Zone1 Civil, Ceremonial, and Moral Law in the OT

[Meriweather]

The thing is, I could throw 1000 clergyman off the top of the Sears Tower, and God won't catch a one of them on the way down.

Correct.

 

[JoeB131]

Correct.

because he doesn't exist.

 

[Meriweather]

because he doesn't exist.

Not your version of Him.

 

[JoeB131]

Not your version of Him.

Not any version of him.. or her.

There's a whole slew of Gods you don't believe in - Baal, Zeus, Odin, Krishna, Amaterasu, Quetzalcoatl.

I just believe in one less than you do.

 

[Meriweather]

I just believe in one less than you do.

Lame.

What interests me is how others see/perceive God. God is either perceived as a being somehow greater, or the perception is there is nothing greater than what we have and what we are in this life.

Others perceived something whereas you don't. That's the difference.

 

[JoeB131]

Lame.

What interests me is how others see/perceive God. God is either perceived as a being somehow greater, or the perception is there is nothing greater than what we have and what we are in this life.

Others perceived something whereas you don't. That's the difference.

No, I base my perceptions on empirical evidence.

Sure, I'd love for there to be a sunshine heaven where we are all united with our dead loved ones and childhood dogs.

There's just no evidence that it exists.

 

[ninja007]

It's in the Bible, that's the point.

Okay, good thing we don't stone people for saying "God Damn It" or speaking Yahweh's name, or picking up stick on the sabbath like the bible says to.


Yes, what a crazy idea, treating minorities, women, and people of different sexual orientations with respect.

We need to do what the Old School Catholics did when little Timmy started singing show tunes, or when Sally decided she liked other girls. Ship them off the Holy Orders. Then when Fr. Timmy starts molesting kids or Sr. Mary Butch starts tormenting the Children she could never have, we can cover it all up.

Oh, wait. No, thankfully, the "Woke" crowd is just letting gay folks be who they are, and the only people joining the Holy Orders are the real fanatics and the NAMBLA types.

you cannot understand the bible.
1st Corinthians 2:14 says this, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


The unbeliever is the natural man. He cannot understand spiritual things because he uses human wisdom to explain scripture.

 

[ninja007]

No, I base my perceptions on empirical evidence.

Sure, I'd love for there to be a sunshine heaven where we are all united with our dead loved ones and childhood dogs.

There's just no evidence that it exists.

Do unbelievers immediately go to hell when they die?​

Answer

Of all the topics found in the pages of Scriptures, none is so loathsome and dreadful as the subject of hell, yet we dare not be blinded by ignorance, repulsion, or unbelief, for hell is a frightening reality that ought not be dismissed on the grounds of fear or unpleasantness. Despite the objections of some, the flames of hell will not be extinguished by clever Scripture twisting or wishful thinking. The Bible has much to say about hell, and neither ignorance nor denial will cause this grim reality to go away.

We should understand the distinctions Scripture makes between Sheol and the eternal lake of fire. For purposes of this article, we will speak of “hell” as commonly understood: a place of torment after death. The Bible says that the unrepentant who die are immediately ushered into a dreadful holding place called Hades. In the following passage, Jesus details the horrid fate of an unregenerate sinner:

There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.” But Abraham said, “Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.” And he said, “Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.” But Abraham said, “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” And he said, “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.” He said to him, “If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead” (Luke 16:19–31, ESV).

Hades (called “hell” in the KJV) is described as a place of “torment” and “anguish” (Luke 16:23–24). The rich man went there immediately upon his death. Scripture’s teaching is that all who die in their sins will immediately go to hell/Hades, where they will remain, conscious of their misery and despair, until summoned before God at the Great White Throne Judgment. These, who rejected God’s mercy, must face His wrath, and they are eventually judged and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11–15).

The lake of fire, the place of eternal punishment, was never intended for man; God ordained the lake of fire as the final stop for Satan and his army of fallen angels (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Revelation 20:10). Regrettably, legions of unrepentant people will, by their own volition, spend eternity with Satan and the demons who joined his unholy rebellion (Matthew 10:28; 25:46). The poet Milton described the damned as those who prefer ruling in hell over serving in heaven. Indeed, those who choose hell are rebels to the very end.

God does not delight in the suffering of unredeemed man. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and would rather see them turn from their evil ways and live (Ezekiel 33:11). Hell is a necessary reality. Imagine a man who spent his entire life avoiding God. Regarding the Scriptures as fanciful myths, he had no use for Bible reading. He considered prayer a one-sided conversation with a nonexistent being. He maligned sincere Christian believers with unsavory labels and mocked their adherence to biblical morality. From reaching the age of accountability until his dying breath, he distanced himself from his Creator. How, then, could such a man be happy in heaven? How could he tolerate the presence of Jesus Christ and His followers throughout the endless ages to come? For such a man, heaven would be a hell. It is God’s will that none perish, but for those insistent rebels who reject His mercy, there is only justice. No third option exists.

Upon death, the lost are immediately sent to the place of their choosing, Hades (hell), where they will remain until the judgment convened at the close of our Lord’s millennial kingdom. At that time, they will be consigned to the lake of fire along with Satan and his demonic forces. Forever, they will remain fixed in this diabolical state of being.

To think anyone would choose never-ending misery over God’s everlasting joy is unfathomable, yet it is true.

 

[JoeB131]

you cannot understand the bible.
1st Corinthians 2:14 says this, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


The unbeliever is the natural man. He cannot understand spiritual things because he uses human wisdom to explain scripture.

As Mark Twain said, it's not the parts of the Bible that I don't understand that trouble me, it's the parts I understand perfectly well.

Answer

Of all the topics found in the pages of Scriptures, none is so loathsome and dreadful as the subject of hell, yet we dare not be blinded by ignorance, repulsion, or unbelief, for hell is a frightening reality that ought not be dismissed on the grounds of fear or unpleasantness. Despite the objections of some, the flames of hell will not be extinguished by clever Scripture twisting or wishful thinking. The Bible has much to say about hell, and neither ignorance nor denial will cause this grim reality to go away.

Here's the problem.. our images of Hell and Satan have more to do with Dante and Milton than anything in the Bible.

You can't prove Hell exists any more than you can prove Heaven exists.

get back to me when you have proof.

 

[Meriweather]

No, I base my perceptions on empirical evidence.

Sure, I'd love for there to be a sunshine heaven where we are all united with our dead loved ones and childhood dogs.

There's just no evidence that it exists.

It depends. For example, if one looks only at a pure drop of water, the conclusion is that only hydrogen and oxygen exist. Consider, "Is my microcosm of evidence too small?" Is there more to the universe than evidence, which is physical matter?

Speaking of evidence, are you aware there is no evidence gravity exists and that no one really knows what gravity is? There is incomplete understanding of how it even works. What is available are observations, which is pretty much what is available when it comes to both God and the afterlife.

Drop a needle on the ground. The "strong" force of gravity keeps it on the ground, correct? Gravity is not strong at all. Take a refrigerator magnet, wave it over the needle...and that small magnet easily defeats the strength of gravity.

The reason for this comparison is because one of your reasons for God's non-existence is that if a thousand priests jumped off a tall building, God wouldn't catch even one. Interesting point isn't it. We can overcome gravity, but does this prove gravity does not exist? You suggest we can overcome God by a thousand people jumping off a tall building and God catches no one.

One of the Commandments advises, Don't put God to the test. Your own tests of disproving God proves/disproves nothing any more than a needle and a magnet proves or disproves gravity.

 

[ding]

No, I base my perceptions on empirical evidence.

Empirical evidence like the universe popping into existence from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence? Empirical evidence like that?

 

[ninja007]

As Mark Twain said, it's not the parts of the Bible that I don't understand that trouble me, it's the parts I understand perfectly well.



Here's the problem.. our images of Hell and Satan have more to do with Dante and Milton than anything in the Bible.

You can't prove Hell exists any more than you can prove Heaven exists.

get back to me when you have proof.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20)