Islamic honor killings becoming more acceptable to Islam?

[Ravi]

Di, I looked for Sicilian and/or Calabrian honor killings without much luck. I found a Sicilian one from the early 1900s and a Calabrian one that involved *gasp* Muslims.

 

[TAS]

There is nothing called honor killing in Islam
You won't find a verse in the Quran that says that a male member of a family go and kill a female member of the family because of her promiscuous behavior.
It's a cultural thing.

Islamica Magazine - Islam and 'Honor Killings'
Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

 

[Ravi]

There is nothing called honor killing in Islam
You won't find a verse in the Quran that says that a male member of a family go and kill a female member of the family because of her promiscuous behavior.
It's a cultural thing.

Islamica Magazine - Islam and 'Honor Killings'
Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

From your first link:

In the case of fornication or adultery, the only way a charge can be levied against an individual, male or female, is through confession, which is discouraged, or by four people actually witnessing the male organ penetrating the female. Even if four people witnessed a naked man engaged with a naked woman, but could not actually testify that they witnessed penetration, their testimony would be rejected.

So what would the charge and the punishment be?

 

[TAS]

There is nothing called honor killing in Islam
You won't find a verse in the Quran that says that a male member of a family go and kill a female member of the family because of her promiscuous behavior.
It's a cultural thing.

Islamica Magazine - Islam and 'Honor Killings'
Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

From your first link:

In the case of fornication or adultery, the only way a charge can be levied against an individual, male or female, is through confession, which is discouraged, or by four people actually witnessing the male organ penetrating the female. Even if four people witnessed a naked man engaged with a naked woman, but could not actually testify that they witnessed penetration, their testimony would be rejected.

So what would the charge and the punishment be?

There would be no punishment. What the family of the promiscuous girl can do is to disown her.

 

[Ravi]

There is nothing called honor killing in Islam
You won't find a verse in the Quran that says that a male member of a family go and kill a female member of the family because of her promiscuous behavior.
It's a cultural thing.

Islamica Magazine - Islam and 'Honor Killings'
Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar
BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

From your first link:

In the case of fornication or adultery, the only way a charge can be levied against an individual, male or female, is through confession, which is discouraged, or by four people actually witnessing the male organ penetrating the female. Even if four people witnessed a naked man engaged with a naked woman, but could not actually testify that they witnessed penetration, their testimony would be rejected.

So what would the charge and the punishment be?

There would be no punishment. What the family of the promiscuous girl can do is to disown her.

That makes no sense...why have a charge and a burden of proof if there was no punishment.

 

[del]

From your first link:

So what would the charge and the punishment be?

There would be no punishment. What the family of the promiscuous girl can do is to disown her.

That makes no sense...why have a charge and a burden of proof if there was no punishment.

i'd say being disowned is punishment

 

[Ravi]

There would be no punishment. What the family of the promiscuous girl can do is to disown her.

That makes no sense...why have a charge and a burden of proof if there was no punishment.

i'd say being disowned is punishment

Me, too. According to wikipedia:

Saudi law allows the death penalty for a number of crimes. For example:

• Murder
• Adultery
• Rape
• Sexual misconduct
• Apostasy
• Blasphemy
• Piracy
• Homosexuality
• Drug-related crime
• Sedition
• Witchcraft
• Idolatry
• Fornication

 

[Ravi]

Methods

Currently Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world which still uses beheading (with a sword) as an official method of execution. Saudi law also allow executions by stoning and firing squad, though execution by firing squad is very rare and is usually carried out in private. Beheadings are preceded by the condemned being tapped of most of their blood and ingesting fairly large amounts of various drugs in order to reduce pain in case of a botched execution, as well as minimize prisoner movement and excessive flow of gore once the beheading is carried out.
Almost all executions are carried out in public. There have been some examples of decapitated bodies also being crucified.
Capital punishment in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ravi]

The Basic Law, in 1992, declared that Saudi Arabia is a monarchy ruled by the progeny of King Abd Al Aziz Al Saud. It also declared the Qur'an as the constitution of the country, governed on the basis of Islamic law.[13]

 

[Ravi]

I guess the Saudis don't understand Islamic law.

 

[TAS]

I guess the Saudis don't understand Islamic law.

Yes, they don't

 

[Ravi]

I guess the Saudis don't understand Islamic law.

Yes, they don't

I imagine they'd beg to differ with you.

 

[Diuretic]

The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

Chicken or egg. Did these values give rise to Islam, or did Islam give rise to these values?

That's a fine question. I don't know the answer.

 

[Sunni Man]

The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

Chicken or egg. Did these values give rise to Islam, or did Islam give rise to these values?

That's a fine question. I don't know the answer.

Neither one.

Many of the cultural values in these countries were around long before Islam came on the scene.

 

[Diuretic]

No, in those cases crime is the cause of honor killings. And they aren't killing people for sexual activity...they're killing them for acting criminally against their bosses.

I hope you aren't saying Islam is like the mafia. The president in this story seems to have legalized honor killings. While it may be true that Islam doesn't officially allow honor killings, they are guilty of looking the other way...just like the Catholic church is with their pedophile priests.

No, I'm not referring to crimes by the Mafia, the Camorra or the Black Hand and so on. I'm actually referring to exactly the same sort of crimes as have been discussed here. A woman has brought shame on the family, a male relative murders her.

Islam isn't a centralised, hierarchical form of religion such as Christianity (in particular the Roman Catholic church) so it's difficult to make that comparison. It would seem though that senior Islamic figures in the UK are in fact condemning these killings. The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

I'm not familiar with the Black Hand, etc. But if you can show me that Catholic cultures across the world engage in honor killings I'll admit that it is the religion that condones them.

Islam is connected with these killings...otherwise they wouldn't be happening across cultures and throughout the world.

I'm not trying to argue that Catholicism has anything to do with honour killings so we can dispense wth that.

But if you're trying to argue that islam has a "connection" with these killings then you'll have to do more than point to instances of them happening in various cultures across the world. If the concept of honur killings predates Islam then that pretty much seals it I think. I don't know if the concept does indeed predate Islam. But I have another question which tests your hypothesis. Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation in the world. If honour killings are part of Indonesian culture then it would go a long way to proving that Islam and honour killings are indeed linked and that Islam causes or facilitates honour killings. Find the evidence and you'll convince me. In the meantime I'm going to press the point that honour killings are found in specific cultures in various places and in societies with various dominant religions and that the concept is not embedded in Islam.

 

[Diuretic]

And in Egypt, Somolia, Turkey, Palestinian, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Afghanistan. Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morrocco, Sudan, Sengal etc.

But are male relatives permitted by law to carry out honour killings in these countries?

There is De Jure and De Facto laws! Definitely all have a De Facto tolerance of honor killings!

That's just nonsense, it make no sense. You might want to try again.

 

[Diuretic]

Sicilians have honour killings. Calabrians have honour killings. Does that mean that Roman Catholicism is a cause of honour killings?

What a weak weak weak leftist response!

You know something. You are a pathetic individual. Cease embarrassing yourself with self-revealing posts like this. It's always best, on a forum, not to respond if you don't have the capacity to do so, that way you look less like a fuckwit. Unfortunately for you you have just demonstrated that you are a fuckwit.

 

[Diuretic]

Di, I looked for Sicilian and/or Calabrian honor killings without much luck. I found a Sicilian one from the early 1900s and a Calabrian one that involved *gasp* Muslims.

That's' okay Ravi, sometimes you just have to look harder for the evidence.

 

[Diuretic]

I guess the Saudis don't understand Islamic law.

The Saudis would have to be the worst example you could use. They are mediaevelists of the highest order. An absolute monarchy that masquerades as a society. It fosters Wahabbism. It is a foul, corrupt, totalitarian regime.

 

[Sunni Man]

I guess the Saudis don't understand Islamic law.

The Saudis would have to be the worst example you could use. They are mediaevelists of the highest order. An absolute monarchy that masquerades as a society. It fosters Wahabbism. It is a foul, corrupt, totalitarian regime.

What does "It fosters Wahabbism" mean?