Islamic honor killings becoming more acceptable to Islam?

[LiveUninhibited]

Not by being full of ignorant people you retard.

I don't know if having a nuclear weapon is a very good indicator for the overall intelligence of the populace. Sure, a group of American and German scientists developed the nuclear bomb. What does that have to do with the overall populace? It's not like honor killings are meted out on a national government level.

Wrong, Courts do routinely mete out JUST such punishment in Pakistan. And the Federal level Judiciary seldom over turns the ruling. So much for that claim.

Now remind me? It is ok to call Muslims ignorant fucks but by god you better not insult their religion right?

I wouldn't call local courts part of the national government, but you are correct that a higher court could overturn it. Sure I'd call them ignorant fucks for that and I'd insult any religion... but publically in their case it could get me killed. That does irritate me quite a bit but while the Christians are my neighbors they aren't.

 

[Ravi]

What Muslims in England do is irrelevant to the fact that these honor killings in Chechnya are rooted in a culture of religious intolerance and extremism.

And, in spite of the declaration that Muslims in England do not condone honor killings, honor killings are still practiced by muslims in England.

Kind of a "pay attention to what I say, and not what I do" thing.

12 in the last year, according to the article, while 90% aren't reported...at the very least Muslims that don't support extremism could demand those that do not call themselves Muslims...kind of like the Mormons and the FLDS are obviously two different things.

 

[catzmeow]

Unless the Muslims that don't support it really do, and are just doing damage control.

 

[Diuretic]

BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

That's good, but it isn't good enough. There is certainly nothing in British society that culturally condones honor killings...and there are no secular societies that condone honor killings that I know of. Therefore, it is the religion that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

It is? Why isn't it happening everywhere there are Muslims? If it's a dictate of the religion then surely it should be happening a lot more than it is? Now, for some subtlety.
How about it's happening due to a mix of culture (patriarchal culture where a woman is owned by her father/brother and then her husband) and plain peasant ignorance?

http://www.amews.org/review/reviewarticles/mojabfinal.htm

The article at the link is actually very interesting, it throws up some complex ideas and it's worth a read to try and understand what's going on here. It's too simplistic to put it down to religion and if societies are going to deal with it they need to understand the complexity.

 

[Diuretic]

What Muslims in England do is irrelevant to the fact that these honor killings in Chechnya are rooted in a culture of religious intolerance and extremism.

And, in spite of the declaration that Muslims in England do not condone honor killings, honor killings are still practiced by muslims in England.

Kind of a "pay attention to what I say, and not what I do" thing.

Bradford should be in turmoil if "honor killings are still practiced by muslims in England" (heck I had a hard time keeping in with American spelling there )

"Some" Muslims would be accurate, a fact admitted by the senior Muslims I referenced. And "some" men murder their unfaithful wives. Isn't that a form of "honour killing"?

 

[Diuretic]

12 in the last year, according to the article, while 90% aren't reported...at the very least Muslims that don't support extremism could demand those that do not call themselves Muslims...kind of like the Mormons and the FLDS are obviously two different things.

90% not reported? Where?

 

[manifold]

Hey Di,

You're usually a pretty reasonable guy, so let me see if I actually understand your position here.

Is it your contention that there is no religious element whatsoever to these honor killings?

 

[xsited1]

Islamic honor killings becoming more acceptable to Islam?

This is clearly a growth industry. We could create 'Islamic Honor Killing Kits' for the Muslim man of the house. It would include various sized knives, an AK-47, a large towel, a squeegee and a Koran. I suggest we start selling them in England and then move on to other Islamic countries.

 

[GHook93]

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan...

And in Egypt, Somolia, Turkey, Palestinian, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Afghanistan. Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morrocco, Sudan, Sengal etc.

 

[Diuretic]

Hey Di,

You're usually a pretty reasonable guy, so let me see if I actually understand your position here.

Is it your contention that there is no religious element whatsoever to these honor killings?

Heck I couldn't argue that. It's entirely possible that a peasant who lives in a patriarchical society will rationalise the cultural proposition by saying that his religion authorises or allows or in some other way condones honour kilings of females. Now, that's his position and he would say that wouldn't he (to quote Mandy Rice-Davies).

Now, the more objective question is, "does Islam authorise or allow or in some other way condone honour killings of females." And I don't know if it does or if it doesn't. But it would be useful to look at honour killings in various societies. In the UK, for example, it's illegal because it's murder and "my religion lets me do it" isn't a valid defence. But is it authorised by law in any other country? I don't know the answer to that either. Does the law of another country compel a male relative to kill his female relative to cleanse a stained family honour? I don't know.

Does anyone know?

 

[Diuretic]

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan...

And in Egypt, Somolia, Turkey, Palestinian, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Afghanistan. Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morrocco, Sudan, Sengal etc.

But are male relatives permitted by law to carry out honour killings in these countries?

 

[Diuretic]

Sicilians have honour killings. Calabrians have honour killings. Does that mean that Roman Catholicism is a cause of honour killings?

 

[necritan]

Dont Sicilians perform horse beheadings too???

 

[Diuretic]

Dont Sicilians perform horse beheadings too???

I think, that's relevant in the "Islam encourages horse beheadings" thread

 

[Ravi]

Sicilians have honour killings. Calabrians have honour killings. Does that mean that Roman Catholicism is a cause of honour killings?

No, in those cases crime is the cause of honor killings. And they aren't killing people for sexual activity...they're killing them for acting criminally against their bosses.

I hope you aren't saying Islam is like the mafia. The president in this story seems to have legalized honor killings. While it may be true that Islam doesn't officially allow honor killings, they are guilty of looking the other way...just like the Catholic church is with their pedophile priests.

 

[Diuretic]

Sicilians have honour killings. Calabrians have honour killings. Does that mean that Roman Catholicism is a cause of honour killings?

No, in those cases crime is the cause of honor killings. And they aren't killing people for sexual activity...they're killing them for acting criminally against their bosses.

I hope you aren't saying Islam is like the mafia. The president in this story seems to have legalized honor killings. While it may be true that Islam doesn't officially allow honor killings, they are guilty of looking the other way...just like the Catholic church is with their pedophile priests.

No, I'm not referring to crimes by the Mafia, the Camorra or the Black Hand and so on. I'm actually referring to exactly the same sort of crimes as have been discussed here. A woman has brought shame on the family, a male relative murders her.

Islam isn't a centralised, hierarchical form of religion such as Christianity (in particular the Roman Catholic church) so it's difficult to make that comparison. It would seem though that senior Islamic figures in the UK are in fact condemning these killings. The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

 

[catzmeow]

The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

Chicken or egg. Did these values give rise to Islam, or did Islam give rise to these values?

 

[Ravi]

Sicilians have honour killings. Calabrians have honour killings. Does that mean that Roman Catholicism is a cause of honour killings?

No, in those cases crime is the cause of honor killings. And they aren't killing people for sexual activity...they're killing them for acting criminally against their bosses.

I hope you aren't saying Islam is like the mafia. The president in this story seems to have legalized honor killings. While it may be true that Islam doesn't officially allow honor killings, they are guilty of looking the other way...just like the Catholic church is with their pedophile priests.

No, I'm not referring to crimes by the Mafia, the Camorra or the Black Hand and so on. I'm actually referring to exactly the same sort of crimes as have been discussed here. A woman has brought shame on the family, a male relative murders her.

Islam isn't a centralised, hierarchical form of religion such as Christianity (in particular the Roman Catholic church) so it's difficult to make that comparison. It would seem though that senior Islamic figures in the UK are in fact condemning these killings. The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

I'm not familiar with the Black Hand, etc. But if you can show me that Catholic cultures across the world engage in honor killings I'll admit that it is the religion that condones them.

Islam is connected with these killings...otherwise they wouldn't be happening across cultures and throughout the world.

 

[GHook93]

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan...

And in Egypt, Somolia, Turkey, Palestinian, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Afghanistan. Oman, Saudi Arabia, Morrocco, Sudan, Sengal etc.

But are male relatives permitted by law to carry out honour killings in these countries?

There is De Jure and De Facto laws! Definitely all have a De Facto tolerance of honor killings!

 

[GHook93]

Sicilians have honour killings. Calabrians have honour killings. Does that mean that Roman Catholicism is a cause of honour killings?

What a weak weak weak leftist response!