We are not talking about the end product of brainwashing as in cultic tactics either. Just plain old openess to being wrong or skewed in thought, and willing to accept that possibility is a great step in the human soul.

Intriguing yes, surprising no. Christ said, not eightball, that there would be "mockers" by the myriads, and if one is so enlightened above those that expound Christian "talk/messages" allegedly obtuse, then maybe those enlightened ones should do as the Bereans did, and study the scripture for themselves? Maybe they aren't obtuse messages?

The Apostle Paul who wrote the books of Corinthians, Philippians, Galatians, Ephesians, Titus, Timothy, Colossians, Thessalonians, and possibly Hebrews to the various churches of Asia Minor to teach, correct, discipline and encourage in their fledgling states, commended all who "tested" all that he wrote or verbally said in light of existing O.T. scriptures of their day.

If I am misinterpretting Christian doctrine, then put me to the test or anyone who espouses anything about Christ and show that "we or me" are wrong, and that biblical Christianity is not what we express here or elsewhere.

I invite correction, that is astute, logical, well reasoned. I also know that I am fallible, and do not know all the answers.

Most of all, I invite correction that is respectful, as I have shown to all others on this board during my years here. I would especially expect a moderator of this esteemed board to reflect the spirit of debate in a manner that reflects admiration for diverse thoughts and not repugnance that disrespects a members system of belief. That isn't hamstringing free speech, but only keeping it in the vain of friendly discourse, seasoned with mutual respect.

A religious board or section of a forum needs to be able to debate issues of belief in the spirit of love, and give and take, without personalizing or disrespecting a particular member or members because they belong or espouse a particular religion. Exceptions would be "hate mongering" as a religion, or belief systems that encourage physical harm, anti-social, or anti-cultural behavior that provokes or encourages anarchy, leading to personal, life endangering. That is something that Jesus never did or espoused, nor should it be tolerated by anyone who sees, hears, or reads statements by anyone claiming to represent biblical Christianity.

The alleged Christianity of the Crusades was a counterfeit of biblical Christianity, and shouldn't even be considered Christianity at all. It isn't unlike Hitler's Third Reich (thousand year reign/Revelations) that took a little here and there from the bible and built a monumental, unGodly, tragic era in human history.

Christ did bring a message that He was indeed God in the flesh; that if you observed, heard, Him, you would have a glimpse of what God-your-Creator, was like in nature. Christ said, "I and the Father are One". Not like Jesus is one in agreement, but one in nature, and being in totality. Trully a mystery for man's finite mind, thus the many debates on the Trinity. It indeed is not Polytheism, but that's for another time or thread in the religion forum.

Christ calmly slept on one of the boats of His disciples as they crossed the Sea of Galilee, when a violent storm arose. Upon awakening by His frightened, followers, who feared drowning, He merely told the sea, "Be still", and the sea immediately calmed. His followers marveled that this Man could, by His mere word, order creation to obey or submit. It was at this time that little light bulbs started to pop "on" in their heads that this Man was not a mere teacher or prophet, but much more. Surely the past miracles of healing, would have been convincing, but the very nature of man then and now precluded any early assumptions of Christs true diety. Otherwise we wouldn't be debating on this thread.

Actually, we who have been exposed to the bible in the last several centurys, are without excuse. We have greater opportunity to believe, than those 2,000 years ago. We have the accumulated works of Christ and His disciples contained within a 66 book, book. A book that hasn't changed in intent, or grammatical verbage for eons as most religious books do in a matter of a hundred years of being re-scribed hand to hand. The 100+ year old Book of Mormon has gone through thousands of changes since the early 1800's. The bible has been accused of being corrupted because of its age, yet the 1,900+ year old Dead Sea scrolls had a complet text of the O.T. book of Isaiah, and it was "word for word" identical to the present day bible's rendition of Isaiah. Only small verbage differences were found, but the total message or intent of the scripture was totally, 100% the same. Remember that Isaiah as well as all the books were hand scribed thousands of times, yet with the great chance of human error or fallibility easily changing scripture in over 2,000 years, it didn't occur. I will call it supernatural, skeptics will take the broad, easy street, and call it, rolling a seven ten times in a row. Just a low odds chance that worked. I'll stick to God's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, as my conclusion. If God wants to communicate with humanity, He will also protect His means of commnication from being corrupted. If He/God, can't keep His Word from being changed, then He is most indeed a fallible, weak, Creator, and then the human race is back to flailing in the ice cold waters around the Titanic.

Sadly:

This is the tough part.

Sad, because, we all by our human natures, don't like pain. If we do, we are really weird.

There is however good pain, and bad pain. There is the bad pain of a sliver entering a finger. There is however the good pain of the tweezers pulling the sliver out of the finger in one piece. So the last pain is often followed with relief. So good pain hurts too, but it also is the harbinger of "good".

So goes the gospel of Christ. It is a painful sliver to the unsaved, soul. It reminds and reacts to the human soul like a sliver entering tender, nerve-filled flesh. It breaks apart tissue, and irritates. It confounds the human soul, as it asks or mandates against natural human nature.

Man is born, dead; according to the bible. All of us are born in that state. We come to an age of reasoning and decision about our course of life, and we are finally at that point of "responsibility" or "accountability" before our Maker. What is life? Why am I here? What, why, who, me, creation, existence, evil, goodness, peace, goals, jobs, marriage, love, children, security, death, birth, suffering, disease,.............What is all of this? There has to be a reason for it all. It couldn't possibly be the result of rising from primordial soup. If that's all it is, then why the dreams, ambitions, passion, arts, philosophy, music, etc. Are we just Apes that jumped from finger painting to the latter mentioned attributes? It is indeed a great chasm that was jumped.

Something has to make sense of all of this.

When man/woman comes to this point in their life, they are on the threshold of honestly seeking meaning. With that attitude in place, their Creator can finally respond in kind, with a sometimes subtle, and sometimes overt calling to their soul. Things that seemed mundane start to have meaning. Little things once are now important, and can be perceived as stepping stones towards something bigger than oneself.

The sadness, is that the very answers lie in a mere book of a few pages that contain enough information and knowledge both of man's travails in seeking God, and God's endeavors to communicate (God's travails/heartache) with His creation to answer all the most important questions needed to have restoration with one's Creator.

Intellect is good. Man has the capacity to ponder, to will, to express, to reason, to act, to emotionally enhance, in such unique ways above all of creation. Yet with that wonderful quality, is the capacity to say no, to a preponderance of evidence that demands an honest verdict.

Notice that not once in the bible does God force man to believe, but God does allow circumstances to influence man's decisions in ways that should "push" or encourage man to realize or see God's ways over man's answers that circumvent divine intervention.

God does not take a sword to the throat of the unbeliever through His human instruments and exact a threat of believe or die. He simply said in the Great Commission in Matthew, "Go out to the utter most parts of the world" and tell about Me. That gospel(good news) is simply the life, the crucifixion, the burial, and the ressurrection of Christ, the Messiah to the Jews, and Jesus the Saviour of mankind to the gentiles. It's not complex, yet it has created debate over the last 20 centuries, that no other system of belief has endured or spawned.

For those that so abhor the mention of "Christ", "born again" "salvation", "sinner", "sins", "Lordship", "repentance", etc... Take a big dare, and crack open that book with all the dust on it's cover that sits in a lonely part of your abode, or still sits in a book store somewhere waiting for your purchase. Try your best to open it's pages to the New Testament that starts with the advent of Christ's life on planet earth and ends at His ripe old age of 33 earthbound years.

Try to let the bible talk to you, and see if it says to you a different message than your pre-conceived message from whomever, whoever, or even yourself has compiled in your vast storage bank of brain cells over the years.

Try to eliminate the dysfunctional life of the past in the poor or whatever parental modeling, the hurts of people that you trusted, the failures of goals in life, the mundane and the vivid experiences, that have created a "model" of God within your mind. Let the bible reveal God's side of His nature, or the bible's model of God. It will most likely hit with "logger heads" against your manmade model of God, that is an acummulation of experiences over years of fighting the good fight of survival on this terrestrial ball in your own intellectual strength.

It's takes a brave soul, who's willing to see another side, and raise one's hands in surrender, and lay down one's weapons of combat, and accept that one has fought a good fight, but a false fight.

I eightball, was a staunch intellectual, on the other side from Christianity. I have accumulated many years of higher learning and have three degrees in the of which two are in the sciences.......Geology being one of them, yet there was still an empty wondering in my soul that wasn't being quenched. How many here can nod in the affirmative? How many here are willing to face their demons, and not put up the old defense, and fight like a drowning man without a lifesaver?

Even Paul of the bible thought He was doing God's work, rounding up Christians and bringing them back to Jerusalem for trial ( imprisonment and death). He even stood by and encouraged the stoning death of many of Jesus's followers, giving hearty support.

Yet, one day, Paul while on his ferverish pursuit of Christians was blinded by a heavenly light in the desert, and fell from his horse. He and only he heard a voice speak to him, "Paul, why do you pursue me". Paul asked who "He" was. "He" said, "Jesus". On that day, Paul was a changed man. He gave up the fight, and surrendered to the true captain of his life. From thence onward, Paul endured beating and hardships beyond our imaginations nowadays. These were exacted upon him by the very ones that he earlier gave support to in their pursuit of Christians.

Who, here is willing to open that book and try their darndest to read the first pages of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, without entertaining preconceived thoughts of who God, Christ, or Christianity is or ought to be?

Letting down ones guard is akin to letting down one's preconceived and often skewed ideas. It's not unlike being afraid of the dark when a child. There comes a time in life when we must pass from child to adult, not in physical nature, but in soul. The dark needs light to reveal it's pit-falls. A little truth goes a long way to revealing what is in the dark, and leading a man/woman on a straight and safe path.

Date Balls said,

I eightball, was a staunch intellectual, on the other side from Christianity. I have accumulated many years of higher learning and have three degrees in the of which two are in the sciences.......

Clearly you got your 3 degrees (probably from the “Yunavercity” at the back of Billy Bob’s Bait, Beer, and Ammo “Stoa” in Hicksville NC) before you joined the baying-at-the-moon-mad Flat Earth believers. Who have conveniently convinced themselves that their something borrowed, something blue, everything old and NOTHING new, PLAGIARISED Buybull accurately portrays actual events.

In retrospect, you must regret all that wasted time and expense studying, when all the past, present and future knowledge needed by mankind is contained in the primitive squiggles of some comically superstitious, unduly narcissistic Iraqi nomads. Whose once “mighty kingdom” - set in an area about the size of Central Park – is now proven never to have existed.

You do still realise that if you expressed the same phantasmagorical Fundie fantasies, without the benefit of the Get Out Of Bedlam Free Card, that only Christians get in our Bible oppressed society, you would be put into a rubber room in a long-sleeved, back-to-front canvas cardigan, don’t you, Elmer?

Because it sure seems that you are like all lunatics, who are convinced those weird bastards on the outside looking in are mad and bad and out to get them!

Samuel Johnson summed up the psychotic Christian mind when he said,

I hate mankind,
for I think myself
one of the best of them,
and I know how bad I am.

 

[Kid Pickle]

A good definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If I am insane, then why have the results of my new life led to greater peace, joy, satisfaction, and stability? I was once as beligerrent, angry, and irrational as the anti-theists in this thread. If that is sanity, I want no part of it and I know it brings no beneficial results.

Continuing on the topic of the thread, I think a definition of "love" is in order. To discuss and debate what something means, we must define the terms.

Also, I get the feeling that many think "turn the other cheek" means to not defend onesself, or that we have two cheeks, so take two slaps then start hitting back. I don't see either interpretation as biblical. It is a moral imperative to defend oneself from grevious or mortal harm. Getting slapped never killed or seriously hurt anyone that I am aware of, so I think it is more a command to humble oneself when one is attacked or persecuted and allow justice (God's or the law's) to take its course.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

A good definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If I am insane, then why have the results of my new life led to greater peace, joy, satisfaction, and stability? I was once as beligerrent, angry, and irrational as the anti-theists in this thread. If that is sanity, I want no part of it and I know it brings no beneficial results.

Continuing on the topic of the thread, I think a definition of "love" is in order. To discuss and debate what something means, we must define the terms.

Also, I get the feeling that many think "turn the other cheek" means to not defend onesself, or that we have two cheeks, so take two slaps then start hitting back. I don't see either interpretation as biblical. It is a moral imperative to defend oneself from grevious or mortal harm. Getting slapped never killed or seriously hurt anyone that I am aware of, so I think it is more a command to humble oneself when one is attacked or persecuted and allow justice (God's or the law's) to take its course.

By your own admission, had you grown up in India and accepted Hinduism, you would have found the same “piece of (someone else's) mind.”

The same applies to anyone, fearful of the future and inclined to authoritarianism, who accepts ANY philosophy as the “The Way, The Truth, and The Life,” including Maoism, Nazism, or Satanism.

 

[Kid Pickle]

By your own admission, had you grown up in India and accepted Hinduism, you would have found the same “piece of (someone else's) mind.”

I don't know what that has to do with anything. I wasn't raised Christian, and now I am. Hinduism is a religion, based on meaningless rituals, and the concept that this life is essentially meaningless because, hey, you get a do-over, and it will get better, eventually, so just accept where you are in life, try to be a good person, and drudge on until this one goes and you get a better one. Christianity is diametrically opposed to this.

The same applies to anyone, fearful of the future and inclined to authoritarianism, who accepts ANY philosophy as the “The Way, The Truth, and The Life,” including Maoism, Nazism, or Satanism.

As opposed to fearful of authoritarianism and inclined to not being engaged in reality. If there are many truths, there is no truth. If there are many paths, why have any? If we are not made to live forever, why would we have a concept of eternity? Philosophy is an attempt to acertain truth through logical means. It is a science. If anything goes, nothing of value can be known. I know you don't care as all you can do is find satisfaction in abusing the stupid God-people and anything resembling decency as vulgarly as possible, but, alas, I continue.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

I don't know what that has to do with anything. I wasn't raised Christian, and now I am. Hinduism is a religion, based on meaningless rituals, and the concept that this life is essentially meaningless because, hey, you get a do-over, and it will get better, eventually, so just accept where you are in life, try to be a good person, and drudge on until this one goes and you get a better one. Christianity is diametrically opposed to this.


As opposed to fearful of authoritarianism and inclined to not being engaged in reality. If there are many truths, there is no truth. If there are many paths, why have any? If we are not made to live forever, why would we have a concept of eternity? Philosophy is an attempt to acertain truth through logical means. It is a science. If anything goes, nothing of value can be known. I know you don't care as all you can do is find satisfaction in abusing the stupid God-people and anything resembling decency as vulgarly as possible, but, alas, I continue.

How old are you, and how long is it since you had a drink, a drug, or a forbidden fuck?