Islamic honor killings

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by American_Jihad, Jan 25, 2016.

  1. American_Jihad
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    American_Jihad Flaming Libs/Koranimals

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    And people ask me why do I call these people beasts...
    "Try to Relax Here for a While Because They’re Going to Kill You Anyway"
    January 25, 2016
    Daniel Greenfield

    [​IMG]

    This is an excerpt from a larger Asra Nomani piece on honor killings in the Wall Street Journal. It's quite a dark look at what life under Islamic mores is like for women.

    ...

    When you consider the problem of terrorism, it's important to remember that we are dealing with societies where dehumanization and murder of even one's own closest relatives is not an aberration. Expecting a culture where you throw a party for murdering your own daughter who had been raped to treat us better than they have, let alone to understand that killing is wrong, is just unrealistic.

    Ms. Zoepf gingerly traces the roots of twisted practices, such as honor killings, to Islamic concepts such as fitna, or the “chaos” that is often connected to “temptation of a sexual nature.”

    That accusation, incidentally, has also been directed from the Muslim world at the entire West.

    "Try to Relax Here for a While Because They’re Going to Kill You Anyway"
     
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  2. Pogo
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    Pogo Diamond Member

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    "Honor killing" is not Islamic, Jizzhat. It's not associated with any religion at all. It's way older than Islam, older than Christianism, older than Judaism or Buddhism. It's a cultural artifact from antiquity, and it has no religious function. Not in Islam, not in Christianism, not in Hinduism, not in Sikhism --- nowhere in any of the religions coincident with it. To the contrary, ALL of those religions prohibit it. So when it still happens, it happens in spite of --- not because of -- anybody's religion.

    And we've done this a million times and I can prove it. Your link here is a complete load of crapola.

    Get your head out of the sewers you get your bullshit info from. You'll smell better.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 26, 2016
  3. American_Jihad
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    American_Jihad Flaming Libs/Koranimals

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    But, but were talking about Islamic because no one else is doing it today in the 21st cen. fool. Now get to work and give me some links, now...
    :whip:
     
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  4. Pogo
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    BULLSHIT. As I just said it has nothing to do with religion. There is no religious function IN it. Never has been, never will be.

    You'll get your links when I'm good and ready. Like during normal business hours. Go crawl back to whatever gutter you woke up the snakes in and sleep it off.
     
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  5. 007
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    007 Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Oh man... Pogo... really dude? How many people do you think DON'T KNOW about muslim HONOR KILLINGS?

    Get real Bud...
     
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  6. American_Jihad
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    American_Jihad Flaming Libs/Koranimals

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    LINK, moron anybody, any group, make one up if you have to. Now get to work jackass...
     
  7. Pogo
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    Pogo Diamond Member

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    Piss off punk. As I said we've done this a trillion times here. Sell your fucking bullshit elsewhere, this board ain't buyin'.
     
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  8. Pogo
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    Pogo Diamond Member

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    OK assholes, it ain't that hard to Google this back up, here's one among many, at random ---

    What size rock do you live under to remain this degree of Ignorant?

    >> An Indian couple was lynched and set on fire in the eastern state of Bihar in a suspected case of “honor killing” on Wednesday, according to local media reports. A case has been registered by the local police against six people, of whom one has been arrested so far.

    A 36-year-old man and a 16-year-old girl reportedly eloped three days ago from a village in Bihar’s Gaya district, but were located by the girl’s family and brought back to the village of Amaitha, about 65 miles south of the state’s capital Patna. The village council had held a meeting to resolve the issue, but the girl’s family refused to settle the situation and killed the couple, BBC reported. << --- IBTimes

    There's no reference in the article to anyone's religion -- just as there's no reference to anyone's astrological sign or who might be lefthanded -- as these are not a factor in the act. However it does go into what IS a factor:

    >> Honor killings, which are typically the result of two young people marrying without the consent of their families and often across caste barriers -- hence bringing "dishonor" on the family -- are widespread in India, among all ethnic groups and religions, but especially in rural regions of the north and northwest.

    In 2011, India's Supreme Court warned that those who kill for "honor" should face death penalty. <<​
    "Family". "Caste". "Social status". NONE of these are aspects of religion, whether Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Christian or anything else. These are social status matters, which is exactly what we've been noting all along. It is simply NOT RELATED TO RELIGION, and to suggest it is comprises a fatal Cum Hoc fallacy. Nor have any of you bigots presented one shred of evidence that the religion created it. ANY of them.

    It was used in the fucking Roman Empire fer Chrissake, and they didn't invent it either.


    Then there's ...

    >> According to statistics from the United Nations, one in five cases of honour killing internationally every year comes from India. Of the 5000 cases reported internationally, 1000 are from India. Non-governmental organisations put the number at four times this figure. They claim it is around 20,000 cases globally every year.

    While traditionally occuring in villages and smaller towns in India, the cases of 'honour killing' have been on the rise and are reported sporadically in the media. The double murder of a 14-year-old school girl and a 50-year-old domestic help in a New Delhi suburb with its 'honour killing' sub text has received unprecedented attention, and is perhaps urban India's most hyped alleged 'honour killing'.

    Although the Talwars, the parents of the girl, were charged with the murders of their daughter, Aarushi and their domestic help, Hemraj, the 'motive' for the murders has always been attributed to 'honour killing'. Special CBI Judge Shyam Lal, while convicting the parents earlier this week, said that the dentist couple had found their daughter and the help in an "objectionable position".
    ...
    Cases piling up

    Some gruesome cases that have been reported in the media in recent times from different regions in the country include that of 23 year old Dharmender Barak and 18 year old Nidhi Barak, who paid a heavy price for defying their families and falling in love.

    The couple, from a village in Rohtak district in Harayana, were tortured, mutilated and killed by the girl’s father and their relatives when they tried to run away and marry. A friend whom the couple had confided in, leaked their plans to the girl’s parents, who lured them back with assurances, only to allegedly kill them in the most cruel manner. The police is treating the ‘double murder’ as a ‘honour crime’.

    In September 2013, the Haryana police arrested a police sub-inspector in connection with the killing of a 19 year old girl from Panipat. Meenakshi had eloped with her lover and the cop had tracked her down and handed her over to her family, who then allegedly murdered her.

    On October 24, 2013, in another case from Haryana, a 15 year old Muslim girl from Muzzafarnagar was banished to her uncle’s house to prevent her from seeing the boy she was in love with. Her uncle allegedly murdered her and buried her in Panchkula District in Haryana.

    ... In July 2013, Arun Bandu Irkal from Yerwada in Maharashtra was served with a life sentence by a sessions judge. In 2002, the accused had reportedly assaulted his 17 year old daughter, Yashodha, 48 times with a pair of scissors for having an affair with a boy from another caste. She did not survive the attack.

    The accused surrendered, then fled bail and was finally re-arrested in 2011. The court convicted him for murdering his daughter this year. The court said ‘honour’ was the motive behind the murder.

    On November 1, 2013, in Bhopal, a lower court announced a life term for 10 men in a case of 'honour killing'. The men were accused of killing Amar Singh, the elder brother of Sawar Singh who had allegedly eloped with Hema, the wife of Balbir Singh, one of the accused men.

    ....
    Voices have also been raised to reign in the 'khap panchayats', self-elected village councils comprising male village elders who perpetuate values that, in turn, covertly endorse these killings in the name of saving the 'family's honour'.

    Like the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the khaps have attained notoriety by issuing diktats on dress code for women and demanding a ban on the use of cell phones by young girls and women.

    In rural India and middle class urban India, the onus for upholding the family morality falls on the women in the family - the daughter, daughter-in-law, wife and mother. By daring to choose a life partner, other than the one chosen for her by her family or by committing adultery, she violates the family’s honour. Both she and her lover face death as a consequence.

    Recently, a group of khap panchayats filed a document before the country’s highest court saying they had been wrongly charged for encouraging honour killings in rural India. Earlier, a women’s rights group, Shakti Vahini, had petitioned the Supreme Court seeking a direction to the government to be more proactive when ‘honour killings’ are carried out.

    They blamed the khap panchayats for endorsing patriarchy, which reinforced the subjugation of women in society and the resultant ‘honour killings’.

    Retribution for bringing shame

    The court summoned 67 representatives of the khap panchayats to explain their role in ‘honour killings’. They did that in a written reply, saying it is not they who are responsible for such killings but the families who fail to prevent their daughters and sisters and wives from interacting with men, which results in shame and ostracisation by the community.

    They argued that women who feared their male relatives never committed such acts and therefore never had to face such consequences. In short, the khap panchayat representatives overtly defended ‘honour killings’.

    According to UN statistics, the United Kingdom has 12 cases of honour killings every year, the majority of them from the Asian and west Asian diaspora. Will countries abroad have to also legislate on 'honour killing' if South Asian men and those from west Asia carry their patriarchy to foreign shores and murder women who break the so-called ‘cultural norms’?
    ....
    'Cancer of patriachy'

    Banaz’s Iraqi Kurd father and relatives felt she had brought shame to her family and community by leaving her husband who was abusive and an alleged rapist. Banaz had fallen in love with another man and had to pay with her life for that. She was raped, strangled to death and her body was put in a suitcase.

    .... Recently a case was reported where, after a long battle with the Australian Immigration and Refugee Authorities, a couple, a Sikh and a backward caste Hindu who had married secretly in India in 2007, were granted asylum in the country. The couple had said their lives would be in danger if they had to return to India as they feared ‘honour killing’ for having defied the caste system.

    Even as the dust settles on the verdict of the Talwars in Delhi, it will be a while before Indian society really begins to digest the cancer of patriarchy manifested through ‘honour killings’. Like all social evils, unless society shuns these practices, the police and judiciary alone cannot save women who want to break free from arranged and abusive marriages. --- Honor Killings: India's Crying Shame

    Now then Gummo.... exactly how many of these cases even make a reference to religion? I make it three: one Hindu, one Muslim, one Sikh, all three of which are mentioned as incidental adjectives. In how many of those does religion play any role at all in the act? ZERO. How many of the motivations -- which I put in bold for you slow readers -- have any kind of religious basis at all, from any religion at all? ZERO.

    On the other hand --- how many references do we see to family and social "caste" status, control of women, patriarchy, and activism against it by women's groups -- you'll note, not religious groups but women's groups? Every damn one of them.

    Still want to go on with this abject ignoramitude?


    (from here)

    And YOU, Jizzhat, were RIGHT THERE IN THAT FUCKING THREAD, so don't come crawling in here trying to claim you don't know about this, fucking liar.
     
  9. Pogo
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    The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

    For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

    In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

    Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

    Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

    In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50
    ...
    In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

    There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam. --- Historical Context: Origins of Honor Killing
     
  10. 007
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    Well, that's all nice and dandy you trying to sound tough and all, but the facts remain, muslims honor kill their women...

    In Pakistan, 1,000 women die in ‘honor killings’ annually. Why is this happening?

    And I never really said anything mean to you ever before on this board, and you just went completely off your rocker on me to support lies. Guess our friendship is over, moron.
     
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