Zone1 Civil, Ceremonial, and Moral Law in the OT

[SweetSue92]

There is great confusion as to why Christians hold to some OT laws and not others. This can be better understood if you breakdown OT laws for the nation of Israel into three categories:

--Civil Law
--Ceremonial Law
--Moral Law

Civil laws are broadly how to live together as a nation. Ceremonial laws are about how to worship in the tabernacle. Moral laws are how to conduct yourself as a person of God.

The first two--civil and ceremonial laws--are fulfilled. We are not living in the desert as the Nation of Israel. We do not worship in the tabernacle.

The moral laws, such as found in the Ten Commandments, are applicable throughout time.

This should be made more clear by thinking of rules made by parents. At some point, your parents (hopefully) gave you a bedtime. That is a form of a civil law. But you stopped needing 10-12 hours of sleep a night. The bedtime law is not "bad" or "wrong"--it's no longer necessary. The law did what it needed to do when it was necessary.

Hopefully, however, your parents also taught you not to lie or cheat. This law is pertinent when you are six, sixteen, and sixty. This is moral law; it is not made obsolete by differing circumstances (typically).

(A caveat: some say that because the Bible does not have chapters or headings on the Civil, Ceremonial and Moral Laws, these things don't exist. Right. That's like saying because my favorite novel, Pride and Prejudice, does not say "this is a love story between a man and woman of different social classes with a good dose of witty and incisive social commentary included" means it is not....that.

Except it is that, and you can conclude this if you read for comprehension.)

 

[rampart]

There is great confusion as to why Christians hold to some OT laws and not others. This can be better understood if you breakdown OT laws for the nation of Israel into three categories:

--Civil Law
--Ceremonial Law
--Moral Law

Civil laws are broadly how to live together as a nation. Ceremonial laws are about how to worship in the tabernacle. Moral laws are how to conduct yourself as a person of God.

The first two--civil and ceremonial laws--are fulfilled. We are not living in the desert as the Nation of Israel. We do not worship in the tabernacle.

The moral laws, such as found in the Ten Commandments, are applicable throughout time.

This should be made more clear by thinking of rules made by parents. At some point, your parents (hopefully) gave you a bedtime. That is a form of a civil law. But you stopped needing 10-12 hours of sleep a night. The bedtime law is not "bad" or "wrong"--it's no longer necessary. The law did what it needed to do when it was necessary.

Hopefully, however, your parents also taught you not to lie or cheat. This law is pertinent when you are six, sixteen, and sixty. This is moral law; it is not made obsolete by differing circumstances (typically).

(A caveat: some say that because the Bible does not have chapters or headings on the Civil, Ceremonial and Moral Laws, these things don't exist. Right. That's like saying because my favorite novel, Pride and Prejudice, does not say "this is a love story between a man and woman of different social classes with a good dose of witty and incisive social commentary included" means it is not....that.

Except it is that, and you can conclude this if you read for comprehension.)

that explains why we can eat bacon and commit adultry , right?

 

[JoeB131]

This sounds like an awful lot of mental gymnastics to explain why you support some laws in the Bible, but not others.

We don't have slaves or burn witches or stone girls to death for not being virgins because we evolved above that.

God didn't change his mind, we changed ours.

 

[SweetSue92]

that explains why we can eat bacon and commit adultry , right?

Bacon--Ceremonial law
Adultery--Moral Law

 

[JoeB131]

Bacon--Ceremonial law
Adultery--Moral Law

Um, except, no.

The reason why Pork was banned in the Old Testament was kind of practical. It could cause hookworm infections if not cooked correctly because pigs are dirty animals.

Same thing with Shellfish. Some people had allergies, so on one could have it.

As for adultery, well, you God Botherers can't agree among yourselves what constitutes adultery. The Catholics are convinced that it's any second marriage if you didn't bribe the Church to annul the first one.

Not that that matters, We aren't taking young girls out and stoning them because they busted their hymens anymore...

God didn't change his mind, we changed ours.

 

[Meriweather]

Not that that matters, We aren't taking young girls out and stoning them because they busted their hymens anymore...

God didn't change his mind, we changed ours.

'We', Kemo Sabe?

God keeps things simple. Put God/Goodness/Love first, and love one another. We were given Ten unembellished Commandments for each person to keep.

Then what happens? A group of elites decides it is their business to see that each individual is keeping the Commandments. They also decide they must add hundreds of laws to the original Ten to tell people how to keep the first Ten. Oh, and there has to be penalties when people stumble or fail.

So, what do the elites decide? Issues such stoning young teens who have sex...or in our own time, take on the mutilating and castrating the genitals of young teens who even wonder if they were born with the correct genitalia. Make a law there is no need to notify parents of what is being done/told to their children.

My point: "We, the many" most likely never had to change our minds. We are fine with the Ten. It is they, the few, who either use the law for their own wealth and power, or like that Shakespeare scene in Henry VI where the villain suggests doing away with all laws by getting rid of all the lawyers. Easier to manipulate a population who does not know their rights than one that does.

 

[rampart]

SweetSue92

Bacon--Ceremonial law
Adultery--Moral Law

where, in scripture, is this trifurcation of law declared?

In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus says, “Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you,

so put down that pork chop and stop the adultering.

 

[SweetSue92]

SweetSue92

where, in scripture, is this trifurcation of law declared?

In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus says, “Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you,

so put down that pork chop and stop the adultering.

Right. Fulfilling the law is like the 8PM bedtime for kindergarteners. That law is not bad or wrong, and it has not been ruled "abolished". Rather, it is fulfilled. It has served its purpose.

As to your first question: read the OP

 

[JoeB131]

God keeps things simple. Put God/Goodness/Love first, and love one another. We were given Ten unembellished Commandments for each person to keep.

So when God was commanding his "Chosen People" to murder the Amalekites, Philistines, Ammonites, Moabites, Midianites, etc, etc, it was all out of love.

Then what happens? A group of elites decides it is their business to see that each individual is keeping the Commandments. They also decide they must add hundreds of laws to the original Ten to tell people how to keep the first Ten. Oh, and there has to be penalties when people stumble or fail.

Oh, come on, these rules came directly from God, if you believe the bible. The problem is some of these rules make God look like kind of a dick. Because the God of the Old Testament is kind of a dick. Modern Churches try to Disneyfy the stories, or pretend they didn't happen at all. Like our old friend Jephthah.

So, what do the elites decide? Issues such stoning young teens who have sex...or in our own time, take on the mutilating and castrating the genitals of young teens who even wonder if they were born with the correct genitalia. Make a law there is no need to notify parents of what is being done/told to their children.

Ah, now if we could only make a law against fake panics!

My point: "We, the many" most likely never had to change our minds. We are fine with the Ten. It is they, the few, who either use the law for their own wealth and power, or like that Shakespeare scene in Henry VI where the villain suggests doing away with all laws by getting rid of all the lawyers. Easier to manipulate a population who does not know their rights than one that does.

Or we can just say that laws come from a mandate of the people, instead of some constantly needing to be appeased with blood sky pixie. That works much better.

 

[Meriweather]

So when God was commanding his "Chosen People" to murder the Amalekites, Philistines, Ammonites, Moabites, Midianites, etc, etc, it was all out of love.

Show me where this is in the Ten Commandments.

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, come on, these rules came directly from God, if you believe the bible. The problem is some of these rules make God look like kind of a dick. Because the God of the Old Testament is kind of a dick. Modern Churches try to Disneyfy the stories, or pretend they didn't happen at all. Like our old friend Jephthah.

I am discussing the Ten Commandments and how they are meant for each individual to follow.

 

[Meriweather]

Or we can just say that laws come from a mandate of the people, instead of some constantly needing to be appeased with blood sky pixie. That works much better.

Pleasing the Woke Crowd is working so much better?

 

[BreezeWood]

God keeps things simple. Put God/Goodness/Love first, and love one another. We were given Ten unembellished Commandments for each person to keep.

no, moses lied when he claimed stone tablets were etched in the heavens w/ 10 commandments that throughout history have been used to persecute and victimize the innocent.

used by all three desert religions and those crucifiers to circumvent the heavens for their own personal gain and nefarious purposes.

moses, those that wrote in their name their contributions to those desert documents live in turmoil deservedly so till their contempt for the heavens are remedied for them to ever rest in peace.

 

[JoeB131]

Show me where this is in the Ten Commandments.

It's in the Bible, that's the point.

I am discussing the Ten Commandments and how they are meant for each individual to follow.

Okay, good thing we don't stone people for saying "God Damn It" or speaking Yahweh's name, or picking up stick on the sabbath like the bible says to.

Pleasing the Woke Crowd is working so much better?

Yes, what a crazy idea, treating minorities, women, and people of different sexual orientations with respect.

We need to do what the Old School Catholics did when little Timmy started singing show tunes, or when Sally decided she liked other girls. Ship them off the Holy Orders. Then when Fr. Timmy starts molesting kids or Sr. Mary Butch starts tormenting the Children she could never have, we can cover it all up.

Oh, wait. No, thankfully, the "Woke" crowd is just letting gay folks be who they are, and the only people joining the Holy Orders are the real fanatics and the NAMBLA types.

 

[Meriweather]

It's in the Bible, that's the point.

So are the Beatitudes. That doesn't change the fact I was focusing on a discussion of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, good thing we don't stone people

We are to put God (Goodness and Love) first, and love one another. The Ten Commandments are each individual's guide on how to do both.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, what a crazy idea, treating minorities, women, and people of different sexual orientations with respect.

And all others with disrespect? The teaching for all individuals is that we are to love one another.

 

[JoeB131]

And all others with disrespect? The teaching for all individuals is that we are to love one another.

Unless you are gay, or a witch, or worship another sky pixie, in which case Yahweh says to murder those people. Because he loves them.

 

[Meriweather]

Unless you are gay, or a witch, or worship another sky pixie, in which case Yahweh says to murder those people. Because he loves them.

It's not that I don't understand that bitterness has skewed your thinking about God; I'm just surprised it is so deeply embedded, it cannot be renewed.

 

[JoeB131]

It's not that I don't understand that bitterness has skewed your thinking about God; I'm just surprised it is so deeply embedded, it cannot be renewed.

There is no "god", just humans making stuff up to explain the stuff they don't understand. Would I have as much contempt for religion if I wasn't brought up by the Catholic Church? probably

The thing is, I could throw 1000 clergyman off the top of the Sears Tower, and God won't catch a one of them on the way down.