Islamic honor killings becoming more acceptable to Islam?

[Diuretic]

Every day here in America.

There are around 10 women who are murdered.

Police say that 74% of the women are murdered by boy friends, ex boy friends, husbands, and ex husbands.

In almost every case, there has been a seperation, pending divorce, dicorce, or restraining order, as the result of infidelity or adultry.

Yet in Western culture, we don't call these murders "honor killings".

Although, the men involved clearly feel that their "honor" has been violated and murder the women to restore their "honor".

I have to disagree. These are revenge murders, they're not about familial honour, they're men who kill because they think they own the women and, enraged that the woman is seeking to get away from them they kill them out of a sense of possessiveness. Plenty of men don't kill separating wives or girlfriends though. It's hardly culturally embedded in the US. A culturally embedded honour killing usually involves a family group rather than an individual. A female member may stain the honour of the family by, for example, dating a westerner. A male member of the dishonoured family (and remember the concept of "dishonour" is culturally defined) kills the woman to recover family honour.

 

[Diuretic]

Di, are you trying to say honor killing is an Arabic thing? I don't think you are, but just please clarify that.

The conclusions I draw are that something in Sharia law seems to make the population ruled by it accept honor killings, or at the very least look the other way.

I don't know enough about Arabic culture to be able to make that point Ravi. I did read some material about Kurds being involved in this sort of behaviour but I don't know the cultural differences between Kurds and Arabs, all I know is that they're apparently different.

I don't know enough about Sharia or Islam to be able to comment one way or the other. I do think though that if Islam generally or Sharia in particular authorised, condoned, encouraged or facilitated honour killings then that should be seen in the formal laws of nations where Islam was an influential religion (eg the northern states of Nigeria). I am putting the argument that honour killings are culturally embedded and are not authorised (please see above for further synonyms) by Islam or any other religion.

 

[Ravi]

Di, are you trying to say honor killing is an Arabic thing? I don't think you are, but just please clarify that.

The conclusions I draw are that something in Sharia law seems to make the population ruled by it accept honor killings, or at the very least look the other way.

I don't know enough about Arabic culture to be able to make that point Ravi. I did read some material about Kurds being involved in this sort of behaviour but I don't know the cultural differences between Kurds and Arabs, all I know is that they're apparently different.

I don't know enough about Sharia or Islam to be able to comment one way or the other. I do think though that if Islam generally or Sharia in particular authorised, condoned, encouraged or facilitated honour killings then that should be seen in the formal laws of nations where Islam was an influential religion (eg the northern states of Nigeria). I am putting the argument that honour killings are culturally embedded and are not authorised (please see above for further synonyms) by Islam or any other religion.

Pakistanis, Arabs, Kurds and Chechens are all originally different cultures and are still different ethnicities. The only common thread I see that runs through them is Islam. Honor killings are authorized by Saudi Arabia and apparently Chechnya.

 

[Sunni Man]

Di, are you trying to say honor killing is an Arabic thing? I don't think you are, but just please clarify that.

The conclusions I draw are that something in Sharia law seems to make the population ruled by it accept honor killings, or at the very least look the other way.

I don't know enough about Arabic culture to be able to make that point Ravi. I did read some material about Kurds being involved in this sort of behaviour but I don't know the cultural differences between Kurds and Arabs, all I know is that they're apparently different.

I don't know enough about Sharia or Islam to be able to comment one way or the other. I do think though that if Islam generally or Sharia in particular authorised, condoned, encouraged or facilitated honour killings then that should be seen in the formal laws of nations where Islam was an influential religion (eg the northern states of Nigeria). I am putting the argument that honour killings are culturally embedded and are not authorised (please see above for further synonyms) by Islam or any other religion.

Pakistanis, Arabs, Kurds and Chechens are all originally different cultures and are still different ethnicities. The only common thread I see that runs through them is Islam. Honor killings are authorized by Saudi Arabia and apparently Chechnya.

By far the largest number of so called "honor killings" in the world happen in India by their majority Hindu population.

There were around 5,000 in that country reported last year.

(You have been made aware of this fact before, but choose to ignore it for some reason.)

So Ravi how does that fit into your Sharia Law and Islam theory?

 

[Ravi]

I don't know enough about Arabic culture to be able to make that point Ravi. I did read some material about Kurds being involved in this sort of behaviour but I don't know the cultural differences between Kurds and Arabs, all I know is that they're apparently different.

I don't know enough about Sharia or Islam to be able to comment one way or the other. I do think though that if Islam generally or Sharia in particular authorised, condoned, encouraged or facilitated honour killings then that should be seen in the formal laws of nations where Islam was an influential religion (eg the northern states of Nigeria). I am putting the argument that honour killings are culturally embedded and are not authorised (please see above for further synonyms) by Islam or any other religion.

Pakistanis, Arabs, Kurds and Chechens are all originally different cultures and are still different ethnicities. The only common thread I see that runs through them is Islam. Honor killings are authorized by Saudi Arabia and apparently Chechnya.

By far the largest number of so called "honor killings" in the world happen in India by their majority Hindu population.

There were around 5,000 in that country reported last year.

So Ravi how does that fit into your Sharia Law and Islam theory?

They suck, too. We'll get to them evenutally.

 

[Neser Boha]

..and they seem to reflect our very own Sunni's ideas about western culture...it is evil.

But what I think doesn't matter. The president of their country claims it is an Islamic value.

I think it is a big and dangerous mistake to throw all the Sunni Muslims into one bag and claim that they all share an opinion that western culture is evil (per example).

I just read an academic article yesterday about the fact that around 85-90% of Middle-Eastern Muslims consider democracy to be the best form of government. Democracy is thought of as quite the Western export, isn't it? (Jamal, Amaney and Mark Tessler (2008), "Attitudes in The Arab World", Journal of Democracy 19:1) As a matter of fact, the authors state:

...support for democracy in the Arab world is as high as or higher than in any other world region.

So, while I'm sure there is a sizable minority of extremists (consisting mostly of uneducated, poor, country-folk, and your regular crazies as well) I would like to ask people not to think of all Muslims in such a disgusting way...

I myself have many friends - from Palestine, Libya, Lebanon, Jordan, who are all Muslims - even regularly practicing Muslims - who are some of the most respectful and fun people I've ever met. They all condemn such things as suicide-bombings, honor killings, etc. According to my Muslim Friend Abdullah from Libya, Qu'ran even preaches that each Muslim is to go by the law of the land he or she resides in... now talk about that.

By being this narrow-minded we are making it harder for the majority of Muslims who would never ever condone such actions as honor killings...

Also, I'd like to comment on the outtakes from Qu'ran... you can take many quotes out of the Bible and find some pretty disgusting 'practices' there... so let's not get our panties in a wad over some dumb quote.

 

[Ravi]

I think it is a big and dangerous mistake to throw all the Sunni Muslims into one bag and claim that they all share an opinion that western culture is evil (per example).

Probably. It might be useful to ask Sunni to tone down his rhetoric. Just a thought.

I just read an academic article yesterday about the fact that around 85-90% of Middle-Eastern Muslims consider democracy to be the best form of government. Democracy is thought of as quite the Western export, isn't it? (Jamal, Amaney and Mark Tessler (2008), "Attitudes in The Arab World", Journal of Democracy 19:1) As a matter of fact, the authors state: ...support for democracy in the Arab world is as high as or higher than in any other world region.

That sounds good but I haven't seen much evidence of it in the real world.

So, while I'm sure there is a sizable minority of extremists (consisting mostly of uneducated, poor, country-folk, and your regular crazies as well) I would like to ask people not to think of all Muslims in such a disgusting way...

I don't believe they are all uneducated. Perhaps Muslims should condemn this president for his beliefs...again, just a thought.

I myself have many friends - from Palestine, Libya, Lebanon, Jordan, who are all Muslims - even regularly practicing Muslims - who are some of the most respectful and fun people I've ever met. They all condemn such things as suicide-bombings, honor killings, etc. According to my Muslim Friend Abdullah from Libya, Qu'ran even preaches that each Muslim is to go by the law of the land he or she resides in... now talk about that.

This isn't making sense as most of the problems are in lands that practice Sharia law.

By being this narrow-minded we are making it harder for the majority of Muslims who would never ever condone such actions as honor killings...

This seems to be more a problem for them than for me...why don't they make an effort to change people's perceptions?

Also, I'd like to comment on the outtakes from Qu'ran... you can take many quotes out of the Bible and find some pretty disgusting 'practices' there... so let's not get our panties in a wad over some dumb quote.

Yes, there are many things in the bible that call for disgusting practices but I've not seen any real evidence that anyone follows them.

 

[Diuretic]

You'll have to take my word for this, I can't find the book, it's here somewhere in my book room but that's a shambles at the moment (wait a minute, it's always been shambles...never mind...)

Aflred Guillaume in his book "Islam" right towards the end of the book makes the point that the time of writing, which I think was in the 1950s (I tried to find out but I got sick of wading through the intrusive Google paid links), that islam was, to use the old cliche, at a crossroads. It could continue to progress or it could regress into conservatism. Again from memory I believe Guillaume advised the west to constructively engage Islamic nations and foster the progressive ideas. But that was the 1950s, the Cold War was the focus of international relations and oil was cheap and plentiful and the sellers weren't getting cranky. It's a shame his advice wasn't heeded.

 

[Neser Boha]

Probably. It might be useful to ask Sunni to tone down his rhetoric. Just a thought.

Sunni - you mean that dude that posts here?

I don't believe they are all uneducated. Perhaps Muslims should condemn this president for his beliefs...again, just a thought.

This isn't making sense as most of the problems are in lands that practice Sharia law.

About the practice of Sharia law... countries such as Turkey, Jordan, Indonesia, Mauritania, Tunisia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Morocco, Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, Lebanon, Kazakhstan and possibly others do not practice Sharia law... I think it is only Malaysia, Iran, the Gaza strip that apply some sort of Sharia law, even though many scholars argue that Sharia law is not applied anywhere in the world the way it was intended. Saudi Arabia is probably the closest to Sharia-law practicing country, but some argue that's not exactly so. However, don't quote me on that.... that's just from what I read around and it seems it's not all set in stone.

I think the media is in general not paying enough attention to the Muslims who are actually speaking against other Radical Muslim's rhetoric. There are books written by moderate and modern Muslims on these topics. Can't remember the name of one of the most famous one - a woman, read half her book. I'll tell you once I remember her name. If you search for it online, you'll find bunch of blogs by Muslims against Muslim extremism, etc... Maybe you should have a look at them. Also found some websites...
examples: freemuslims[dot]org and islamagainstextremism[dot]com

This seems to be more a problem for them than for me...why don't they make an effort to change people's perceptions?

See above. Plus, more effort surely would be appreciated, but also us not making it harder for them could theoretically help... dontcha think?

Yes, there are many things in the bible that call for disgusting practices but I've not seen any real evidence that anyone follows them.

I don't want to make it into a boxing match between Christians and Muslims here, therefore, I won't comment on this.

 

[GHook93]

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan...

And in Egypt, Somolia, Turkey, Palestinian, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Afghanistan. Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morrocco, Sudan, Sengal etc.

But are male relatives permitted by law to carry out honour killings in these countries?

See you will go as what is stated in stone laws! The answer is I don't know. However, as for De Facto laws? Without a doubt.