Did Jesus Know He was Starting a New Movement?

[norwegen]

Jesus was the original con man.

In what way?

He went around telling tales to get a following, I think the name Jesus of Nazareth translates into English as Joel Osteen.

What tales?

 

[Taz]

Jesus was the original con man.

In what way?

He went around telling tales to get a following, I think the name Jesus of Nazareth translates into English as Joel Osteen.

What tales?

Pick a story, any story.

 

[norwegen]

Jesus was the original con man.

In what way?

He went around telling tales to get a following, I think the name Jesus of Nazareth translates into English as Joel Osteen.

What tales?

Pick a story, any story.

I asked you. You pick one.

 

[irosie91]

not his own tales------the NT is written like the
Midrash

 

[norwegen]

not his own tales------the NT is written like the
Midrash

Is that the rash in your midriff?

The NT was written decades after the fact, but of course not in a vacuum. Not absent an oral tradition. Christians started assembling almost immediately following the crucifixion.

 

[Andylusion]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

Matthew 16:18 spells it out pretty clearly.

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

So he fully intended for Peter to be the one that built the Church. Obviously not Peter alone, since there were 12 others, but Peter was whom he was talking to.

So he knew that Peter would form the Church, and he did. He knew that the Church would endure for ages, and it has.

 

[norwegen]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

Matthew 16:18 spells it out pretty clearly.

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

So he fully intended for Peter to be the one that built the Church. Obviously not Peter alone, since there were 12 others, but Peter was whom he was talking to.

So he knew that Peter would form the Church, and he did. He knew that the Church would endure for ages, and it has.

So, is the church the mission of Christ's ministry? Its purpose?

 

[Taz]

Jesus was the original con man.

In what way?

He went around telling tales to get a following, I think the name Jesus of Nazareth translates into English as Joel Osteen.

What tales?

Pick a story, any story.

I asked you. You pick one.

The one about getting to an invible being through him.

 

[The Irish Ram]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

Of course He knew. Before the earth was formed, He knew. Speaking to John in Revelation, He prophesied about those who will believe 1,5000 years into the future and their outcome. He said, His word will never pass away. And it hasn't.

The fact that God made provision for those of us who follow Christ, thousands of years after Christ's death and resurrection, tells us He knew their would be followers. Christ is coming for His own because we are not appointed to God's wrath, and wrath is coming. His plan is to remove us from tribulation which means He knows we are here.
Christ can see the end from the beginning, which means He knows the end from the beginning.

 

[norwegen]

In what way?

He went around telling tales to get a following, I think the name Jesus of Nazareth translates into English as Joel Osteen.

What tales?

Pick a story, any story.

I asked you. You pick one.

The one about getting to an invible being through him.

"No one comes to the Father except through me" (Jn 14:6). That one?

Jesus is declaring something. What makes it a tale?

 

[irosie91]

not his own tales------the NT is written like the
Midrash

Is that the rash in your midriff?

The NT was written decades after the fact, but of course not in a vacuum. Not absent an oral tradition. Christians started assembling almost immediately following the crucifixion.

so true----and they (those you prematurely call "Christians)
began a SELF-PERPETUATING ORGANIZATION. The
midrash is a collection of stories----from oral tradition----
recorded for heuristic value. AESOP did something similar.
The stories are not taken by most people I know as
HISTORIC-----unless you have a strong desire to believe
that King Solomon conversed with ants.

 

[Hawkins]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

The whole setup shows that He knew clearly what's going. What humans don't know are what humans don't know is what human witnessing is.

Matthew 16:17-19
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

He asked Peter to found the Church. Today's Catholic Church reckons that it is founded by Peter.
Hades is a place all dead human will go. He thus knows that the salvation offered (by the New Covenant) will reach humans in majority through His Church such that humans will not all wind up in Hades.

The Jewish meaning of "binding and loosing" signifies an authentication shift, literally from the Jews to the Catholics (more precisely, God withdrew His earthly authority from the Jews and reassign the Church as His new representative). NT Canon is thus designed and enforced by the Church, however the Jews are still the one keeping the legitimate OT Canon. The keeper and enforcer of Bible Canons are God's earthly representatives. First came the Jews thus they are the keeper of the OT Canon, followed by the Catholics as the keeper of the NT Canon. Now this authentication has been extended to the Protestants and thus they are the only intangible authority but keeping both an authenticated OT Canon (same as the Jews) and an authenticated NT Canon (same as the Jews).

Acts 1:7-8
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

To the apostles, they may have taken "ends of the earth" as the whole Roman empire. However literally this becomes a prophecy of today's influence. So it may be in the contrary that the apostles (some of them) may not actually know the final effect of preaching the gospel. However Jesus somehow predicts correctly that the gospel will finally reach the 4 corners of the earth.

There are actually more showing that He knows exactly what's going on.

John 21:22-23
Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”
Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”


This intentionally draws the attention of a set of particular audience. The hidden message here is "no one knows the significance of this verse, but someone who will know its significance will thus pay the attention".

The significance here is about the process of human witnessing which humans till today are clueless about. He's asking 10 out of the 12 (or 11 excluding Judas) to martyr themselves but except for John. Even Peter didn't know clearly why the arrangement.

Today we have "advanced" support of human testimonies. We have video and audio recordings to backup what we said and what we witnessed. However in ancient times the best support of testimonies remains the willingness of death by the eyewitnesses! He's asking the 10 to die for what they have witnessed about Jesus as the first handed eyewitnesses, in order to facilitate a strong witnessing which is capable of reaching the "ends of the earth", and to penetrate time to reach today's mass of humans.

 

[Moonglow]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

The whole setup shows that He knew clearly what's going. What humans don't know are what humans don't know is what human witnessing is.

Matthew 16:17-19
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

He asked Peter to found the Church. Today's Catholic Church reckons that it is founded by Peter.
Hades is a place all dead human will go. He thus knows that the salvation offered (by the New Covenant) will reach humans in majority through His Church such that humans will not all wind up in Hades.

The Jewish meaning of "binding and loosing" signifies an authentication shift, literally from the Jews to the Catholics (more precisely, God withdrew His earthly authority from the Jews and reassign the Church as His new representative). NT Canon is thus designed and enforced by the Church, however the Jews are still the one keeping the legitimate OT Canon. The keeper and enforcer of Bible Canons are God's earthly representatives. First came the Jews thus they are the keeper of the OT Canon, followed by the Catholics as the keeper of the NT Canon. Now this authentication has been extended to the Protestants and thus they are the only intangible authority but keeping both an authenticated OT Canon (same as the Jews) and an authenticated NT Canon (same as the Jews).

Acts 1:7-8
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

To the apostles, they may have taken "ends of the earth" as the whole Roman empire. However literally this becomes a prophecy of today's influence. So it may be in the contrary that the apostles (some of them) may not actually know the final effect of preaching the gospel. However Jesus somehow predicts correctly that the gospel will finally reach the 4 corners of the earth.

Jesus was alive already before being sent to Earth and knew before he went what the deal was...

 

[irosie91]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

The whole setup shows that He knew clearly what's going. What humans don't know are what humans don't know is what human witnessing is.

Matthew 16:17-19
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

He asked Peter to found the Church. Today's Catholic Church reckons that it is founded by Peter.
Hades is a place all dead human will go. He thus knows that the salvation offered (by the New Covenant) will reach humans in majority through His Church such that humans will not all wind up in Hades.

The Jewish meaning of "binding and loosing" signifies an authentication shift, literally from the Jews to the Catholics (more precisely, God withdrew His earthly authority from the Jews and reassign the Church as His new representative). NT Canon is thus designed and enforced by the Church, however the Jews are still the one keeping the legitimate OT Canon. The keeper and enforcer of Bible Canons are God's earthly representatives. First came the Jews thus they are the keeper of the OT Canon, followed by the Catholics as the keeper of the NT Canon. Now this authentication has been extended to the Protestants and thus they are the only intangible authority but keeping both an authenticated OT Canon (same as the Jews) and an authenticated NT Canon (same as the Jews).

Acts 1:7-8
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

To the apostles, they may have taken "ends of the earth" as the whole Roman empire. However literally this becomes a prophecy of today's influence. So it may be in the contrary that the apostles (some of them) may not actually know the final effect of preaching the gospel. However Jesus somehow predicts correctly that the gospel will finally reach the 4 corners of the earth.

Jesus was alive already before being sent to Earth and knew before he went what the deal was...

sorta like little KAEL------(son of jorel) The originator of the
story was a relatively unknown guy. one of Amoz's boys------who predicted the birth of Buraq----

 

[Moonglow]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

The whole setup shows that He knew clearly what's going. What humans don't know are what humans don't know is what human witnessing is.

Matthew 16:17-19
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

He asked Peter to found the Church. Today's Catholic Church reckons that it is founded by Peter.
Hades is a place all dead human will go. He thus knows that the salvation offered (by the New Covenant) will reach humans in majority through His Church such that humans will not all wind up in Hades.

The Jewish meaning of "binding and loosing" signifies an authentication shift, literally from the Jews to the Catholics (more precisely, God withdrew His earthly authority from the Jews and reassign the Church as His new representative). NT Canon is thus designed and enforced by the Church, however the Jews are still the one keeping the legitimate OT Canon. The keeper and enforcer of Bible Canons are God's earthly representatives. First came the Jews thus they are the keeper of the OT Canon, followed by the Catholics as the keeper of the NT Canon. Now this authentication has been extended to the Protestants and thus they are the only intangible authority but keeping both an authenticated OT Canon (same as the Jews) and an authenticated NT Canon (same as the Jews).

Acts 1:7-8
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

To the apostles, they may have taken "ends of the earth" as the whole Roman empire. However literally this becomes a prophecy of today's influence. So it may be in the contrary that the apostles (some of them) may not actually know the final effect of preaching the gospel. However Jesus somehow predicts correctly that the gospel will finally reach the 4 corners of the earth.

Jesus was alive already before being sent to Earth and knew before he went what the deal was...

sorta like little KAEL------(son of jorel) The originator of the
story was a relatively unknown guy. one of Amoz's boys------who predicted the birth of Buraq----

The story is not new just depends on how much LSD they can get their hands on before creating literature.
But it sounds like a Hellenistic influence.

 

[irosie91]

According to some biblical historians, such as Bart Ehrman, most scholars believe Jesus did not know that he was launching a new movement, i.e., the church, because that movement started after his death. If that’s the case, did Jesus fail? What was the purpose of his ministry? What was the “good news”?


I say that Jesus did know what he was bringing to the world, and he quite explicitly says so. What do you say?

The whole setup shows that He knew clearly what's going. What humans don't know are what humans don't know is what human witnessing is.

Matthew 16:17-19
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

He asked Peter to found the Church. Today's Catholic Church reckons that it is founded by Peter.
Hades is a place all dead human will go. He thus knows that the salvation offered (by the New Covenant) will reach humans in majority through His Church such that humans will not all wind up in Hades.

The Jewish meaning of "binding and loosing" signifies an authentication shift, literally from the Jews to the Catholics (more precisely, God withdrew His earthly authority from the Jews and reassign the Church as His new representative). NT Canon is thus designed and enforced by the Church, however the Jews are still the one keeping the legitimate OT Canon. The keeper and enforcer of Bible Canons are God's earthly representatives. First came the Jews thus they are the keeper of the OT Canon, followed by the Catholics as the keeper of the NT Canon. Now this authentication has been extended to the Protestants and thus they are the only intangible authority but keeping both an authenticated OT Canon (same as the Jews) and an authenticated NT Canon (same as the Jews).

Acts 1:7-8
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

To the apostles, they may have taken "ends of the earth" as the whole Roman empire. However literally this becomes a prophecy of today's influence. So it may be in the contrary that the apostles (some of them) may not actually know the final effect of preaching the gospel. However Jesus somehow predicts correctly that the gospel will finally reach the 4 corners of the earth.

Jesus was alive already before being sent to Earth and knew before he went what the deal was...

sorta like little KAEL------(son of jorel) The originator of the
story was a relatively unknown guy. one of Amoz's boys------who predicted the birth of Buraq----

The story is not new just depends on how much LSD they can get their hands on before creating literature.
But it sounds like a Hellenistic influence.

Khat and Mushrooms (hades? in what language did
matthew write--------must I google?)

 

[Hawkins]

He went around telling tales to get a following, I think the name Jesus of Nazareth translates into English as Joel Osteen.

What tales?

Pick a story, any story.

I asked you. You pick one.

The one about getting to an invible being through him.

"No one comes to the Father except through me" (Jn 14:6). That one?

Jesus is declaring something. What makes it a tale?

Do you have any idea how common Greek was back then? Or do you have any idea how common English is today. If you'd write something to reach the ends of the earth, what language will you choose?

What matters is the "account of eyewitness" instead of the "writings of eyewitness". All human history, to a certain extent, can be considered as ultimately from "accounts of eyewitnesses", however it's seldom the case that history are the writings of the eyewitnesses!

Like I said, humans don't know what human witnessing is!!!!!!!!!


Personally, my guess is Matthew may write in Hebrew but what matters is the Greek version of his testimony!

 

[irosie91]

"binding and loosening" means "authentication shift"-----
????? how is that in Hebrew?------in pirkei avot?

 

[Hawkins]

"binding and loosening" means "authentication shift"-----
????? how is that in Hebrew?------in pirkei avot?

You are taking things out of context. In Jewish custom, it's the declaring of God's Law by the priests. The significance of the verses I quoted however are all about the formal declaration of such an authentication shift!

Leave it there for others to read, if you don't know how to read what I said!

 

[irosie91]

What tales?

Pick a story, any story.

I asked you. You pick one.

The one about getting to an invible being through him.

"No one comes to the Father except through me" (Jn 14:6). That one?

Jesus is declaring something. What makes it a tale?

Do you have any idea how common Greek was back then? Or do you have any idea how common English is today. If you'd write something to reach the ends of the earth, what language will you choose?

What matters is the "account of eyewitness" instead of the "writings of eyewitness". All human history, to a certain extent, can be considered as ultimately from "accounts of eyewitnesses", however it's seldom the case that history are the writings of the eyewitnesses!

Like I said, humans don't know what human witnessing is!!!!!!!!!


Personally, my guess is Matthew may write in Hebrew but what matters is the Greek version of his testimony!

it matters how MATTHEW originally wrote it. He was literate
and could probably do both Hebrew and Greek
I would rather not guess. I wonder what word he used for
"church" As to history-----we are working from writings